What I find strange about Lady's sacrifice

[David Selig]

Well then let's rather say Sansa is similar to how Cat was when Cat was Sansa's age. You know, the Cat that flirted and canoodled with Littlefinger with heady abandon. No doubt full of dreams of knights and banquets and tourneys and so on.

Wait, would that be the same LF who considers most knights with their obsession about honour the biggest fools in Westeros (after the Starks)?

[Ifightbadguys]

I think i may have been wrong to say Arya is like Ned when she is more like Lyanna. Although i dont see how she is like Cat (smart and cunning isnt how i would describe Cat)

Yes Sansa built a snow castle but also went to Cersei as she never wanted to return North. Arya is constantly thinking about her brothers/home while Sansa is constatly thinking about knights/how people look. She has however changed as the series has gone on.

They do have the same blood but in my opinion are very different people. For me when i think of the North i think of Arya.

[Cas Stark]

I am a bit of a stuck record on this point, but the fact is, Sansa has very little in common with Cat, at least Sansa as she is at the beginning of AGOT, and arguably has more in common with Arya. Cat is an immensely practical, down-to-earth person with very little interest in romance or songs or court proprieties or beautiful dresses. She doesn't blink an eye at traveling without a maid or a wardrobe, without anyone other than Ser Rodrik, roughing it on the road when necessary, even fighting when she has to. Unlike Sansa, we know she has a head for maths and the practicalities of running not only a household, but an army. She is well aware of political realities and not blind to what courtly life actually is - a political power struggle.

None of this is in any way similar to Sansa. Sansa is no less a Stark, but she's not very much like her mother, at least not yet.

Ha, we agree on something. I don't think Sansa is at all like Cat. Sansa is not practical, like her mother. She resembles and possibly mimicked her mother in surface matters, she looks like a Tully, she prefers the Seven and she absorbed her mother's feelings, at least some of them on Jon Snow, always correcting that he's not her full brother, and feels a desire to go South. She's closer to her father, but not so much there either. She has a little bit of a stoic nature and has certainly perservered, but her passive nature and easy acceptance of Littlefinger's scheming doesn't fit with her father's inflexible sense of honor and right and wrong.

As for Lady's death, I don't see how if the direwolves are to have symbolic meaning that it doesn't mean that her connection to the North is severed. This could be viewed in multiple ways though, she's on her own, she will stay in the South, she will forge a different identity from that of the Starks and the North or she could even die....as her brother did when he stopped listening to the signs his wolf was giving him. That Sansa has survived with no wolf to help her or protect her is a testament to some inner strength she does possess, I'll give her that.

[Mickys]

a question about house symblos. if Sansa is so much like her mother and the Tullys and since house symbols are important in belonging to an family/house, why Sansa has never been associated with a fish?? she's called wolf, little bird, dove but never a fish/trout, her mother symbol. if GRRM wanted people to see Sansa as a Tully instead of a Stark, he could have done it to Sansa or the other "Tully children", but so far he never did.

[mormont]

I think i may have been wrong to say Arya is like Ned when she is more like Lyanna. Although i dont see how she is like Cat (smart and cunning isnt how i would describe Cat)

And yet it would be a pretty good description, actually. She's certainly smart and arguably cunning. She has a couple of emotional blind spots, but so does every smart character.

But mostly, Arya and Cat are alike because they're practical. It's not for nothing that Arya takes Cat as a name.

Ha, we agree on something. I don't think Sansa is at all like Cat. Sansa is not practical, like her mother. She resembles and possibly mimicked her mother in surface matters, she looks like a Tully, she prefers the Seven and she absorbed her mother's feelings, at least some of them on Jon Snow, always correcting that he's not her full brother, and feels a desire to go South.

We don't agree completely, though :). As I said, the evidence that Sansa prefers the Seven is scant, and looking like a Tully is something all of the children except Arya share. As, for that matter, is the attitude that Jon Snow is their 'half-brother' - every one of the kids, even Arya, says this at least once: Bran says it all the time. Because, well, it's a fact. They might have picked it up from their mother - but every other adult in the castle (Ned included) would have agreed with her and said the same. The other children mostly don't hold it against him, of course, but there's no really substantial evidence that Sansa did either.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

I think i may have been wrong to say Arya is like Ned when she is more like Lyanna. Although i dont see how she is like Cat (smart and cunning isnt how i would describe Cat)

Yes Sansa built a snow castle but also went to Cersei as she never wanted to return North. Arya is constantly thinking about her brothers/home while Sansa is constatly thinking about knights/how people look. She has however changed as the series has gone on.

They do have the same blood but in my opinion are very different people. For me when i think of the North i think of Arya.

I personally think GRRM goes to great lengths to tell us and show us Cat's skills as a talent diplomat, smart and cunning. Her mistakes, one of which could only be predicted in hindsight (Arresting Tyrion), and the other trying to preserve her only living children (Sansa and Arya), seem to be extreme moments for Cat.

I think the time when Sansa didn't wanted to return North has long gone. You used a third-book ending scene to compare to a first-book scene. Arya does think a lot about her brothers and home, but so does Sansa. Sansa thinks about naming her sons Robb and Bran and Rickon and Ned, she dreams of Robb, she tells Joffrey that maybe Robb would give her Joff's head, et caetera...

I understand your point of view and I respect it, but when I do think of North, I think of Lyanna, Brandon, Ned and Benjen, Robb and Bran and Rickon and Sansa and Arya. I don't think one of them embodies the North, and if I had to choose one person to embody an entire state (Hardly feasible), I'd pick Jon Snow.

[Sansa_Stark]

a question about house symblos. if Sansa is so much like her mother and the Tullys and since house symbols are important in belonging to an family/house, why Sansa has never been associated with a fish?? she's called wolf, little bird, dove but never a fish/trout, her mother symbol. if GRRM wanted people to see Sansa as a Tully instead of a Stark, he could have done it to Sansa or the other "Tully children", but so far he never did.

Not a trout, but the only time I can think of fishes and Sansa was when "Sansa's mouth opened and closed. She felt very like a puff fish herself."

But yeah given the context of the conversation and the fact that a push fish isn't a trout I don't think its good symbolism.

[Danelle]

I think the time when Sansa didn't wanted to return North has long gone. You used a third-book ending scene to compare to a first-book scene. Arya does think a lot about her brothers and home, but so does Sansa. Sansa thinks about naming her sons Robb and Bran and Rickon and Ned, she dreams of Robb, she tells Joffrey that maybe Robb would give her Joff's head, et caetera...

Not only that, but Sansa never really forgot her family. In SOS she thinks that

But she had not forgotten his words, either. The heir to Winterfell, she would think as she lay abed at night. It's your claim they mean to wed. Sansa had grown up with three brothers. She never thought to have a claim, but with Bran and Rickon dead . . . It doesn't matter, there's still Robb, he's a man grown now, and soon he'll wed and have a son. Anyway, Willas Tyrell will have Highgarden, what would he want with Winterfell?

Sansa thinks of going to Highgarden and to the Reach, because she is well aware of the fact that her brother Robb is the heir to Winterfell. Sansa didn't expect Robb to die, in fact she expected him to marry and have children.

Also, the memory of her family is quite strong, especially in SOS, as you mentioned, she wants to name her sons after her father and brothers but she also thinks of Arya as well.

In Sansa's dreams, her children looked just like the brothers she had lost. Sometimes there was even a girl who looked like Arya.

[Elba the Intoner]

There is one aspect of this incident that I haven't seen discussed and always wondered about. If Sansa had said what really did happen, then wouldn't she have been confirming that Arya struck Joffrey first so hard that it made him bleed? Isn't that a huge no no in this World in which striking the crown prince is a crime punishable by death? It doesn't matter if he deserved it. Sansa was very well aware of the social heirarchy that dominates her world. Jaime confirms this later when, while travelling with Brienne, he thinks about how Cersei had asked him to find Arya and cut off her hand and admits that he would have done that if he had found her first. So, Sansa confirming that Arya struck Joffrey first would have given Cersei all she needed to demand that, at a minimum, Arya's hand be cut off and at the worst have her killed. Maybe this was going through Sansa's mind when she pleaded the fifth.

[A Man Has Said]

Assuming R+L=J

And the Notion that 1 of 1000 Firstmen become skinchangers.

I find it extremely odd that all the Stark children are Wargs including Jon who has 2 completely different parents than the others.

I heard people suggest in her dreams where she is with Lady. Sansa is warging Lady. When you warg with an animal. Over time you become one. Lady was always described as a perfect imitation of Sansa. Sansa could of be the Stark to have the deepest bond with her wolf Who's to say Lady's conciseness isn't still floating around somewhere and Sansa is able to reach out to Lady in her dreams?

Also many think Sansa has been or will soon be skinchanging birds.

We could start from the assumption that these warging powers come exclusively from the Stark First Men's blood*, whether through Ned or Lyanna. Or we could look at it as something that was latent and brought about by their bonding with the direwolves instead of the other way around.

Another way of saying this: Ned, his brothers Brandon and Benjen, and sister Lyanna MAY have become wargs themselves if they too had been given wolf pups.

* - (just to emphasize that this was not exclusively a Stark thing. Varamyr was not a Stark, nor was Orell, nor was Bloodraven. But it's explicit in the text that the Blackwoods were descendants of the First Men and still followed the Old Gods.)

[Mladen]

There is one aspect of this incident that I haven't seen discussed and always wondered about. If Sansa had said what really did happen, then wouldn't she have been confirming that Arya struck Joffrey first so hard that it made him bleed? Isn't that a huge no no in this World in which striking the crown prince is a crime punishable by death? It doesn't matter if he deserved it. Sansa was very well aware of the social heirarchy that dominates her world. Jaime confirms this later when, while travelling with Brienne, he thinks about how Cersei had asked him to find Arya and cut off her hand and admits that he would have done that if he had found her first. So, Sansa confirming that Arya struck Joffrey first would have given Cersei all she needed to demand that, at a minimum, Arya's hand be cut off and at the worst have her killed. Maybe this was going through Sansa's mind when she pleaded the fifth.

Not just that, we have screaming example from D&E story that confirms your train of thoughts.

Another way of saying this: Ned, his brothers Brandon and Benjen, and sister Lyanna MAY have become wargs themselves if they too had been given wolf pups.

I am not so sure about that. Not all Starks are wargs. Some of the KitN were wargs, and some weren't. That is rather simple logic.

[Jô Maltese]

So when Arya clings to her connection to the North, it's 'clear' that it will never be destroyed - but when Sansa does the same thing, we are to write it off as 'nostalgic', and irrelevant to her future? The same evidence is conclusive for Arya's future but irrelevant to Sansa's?

This is known as 'confirmation bias'.

When did this happen? What evidence is there that Sansa has either rejected the old gods or embraced the Seven? And why is it supposed to be significant, even if it's true? Arya, who you insist has this unbreakable connection to the North, explicitly rejects the old gods as well as the Seven. Surely, by your own argument, she's lost her connection to the North by doing so?

'Obviously' here meaning 'I don't have any actual evidence for this, so I'm going to just say it's 'obvious' and hope that'll do'? Sorry, it won't.

Nothing Ned says or does indicates that he considers Sansa to be 'of weaker character' or holds any similar negative opinion of her, nor that he respects her any less than he does Arya.

All of the above posts tell us much about your opinion of the characters, but little about the characters. You're starting from this romantic ideal that Arya, the tough, brave tomboy, is a 'real Stark' and so, of course, her father respects her more, she has a stronger connection to the North, and so on. You then pick and choose evidence, discarding it if it doesn't fit this schema. What this shows us is that you like characters like Arya more than you do ones like Sansa. But it tells us nothing about which has a greater connection to the North, or what their futures will be.

:agree: I wish you commented on more threads on "confirmation bias", especially the ones started by some self-promoted experts! :bowdown:

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

Harry Hardyng will take her hawking so the little bird will have a bird.

I can see this tying into her plot. It would be awesome if she had a hawk. Hawks are badass and so is Sansa (in her own sweet way). I never thought of that, but now I hope it happens.

There is one aspect of this incident that I haven't seen discussed and always wondered about. If Sansa had said what really did happen, then wouldn't she have been confirming that Arya struck Joffrey first so hard that it made him bleed? Isn't that a huge no no in this World in which striking the crown prince is a crime punishable by death? It doesn't matter if he deserved it. Sansa was very well aware of the social heirarchy that dominates her world. Jaime confirms this later when, while travelling with Brienne, he thinks about how Cersei had asked him to find Arya and cut off her hand and admits that he would have done that if he had found her first. So, Sansa confirming that Arya struck Joffrey first would have given Cersei all she needed to demand that, at a minimum, Arya's hand be cut off and at the worst have her killed. Maybe this was going through Sansa's mind when she pleaded the fifth.

Kudos! Yes! Exactly! Her wolf died as a result of her essentially saving Arya, hence the anger in KL.

[Cas Stark]

I can see this tying into her plot. It would be awesome if she had a hawk. Hawks are badass and so is Sansa (in her own sweet way). I never thought of that, but now I hope it happens.

Kudos! Yes! Exactly! Her wolf died as a result of her essentially saving Arya, hence the anger in KL.

We know she didn't do it to save Arya though, because we know that she blames Arya and her father and we know that in fact when she is brought before the queen after Ned is imprisoned that she tells the queen that it is Arya who has trator's blood...not her...she is loyal to Joff, loves him, wants to marry him, etc. etc.

So, I don't think this is a solid reading of the incident. And since Cersei brings up the Targaryen history of assaults on the royal family and Robert blows her off and reminds her that we're talking about children here there is no reason to think he would have done anything to Arya no matter what Sansa said since he leaves it up to Ned to punish her.

Sansa said she didn't remember, not to save her sister, but to save herself, because she didn't want to further harm her relationship with Joff by outing him as a liar and a coward. This seems the most logical reading since she continues to idolize Joff right up until he beheads her father.

[ARYa_Nym]

Everyone already knew that Arya hit Joffrey. Arya told them her side already. Even if she hadn't it was obvious. Joffrey just wouldn't admit that he provoked her, tried to kill her, and bullied Mycah.

We already know that Cersei commanded Arya to have killed anyways which is treasonous since Robert said no to her being punished.

Anyways, how do people know that Catelyn had no interest in romance and songs?

"Jenny of Oldstones, with flowers in her hair. "We're all just songs in the end. If we are lucky."“ She had played at being Jenny that day, had even wound flowers in her hair. And Petyr pretended to be her Prince of Dragonflies. Catelyn could not have been more than twelve. "

^This indicates that she did at least have some interest in it.

We haven't seen Cat when she was young so we can't say she had no crushes. She could have had them yet still was going to do her duty. She was disappointed by Ned so that implies she had at least had some interest in Brandon. Of course she wasn't fawning over Ned in the beginning because he wasn't the one she picked.

I bet what attracts LF to Sansa is what Sansa has in common with Catelyn. Arya would never pretend to be Jenny and dance with him. She'd think that was stupid.

Anyways, on Nymeria there isn't going to be any immaculate conception. Nymeria kills the wolves who try to mate with her so no puppies for her. Summer is going to be near a female wolf soon so he might have puppies. Good luck getting out of that cave though.

[Devaki Khanna]

At first glance that chapter looks like it is about a conflict between Arya and Sansa.

But whose POV chapter is it? Ned's.

I think that chapter tells us not so much that there is a problem with Sansa's character, but a problem with Ned's. Lady would have died either way. Cersei was determined to get a wolf pelt and Robert didn't care enough to stop it. Sansa not speaking up looks bad, but doesn't appreciatively effect events.

What this chapter illustrates is how deeply in denial Ned is about Robert. He isn't ready yet to come to terms with the fact that Robert is no longer the brave take charge war hero type he was during the rebellion.

Too true--and if you look at Lady's death, it is a sacrifice. Ned kills Lady himself--he will not let Ilyn Payne do the deed. It is his decision to accept Robert's offer to be Hand of the King, and it is his decision again to agree to Robert's plan to betroth Sansa and Joffrey. In short, Ned sacrifices Sansa (and her direwolf) on the altar of his friendship with Robert. He had a chance, when Bran fell, to stay back in Winterfell with the girls--refuse the office of King's Hand; refuse the betrothal of his eldest daughter to the crown prince--but he chose to go south to discover the truth.

About the scene where Arya and Joffrey confront each other before Robert and Cersei--I'm sure Sansa must have told her father the truth; so why did her father not prepare her for being questioned by the King? Why did he send her in unprepared to face Robert and Cersei?

If we look at Sansa's relations with her family after her father's death, Robb chooses to sacrifice Sansa to political necessity--he chooses to keep Jaime Lannister prisoner, rather than trading the Kingslayer for his sister(s).

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

We know she didn't do it to save Arya though, because we know that she blames Arya and her father and we know that in fact when she is brought before the queen after Ned is imprisoned that she tells the queen that it is Arya who has trator's blood...not her...she is loyal to Joff, loves him, wants to marry him, etc. etc.

So, I don't think this is a solid reading of the incident. And since Cersei brings up the Targaryen history of assaults on the royal family and Robert blows her off and reminds her that we're talking about children here there is no reason to think he would have done anything to Arya no matter what Sansa said since he leaves it up to Ned to punish her.

Sansa said she didn't remember, not to save her sister, but to save herself, because she didn't want to further harm her relationship with Joff by outing him as a liar and a coward. This seems the most logical reading since she continues to idolize Joff right up until he beheads her father.

The confessions/trial that took place was from Edwards POV, so we don't know exactly what Sansa was thinking. That part of that scene that stands out is that Sansa had told her father the truth before hand, and it is assumed they decided she would plead the 5th to keep Arya safe, not knowing what Cersei would do. When Arya pounces on Sansa for stating she doesn't remember Ned just quiets Arya, doesn't make Sansa speak up even though he knows she remembers. It's his relief we see when when Robert brushes the incident of as kids will be kids, and he insults the kings honor when he calls for Ilyn Payne to kill Lady. Sansa's last POV was the incident by the River, and Joff's anger kills part of her admiration for him (last few lines of her POV). The next time we are in Sansa's head is the tourney. She is angry at Arya, but no longer as blind to Joff's true nature.

[StormRhage]

You know some interesting comments about Ned and Sansa and Lady and her last day alive.

Ned never wanted Sansa to be betrothed to Joff. That was Robert and Cat, Ned didn't like Joff. In fact none of the Starks did except Sansa, she wanted to be with him in a bad way. Ned doesn't have much of a choice in the matter as he lives in a Monarchy, is being pressured by his wife, and Robert actually played the Lyanna card. Note he brings up how the houses should have been bound together already. Robert is trying to live his little Stark fantasy through Joff at this point.

Ned never brought Arya to Robert, it was Cersei. Ned was pissed and asked that Sansa be brought to the audience chamber, because he thought he might need to protect Arya. Sansa had already told him the truth of it, he did not know all the BS Joff was saying, thats why he is shocked that Arya was taken to the king to begin with. Ned had also not slept in 4 days which Martin makes sure to point out, he couldn't even stand that morning, and now he was pissed because the Queen took his daughter without his leave. Do you think Ned likes it when people take his family members?

Ned walked into a packed room and had wished it was empty save him and Robert so they could handle this amicably. He sees his daughter stuck in the middle of the room surrounded by onlookers. A room full of Lannister men and Ned with no support as Renly stood there looking stupid and Selmy stood there looking all grave. The room is pointed out as being hostile.

Ned demanded to know why his daughter was not bought to him at once, then Cersei jumped in yelling at him about how dare he speak to the king in such a way. The Lannisters are all pissed because of all the lies Joff had been telling. Total BS, but why would the truth matter to Cersei.

Ned notices while Joff is lying that he can't even look at Arya which is a classic sign of lying.

The only reason Ned asked for Sansa to begin with is he thought she could help. He had no idea what kind of messed up spectical he was walking into or the lies that were going to be thrown around. He asked for Sansa to speak because he thought she was going to tell the truth and put an end to this mess. Yes he expected his daughter to be honest. Ned was trying to protect Arya, and now he really thought he had to because Joff was lying out his ass. Arya could be in real trouble here, Sansa played the neutral card and lied and said she didn't see. Which may have saved Arya but it didn't save Lady from Cersei.

When Arya knocked Sansa to the ground Ned yelled at Arya and picked her up and asked if she was hurt. In the entire seen shows care for both his daughters and shock at the scene with which he is placed.

Robert wants no part of it but Cersei baited him into a trap in front of everyone, and that is how Lady got killed. How on earth would Ned know Cersei would have Lady killed how would that even make sense for him to think about it? And why on earth would he think the daughter he raised and had already told him the truth would suddenly plead the 5th when Arya could of been in real trouble? Sansa did not think about her Family, she did not think about Lady, he thought about herself. This was after she saw what Joff did to Mycah, after he attacked Arya with a sword and was going to kill her. Oh no that wasn't Neds fault, that was Sansa and Lady paid for it.

Ned begged for Lady to be spared, a Lord begging for a Wolf. He even recalled Lyanna's name to Robert. He didn't beg for Lady because she was his favorite wolf, he begged because he didn't want Sansa to go through that. Ned had tears in eyes when he left the room and bile in his throat. Ned never hung Sansa out to dry, Sansa hung herself out to dry. He stood right next to her, and she had his support. To bad she lied. Though that is a big part of her theme isn't it? Sansa lies. The hound called her on it multiple times, Arya did, and now she is with a master of lies training to be a master liar. For good or for bad, Sansa lies and seems to have started embracing it. Just ask her new Daddy.

Great post, I would add I try not to be too hard on Sansa her parents did not prepare her well ;o( she messed up allot but has paid the price so hopefully she comes out on top. Sweet Ned I loved him but he was an idiot.

[PWT3]

I definitely think Ned (who is one of my favorite characters in the series) was demonstrating character flaws of his own, or at least some emotional problems, in the chapter. His 11-year-old daughter suddenly steps into moral ambiguity after being honest with him, and Ned does absolutely nothing to find out why, or to correct her, in private after the event and the tragic fallout? Sansa's a child, and it's Ned's job to teach her what is important; and Ned has always believed in Honor and Truth (except for, very likely, lying about Jon's origins, which, to be fair, was to save his life), but he doesn't even try to have a sit-down with his daughter about why she failed to tell the truth? Especially when he is escorting that kid into a nest of vipers, no one more serpentine than the girl's future mother-in-law? And Ned does nothing.

I will say this, as far as "Sansa's a child". 11 is not 11 in this series. In fact it's nothing like 11 is in our world.

[StormRhage]

I will say this, as far as "Sansa's a child". 11 is not 11 in this series. In fact it's nothing like 11 is in our world.

Agree, I have no idea why her age always comes as an excuse they are all fairly young in "that" world.