Bakker XXII: All Aboard the Damnation Express

[Kalbear]

It's kind of a long shot for you to try to kill someone and end up making them immortal by accident.

Not precisely - but again, give me an explanation for why they created the sranc and had them ready to roll as soon as the womb plague hit if it was an accident.

Here's an idea. The immortality serum they used was based on what they had already and what they use on their own bodies. Something that it does automatically for Inchoroi is destroy the ability to breed, because they're an enlightened race, so why would they want gestating things inside them? They did some experiments and found out that this would have the effect on nonmen of killing their women. So they thought hey, that's not such a bad way to wipe them out. They didn't invent the womb plague; they repurposed some meds they had sitting around and used them in a different way.

It's still a kind of stupid idea to make your enemies immortal, but it requires no real scientific knowledge.

[Hello World]

Probably because it extends the amount and increases the overall degree of suffering and despair and hopelessness.

But supposedly the Maximum Fun-Fun Ultra Super Happy People despise suffering, so why should they want to spread it? ;)

where the fuck are all the Inchoroi women anyway?

Here's an idea. The immortality serum they used was based on what they had already and what they use on their own bodies

I proposed the crackpot a few threads ago that they did take whatever they gave the Nonmen to become immortal, which lead to the death of all the Inchie females, then the males spent thousands of years in sexual frustration until they built the space ship and took it all out on every other species they encountered, thus becoming the Race of Lovers.

Put another way, they developed a different sort of erraticism. Where the Nonmen could only remember traumatic/violent experiences, the Inchoroi -being the ultimate hedonists- only remembered sexual ones.

[Wise Fool]

But supposedly the Maximum Fun-Fun Ultra Super Happy People despise suffering, so why should they want to spread it? ;)

Because sadism? I thought they were into that sort of thing. Well, vicariously. Like Americans these days. We like our hardcore violence and sex but only on the telly.

[unJon]

@Hello World. The Inchies are not a two gender race. There are hints that the ship that crash landed is their mother. Also they grew mouths after landing so probably grow whatever sexual organs they need. The idea of two genders for sexual reproduction is so pre-singularity.

[Gaston de Foix]

@Hello World. The Inchies are not a two gender race. There are hints that the ship that crash landed is their mother. Also they grew mouths after landing so probably grow whatever sexual organs they need. The idea of two genders for sexual reproduction is so pre-singularity.

Which would explain why Aurax is always off-screen....

I thought the Nail of Heaven was the second ship as well- but then why not try to communicate or ask assistance? They went through some pretty bad moments in their quest...

[unJon]

Which would explain why Aurax is always off-screen....

I thought the Nail of Heaven was the second ship as well- but then why not try to communicate or ask assistance? They went through some pretty bad moments in their quest...

the Nail is definitely something more than the star it seems. No idea what. Would think the nonmen legend would note if it's appearance coincided with the crash landing of the Inchies though.

[lokisnow]

On a side note, I think I read somewhere that Aurang and Aurax were born on the Ark? Is that true or am I misremembering?

I'm not sure why, but I have the impression that Aurang and Aurax may have been in the tank, so to speak, being grafted for sorcery, when the Nonmen warred to cleanse the ark of inchoroi, that's why they were missed, they were immobile being grafted, probably in a tank. Shaeonanra and Mek later found them, and managed to release them.

[Gaston de Foix]

I'm not sure why, but I have the impression that Aurang and Aurax may have been in the tank, so to speak, being grafted for sorcery, when the Nonmen warred to cleanse the ark of inchoroi, that's why they were missed, they were immobile being grafted, probably in a tank. Shaeonanra and Mek later found them, and managed to release them.

that's not correct - Aurang recollects specifically that he was shieldbearer to mighty Sil, the King-After-the-Fall and fought Cu'jara Cinmoi on Pir Pahal.

Scratch that- I misunderstood you. I don't think that's it though- I think they retreated to the Ark and simply hid successfully.

While reading his POV, I also noted that he specifically observed that so few of his children (the skinspies) remain - does that imply the Consult cannot manufacture more of them? They've been sending them with some regularity into the Three Seas.

[Larry of the Lawn]

I still think the whole womb plague thing is just what Bakker needed, plus it lets him play off Tolkiens elves and ents. Although it is very fun to do, I think it's kind of pointless to speculate about the intricacies of the womb plague; I doubt Bakker ever did. Was it a virus? Was it magic? Was it a bacteria? Doesn't matter. The Inchies killed off all the nonmen wives (I do like the idea that the nonmen chose this as the price of immortality though). The nonmen are now immortal and suffer from Can't Remember Shit. Makes for great story.

That is of course, until Serwe starts popping out nonmen-human hybrids that can teleport all over the place.

Not sold on chanv as sorcerer salt either.... I think the passage at the end of TTT was just talking about the value of regular salt. A peasant with a block of salt the size of a person would have hit the lotto.

[unJon]

Part of where the sorcerer salt theory comes from, at least in my mind, is that it's hard to understand what purpose the scene serves otherwise. It's like at the end of the Battle of Shimeh, and it's a section that is only about a page long give-or-take. It's already a pretty random thing to put there...

the scene was about the Synthese and the kid. The salt isn't a mystery. Salt was one of the most valuable commodities in antiquity. See origins for idioms like "worth their salt" and "salt of the earth."

As an aside I've always thought Bakker has a trinket salts a sorcery as a nod to the chemical reaction between an acid and a base.

[unJon]

To what end?

exactly

[Gaston de Foix]

I agree with Unjon. If the origin of Chanv is obscure to the Ainoni it would hardly be apparent to a small boy in Shimeh.

There would be no virtue, I think, in eating Sranc. In fact, the whole taboo over eating them seems peculiar to me.

[Francis Buck]

That is hilarious, and I set that up too unwittingly.

But what's the point, seriously? The reader needs to randomly be reminded that the synthese is creepy just before the epilogue?

It could have simply been to remind the audience of the Consult in general. That basically after all this crazy epic shit with the Holy War and Shimeh and everything has happened, the true battle has even begun, and the true foe is still alive and well.

[Shryke]

It could have simply been to remind the audience of the Consult in general. That basically after all this crazy epic shit with the Holy War and Shimeh and everything has happened, the true battle has even begun, and the true foe is still alive and well.

That was my interpretation.

There's no way a random kid knows where Chanv comes from. Plus, it's called salt for a reason. It's not ashes or anything.

Anyway, as far as I remember from stuff Bakker has said Chanv comes from the east in High Ainon, though I could be wrong about that. I always got the impression it may have come over the mouintains.

[Hello World]

@Hello World. The Inchies are not a two gender race. There are hints that the ship that crash landed is their mother. Also they grew mouths after landing so probably grow whatever sexual organs they need. The idea of two genders for sexual reproduction is so pre-singularity.

Who said anything about sexual reproduction?

Anyway, I was only joking with the sexual frustration thing, I think Bakker gave us some clues in Neuropath as to how the Inchies became the way they are.

The Nail of Heaven could actually show the Inchoroi homeland or a star near it.

I think it's kind of pointless to speculate about the intricacies of the womb plague; I doubt Bakker ever did.

I think this is one of the few mysteries where Bakker did actually contemplate the intricacies involved, and like I said it has something to do with the outside (IMO).

[Anatúrinbor]

Not precisely - but again, give me an explanation for why they created the sranc and had them ready to roll as soon as the womb plague hit if it was an accident.

It makes sense if they were buying time as someone said upthread. Making the Nonmen immortal for a few years isn't going to hurt that much, so long as they have a plan to take them unawares with a massive army of sranc, Bashrag, Wracu, Choraes and who knows what else (maybe even the No-God*), but this plan needs time. By making the Nonmen immortal they gain their complete trust and are able to work in Golgotterath (and to some extent outside of it) unharassed. Also, it would insure that no Inchoroi would die in the intervening years.

*Crackpot: The No-God is actually the Aporos sorcerers' idea. The Inchoroi understood that if the NG is summoned then they have won and it wouldn't matter whether the Nonmen numbers increased, so again, by giving them immortality they gain their trust and are able to work on the No-God unharassed once they get back to the Ark. Except that the Nonman females died and the Inchoroi were forced into a battle that they had not fully prepared for. The Sranc, Bashrag, and Wracu were supposed to be the No-God's army.

This would also explain why the the glossary says that Seswatha was informed that the consult had uncovered lost Inchoroi secrets - their failed attempt to summon/build the No-God.

ETA: The Scranc were not 'ready to roll' by the time the womb plague struck. For that you need Mog.

ETA2: This all assuming that they had the tools to make the Nonmen immortal but they weren't capable of building a biological weapon capable of destroying them all, or it hadn't occurred to them...

[Anatúrinbor]

What's a womb plague anyway? A disease that infects vaginas?

Anyway, I was only joking with the sexual frustration thing, I think Bakker gave us some clues in Neuropath as to how the Inchies became the way they are.

The Nail of Heaven could actually show the Inchoroi homeland or a star near it.

He didn't give us clues, he spelled it out, over and over again.

And how is the NoH going to show the Inchoroi homeland or a star near it?

[Rhom]

What's a womb plague anyway? A disease that infects vaginas?

He didn't give us clues, he spelled it out, over and over again.

And how is the NoH going to show the Inchoroi homeland or a star near it?

Some believe the Nail of Heaven to be a wormhole that the Inchies came through. If that's the case, then perhaps you are looking through that hole and seeing their origin. I like the thought that it is a geosynchronous satellite or mothership left over from their travel through the void.

[unJon]

Some believe the Nail of Heaven to be a wormhole that the Inchies came through. If that's the case, then perhaps you are looking through that hole and seeing their origin. I like the thought that it is a geosynchronous satellite or mothership left over from their travel through the void.

geosynchronous orbits are for satellites at the equator. You can't hang a satellite at the North Pole and leave it stationary. There would be no centripetal force to counteract gravity.

[Kalbear]

ETA: The Scranc were not 'ready to roll' by the time the womb plague struck. For that you need Mog.

not remotely true. The sranc were created in the image of nonmen to terrorize. We see in wlw how you don't need the no god to make the sranc effective. You can herd them and goad them. They were mentioned specifically as weapon races made to fight the nonmen.

I guess it could be an accident, but again - what purpose does it serve to buy time? They reintroduced themselves after all - the nonmen weren't interacting with them at all and hadn't for years. So you're suggesting the plan was for them to go meet the nonmen despite them not caring, make themselves valuable to buy time and then eventually plan on killing them. Or...they could have simply waited and then surprised them completely with huge armies.

Doesn't add up at all.