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R + L = J v 69


Stubby

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I don't think there would be much of an issue with whom his father is, because as you say, Lyse, he does have a direwolf, and no matter how you turn it, he is 50% (and more even in looks, at least his face) Stark.



I don't have the quote on me, but doesn't Jon avoid the place/dream because he knows he'll find truth there, and he's not ready?


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One thing has always concerned me about the marriage cloak/egg/harp in the tomb. Would Ned have taken the chance of carrying said item with him? It seems rather dangerous to have any of those in hand with the baby.



We don't know what the series of events was after Ned was at Starfall, but I suppose if he went right back to Winterfell, it would be OK.


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One thing has always concerned me about the marriage cloak/egg/harp in the tomb. Would Ned have taken the chance of carrying said item with him? It seems rather dangerous to have any of those in hand with the baby.

We don't know what the series of events was after Ned was at Starfall, but I suppose if he went right back to Winterfell, it would be OK.

That is why I see it that Ned took ship from Starfall to Greywater Watch, or some other northern spot and returned directly to Winterfell. He may have made a trip later to talk with Robert, before the Greyjoy rebellion, but I prefer that they reunited during that rebellion.

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Sounds very interesting. And I agree, too many references to Rhaegar's harp have been made to have absolutely no meaning :)

But the harp on the tomb (as the OP suggested) I don't think likely. However, the harp inside the tomb... together with a Targaryen cloak (to symbolize the wedding) it could prove the wedding. But in that case, what would the harp symbolize?

O_o An egg! But that would only make sense if Rhaenys and Aegon had one too, and I don't believe they did.

Say he finds an egg, cloak, and harp IN Lyanna's tomb. I also assume this happens in his dream, or he opens Lyanna's tomb because something in his dream told him to (listening to voices in your head is always a good idea). How would any of these items connect Lyanna to Jon? Wouldn't he think "oh surprise, my aunty married a targaryen."

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Say he finds an egg, cloak, and harp IN Lyanna's tomb. I also assume this happens in his dream, or he opens Lyanna's tomb because something in his dream told him to (listening to voices in your head is always a good idea). How would any of these items connect Lyanna to Jon? Wouldn't he think "oh surprise, my aunty married a targaryen."

Hopefully, what was found there would lead Jon to ask more questions. Also, we must consider the option that it is not Jon that opens the tomb, just that he is informed what is there.

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Hopefully, what was found there would lead Jon to ask more questions. Also, we must consider the option that it is not Jon that opens the tomb, just that he is informed what is there.

Even if he asks more questions, how will he confirm beyond speculation that Lyanna is his mom?

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I don't think there would be much of an issue with whom his father is, because as you say, Lyse, he does have a direwolf, and no matter how you turn it, he is 50% (and more even in looks, at least his face) Stark.

I don't have the quote on me, but doesn't Jon avoid the place/dream because he knows he'll find truth there, and he's not ready?

Im(Jon) walking down this long empty hall. My voice echoes all around, but no one answers, so I walk faster, opening doors, shouting names. I dont even know who Im looking for. Most nights its my father, but sometimes its Robb instead, or my little sister Arya, or my uncle.

Do you ever find anyone in your dream? Sam asked.

No one. The castle is always empty Even the ravens are gone from the rookery, and the stables are full of bones. That always scares me. I start to run then, throwing open doors, climbing the tower three steps at a time, screaming for someone, for anyone. And then I find myself in front of the door to the crypts. Its black inside, and I can see the steps spiraling down. Somehow I know I have to go down there, but I dont want to. Im afraid of what might be waiting for me. The old Kings of Winter are down there, sitting on their thrones with stone wolves at their feet and iron swords across their laps, but its not them Im afraid of. I scream that Im not a Stark, that this isnt my place, but its no good, I have to go anyway, so I start down, feeling the walls as I descend, with no torch to light the way. It gets darker and darker, until I want to scream.

ETA:Exactly what I meant. Jon is afraid of facing the truth of who he really is. He is comfortable with being plain old Jon Snow, but the crypt is calling him to awaken to the truth.

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And the harp is not meaningless - it would be the only way for her to be reunited with the man she loved, and for the rest of Westeros, it's a huge neon sign because no way would Ned Stark bury his sister with a reminder of the man who raped/dishonoured her.

And how are they going to see this neon sign? Is Jon going to go on a tour of Westeros and show the people Rhaegar's harp? And even if he did where is the proof that it was buried in Lyanna's tomb? It is not like he can send out instagram pictures of Lyanna's tomb with the harp next to her skeletal remains.

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And how are they going to see this neon sign? Is Jon going to go on a tour of Westeros and show the people Rhaegar's harp? And even if he did where is the proof that it was buried in Lyanna's tomb? It is not like he can send out instagram pictures of Lyanna's tomb with the harp next to her skeletal remains.

That would depend on who will be present when the tomb is open.

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And how are they going to see this neon sign? Is Jon going to go on a tour of Westeros and show the people Rhaegar's harp? And even if he did where is the proof that it was buried in Lyanna's tomb? It is not like he can send out instagram pictures of Lyanna's tomb with the harp next to her skeletal remains.

Fair point.

That would depend on who will be present when the tomb is open.

Who would have to see it in order for it to have credence (and with whom)?

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That is why I see it that Ned took ship from Starfall to Greywater Watch, or some other northern spot and returned directly to Winterfell. He may have made a trip later to talk with Robert, before the Greyjoy rebellion, but I prefer that they reunited during that rebellion.

Ned and Robert were reunited over their grief over Lyanna. Ned could not travel back north without letting Robert know that Lyanna had died.

But it would be logical for Ned to take a ship back to KL from Starfall, if such a thing is possible while avoiding the Targaryen fleet at Dragonstone.

Say he finds an egg, cloak, and harp IN Lyanna's tomb. I also assume this happens in his dream, or he opens Lyanna's tomb because something in his dream told him to (listening to voices in your head is always a good idea). How would any of these items connect Lyanna to Jon? Wouldn't he think "oh surprise, my aunty married a targaryen."

It wouldn't say anything to Jon, probably, although a dragons egg does immediately make your mind jump to Targaryens, now wouldn't it? But those three items would let the reader know what happened with Lyanna and Rhaegar.

Even Jon might be able to puzzle together that Lyanna wasn't absucted, but married Rhaegar. But mostly, something like that would mean much more to the reader, than it would to Jon.

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ETA:Exactly what I meant. Jon is afraid of facing the truth of who he really is. He is comfortable with being plain old Jon Snow, but the crypt is calling him to awaken to the truth.

Ah, there it is. Thanks so much for quoting that.

Perhaps there lies the answer in why no one is at the castle, not even a horse or raven (why bones, though? Anyone any theory, or did I miss a mention of there always being bones there?). He's dreaming it, he WILL dream it at first, and it's something he'll have to face alone. A physical verification can come later.

And I think there is a chance that it'll be a Harry Potter/Dumbledore at King's Crossing alike dream, that Ned does get to tell him what happened. (Just remember that this author wrote the beginnings of it first, in aGoT. :lol: )

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That is why I see it that Ned took ship from Starfall to Greywater Watch, or some other northern spot and returned directly to Winterfell. He may have made a trip later to talk with Robert, before the Greyjoy rebellion, but I prefer that they reunited during that rebellion.

This is more or less what I think. We know he returned Lord Dustin's horse, and installed Jon and his wet nurse at Winterfell before Cat arrived. One possible route would have him landing at Flint's Finger, whose mysterious Lord we have yet to meet, but which looks to be an appropriate location from which to split into parties heading for GW (Howland), Barrowton (horse) and WF. I fail to see how or why he would send the horse, the baby and his sister's bones (and whatever speculative objects he entombed with her) all on ahead with no escort other than Howland Reed in order to go to KL to do something that could pretty well wait until all of those things had been attended to.

I do however think it possible that he made a trip to KL shortly after, perhaps one that also involved escorting Cat and Robb north or attending Robert's wedding to Cersei.

Hopefully, what was found there would lead Jon to ask more questions. Also, we must consider the option that it is not Jon that opens the tomb, just that he is informed what is there.

Right. It may also be that he finds out what is there after he hears the tale of a certain Howland Reed.

That would depend on who will be present when the tomb is open.

I can think of one southron lord who knew Rhaegar, presumably well enough to recognize the harp (or other potential items), whose sense of honor would demand he tell Jon the truth of what he found and who is presently in the environs of Winterfell ;)

eta-- not to suggest he would understand the meaning of what he found! But that the information, combined with HR's story, might serve as confirmation for Jon and others.

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............., something like that would mean much more to the reader, than it would to Jon.

Exactly, no life changing event for Jon. I kind of think the dream points to something for him personally.

..................HR's story, might serve as confirmation for Jon and others.

I agree, Howland Reed is needed, if he knows ;)
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This might be better for TPatQ thread, but it was something that caught my eye in the story that made me wonder how it could relate to Jon, on the assumption that R+L=J:



Towards the end of TPatQ, Sunfyre, Prince Aegon's dragon, flies to Dragonstone where Prince Aegon has gone, unbeknowst to almost everyone. The maester writing the history speculates that, while no one truly understands how the bond between rider and dragon works, perhaps Sunfyre sensed Prince Aegon's need...anyway, in the context of R+L=J, that sentence stood out for me in the text (one thing is that "need" is actually italicized)...I'm always intrigued by little hints dropped places, but I wondered if we'd see a dragon just show up when Jon truly needs one, sort of Sword of Gryffindor style.


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This might be better for TPatQ thread, but it was something that caught my eye in the story that made me wonder how it could relate to Jon, on the assumption that R+L=J:

Towards the end of TPatQ, Sunfyre, Prince Aegon's dragon, flies to Dragonstone where Prince Aegon has gone, unbeknowst to almost everyone. The maester writing the history speculates that, while no one truly understands how the bond between rider and dragon works, perhaps Sunfyre sensed Prince Aegon's need...anyway, in the context of R+L=J, that sentence stood out for me in the text (one thing is that "need" is actually italicized)...I'm always intrigued by little hints dropped places, but I wondered if we'd see a dragon just show up when Jon truly needs one, sort of Sword of Gryffindor style.

I like the Harry Potter reference, as I'm currently finishing a re-read :-)

I can think of one southron lord who knew Rhaegar, presumably well enough to recognize the harp (or other potential items), whose sense of honor would demand he tell Jon the truth of what he found and who is presently in the environs of Winterfell ;)

Who might that mysterious stranger be? :P

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I like the Harry Potter reference, as I'm currently finishing a re-read :-)

Who might that mysterious stranger be? :P

His discovery of "the truth" might lead him to realize that Jon is his cousin, which may or may not cause him to grind his teeth ;)

eta-- I also appreciate the HP reference :)

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I haven't read the whole discussion (who could do that?) but you all take something for granted as it seems: he isn't child of Ned Stark. Many of you gave tons possible explanations to one thing or another but missed the point.



If there're strong speculations about magic abilities derived from the Whent bloodline, as what appears to be the explanation of all Catelyn's children possession of "magic" in their "blood", and Lyanna's unusual and unexpected skills, probably inherited form her mother or grandmother, then it is even more evident that Jon could be son of Ned Stark and not named other woman.



Think about it for a second.



This special gift isn't strong in Lyanna, if she had it at all, but apparently less evident or not existing in Eddard, Benjen (supported only by a short comment by Roose Bolton) and Brandon Stark. But what about Ned's crippled son, Bran? He has very, very strong gift, result of mixing the blood of two families who probably also had it in their veins.



Wargs, on the other hand, are far more common because we know of at least other 2 or 3 wargs among the Free Folk, adding them those who might have it south of the Wall. Does any other greenseer exist except Bran and the one who he met (though not sure if Bran would become a greenseer)?



It is fair to say that greenseering is more rare occurrence of this gift than shapeshifting. And also it is more likely a normal child to be born of such marriage because the other 4 of Ned's and Catelyn's children do not show any evidence that they have it, at least for now.



If Stark's and Tully's child could become a greenseer what would Jon become if he was the child of Targaryen and Stark? Definitely not a warg I presume.


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I haven't read the whole discussion (who could do that?) but you all take something for granted as it seems: he isn't child of Ned Stark. Many of you gave tons possible explanations to one thing or another but missed the point.

If there're strong speculations about magic abilities derived from the Whent bloodline, as what appears to be the explanation of all Catelyn's children possession of "magic" in their "blood", and Lyanna's unusual and unexpected skills, probably inherited form her mother or grandmother, then it is even more evident that Jon could be son of Ned Stark and not named other woman.

Think about it for a second.

This special gift isn't strong in Lyanna, if she had it at all, but apparently less evident or not existing in Eddard, Benjen (supported only by a short comment by Roose Bolton) and Brandon Stark. But what about Ned's crippled son, Bran? He has very, very strong gift, result of mixing the blood of two families who probably also had it in their veins.

Wargs, on the other hand, are far more common because we know of at least other 2 or 3 wargs among the Free Folk, adding them those who might have it south of the Wall. Does any other greenseer exist except Bran and the one who he met (though not sure if Bran would become a greenseer)?

It is fair to say that greenseering is more rare occurrence of this gift than shapeshifting. And also it is more likely a normal child to be born of such marriage because the other 4 of Ned's and Catelyn's children do not show any evidence that they have it, at least for now.

If Stark's and Tully's child could become a greenseer what would Jon become if he was the child of Targaryen and Stark? Definitely not a warg I presume.

Welcome to the board!

Skinchanging in the text is associated strongly with First Men, which is the bloodline present in the wildling skinchangers, the Stark family and the only other skinchanger we see in the series-- Brynden "Bloodraven" Rivers, via his Blackwood ancestry.

As we have seen zero evidence of Tully skinchangers (outside of the Stark children, who have FM blood on the paternal side) and they have no FM blood it doesn't follow that the Tullys would have anything to do with it, as you suggest.

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