Is Martin's bare bones Winterfell at all realistic as the capital of a million square mile land?

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

Modern Sweden is around 450'000 square kilometers, which is a bit below 175'000 square miles and has 9,7 million inhabitants...

The Swedish Empire in the 1600-1700s was (at it's peak) around 1,1 million square kilometers, which is 425'000 square miles, with 2,5 million inhabitants...

For some reason, I've always figured the population and size of the North was similar to that of the Swedish Empire :) large, with a low population. Since the North isn't as technologically advanced as Europe was in the 1600s, it wouldn't require the same amount of administration (and centralised checks), so it wouldn't have the same problems Sweden did with such a small population (and income). :dunno:

The Swedish Empire was administered from a city with 50 000 inhabitants though, not just a castle out in the middle of nowhere that is so thinly staffed that it can be taken over by twenty men. It wasn't a medieval state either, but still.

Winterfell as it is described sounds very empty. If the Starks would have had a moving court like some medieval monarchs, where they regularly travel between many smaller castles they own as well as "visiting" their vassals, it could be understandable that Winterfell wouldn't be very important as a location for government. But that does not seem to be the case at all. They have ruled from Winterfell for thousands of years and I don't think there's any mention of them owning any other places.

[Jaak]

The Swedish Empire was administered from a city with 50 000 inhabitants though, not just a castle out in the middle of nowhere that is so thinly staffed that it can be taken over by twenty men. It wasn't a medieval state either, but still.

Precisely. Stockholm of 1700 was a city of 50 000 inhabitants. Stockholm of 1520 was not.

At least the 1520 Stockholm was a city, with walls - and with city council, burgomasters and privileges. Winterfell is not.

But how much of a city was Nyköbing of 1318? How about Hatuna of 1310?

[Gneisenau]

Ned could have had a policy of generally letting his vassal manage their local affairs, with Winterfell being like the supreme court of appeal

[Bryanfury]

Ned could have had a policy of generally letting his vassal manage their local affairs, with Winterfell being like the supreme court of appeal

I'm certain this is how it worked. Winterfell left much of the actual ruling of the North to the lords sworn to it. I actually wouldn't be surprised if Manderly was the guy who essentially made sure the North's taxes to the crown are beng paid, as opposed to anyone in Winterfell doing it.

[Trigger Warning]

I'd expect settlements and general infrastructure to accumulate around Winterfell just because it's consistently been a centre of power for so damn long.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

Precisely. Stockholm of 1700 was a city of 50 000 inhabitants. Stockholm of 1520 was not.

At least the 1520 Stockholm was a city, with walls - and with city council, burgomasters and privileges. Winterfell is not.

But how much of a city was Nyköbing of 1318? How about Hatuna of 1310?

But medieval Swedish kings moved around between castles a lot with their courts, mooching off their vassals and checking up how different regions of the country were doing. The Starks actually seem to rule from Winterfell, and have done that for a very long time. Indeed, it is not just the place where they live but also where they draw a lot of their power from, due to how powerful the castle is with its huge walls, glass gardens and hot springs.

Ned could have had a policy of generally letting his vassal manage their local affairs, with Winterfell being like the supreme court of appeal

Even then there should still be a lot of traffic coming there, considering that the North is pretty big.

[Jaak]

Winterfell left much of the actual ruling of the North to the lords sworn to it. I actually wouldn't be surprised if Manderly was the guy who essentially made sure the North's taxes to the crown are beng paid, as opposed to anyone in Winterfell doing it.

He expressly was not. He discovered the tax collectors had been holding the silver to send it to King´s Landing. So the actual tax collectors were in White Harbor, not Winterfell, and they were neither Manderly appointees nor Stark appointees but Baratheon, or more likely Baelish appointees.

[hodorisfaclessman]

I'd expect settlements and general infrastructure to accumulate around Winterfell just because it's consistently been a centre of power for so damn long.

On top of that theres the fact its got warm heated water for the bitter winters and is next to the wolfswood (firewood+ building materials)

We hear of the men of the mountain clans that stannis recruits sending their women and children to the winter towns around winterfell too so you are right there does seem to be settlements all around it

All in all the stark rise to dominace over the north may rest in the manpower these factors mean it can draw on as much as the strength of winterfell itself (and maybe some warg/direwolf powers), there may be a lot of small towns, villages dotted all around the place and spread out

[hodorisfaclessman]

Ned could have had a policy of generally letting his vassal manage their local affairs, with Winterfell being like the supreme court of appeal

The ravens make this a very manageable set up as well, most feudal socities probably had to wait on letters from riders or word of mouth spread by traders and people travelling around their lands ...westeros by contrast has a virtual internet.

[hear me bore]

Agreed. The whole Winterfell falls to Theon and some scrubs was pretty unreal. The heart of the North definitely needs to be better protected with some sort of large town or city nearby.

[hodorisfaclessman]

Agreed. The whole Winterfell falls to Theon and some scrubs was pretty unreal. The heart of the North definitely needs to be better protected with some sort of large town or city nearby.

Theon could have bypassed any towns and villages though, hes grown up in the area

[Jaak]

Winterfell started off with a peacetime garrison of 200 men. This was drawn off - Eddard left with 50 men lost in South, Robb left with some, and Rodrick Cassel led some against ironmen. Do we have actual numbers after Robb was left with 150?

For comparison, look at Windsor Castle. Little in the way of town associated with it.

There were 73 knights owing castleguard at Windsor Castle - which at 40 days per year means a garrison of 8 knights. How many common soldiers in Windsor Castle garrison?

[Bryanfury]

So the actual tax collectors were in White Harbor, not Winterfell

This supports what I said, thanks.

[The Stags Man]

Its an autonomous kingdom

[Jaak]

An example of a peacetime garrison of a major royal castle.

Caernarvon Castle, late 13th century.

Constable

2 sergeant horsemen

10 sergeant crossbowmen

1 smith

1 carpenter

1 skilled craftsman

25 men at arms

So, excluding the craftsmen I get a total of 38 men.

In 1216, Odiham Castle resisted a siege by French for 2 weeks. On surrender, the garrison was found to have been a total of 14. The French were amazed - the median castle garrison sizes reported in wartime were reported around 40...60. But this provides the excuse for Robb and Roderick to have drawn the guard away and not bothered with recruiting new guards. 50 men was supposed to be enough to defend Winterfell, even in wartime. The bulk of 200 men peacetime garrison was standing army reserve - they were there to be drawn off when needed for wars elsewhere.

[Stannis Iron Baratheon]

The realms administration would be be decentralized to the lords and then petty lords and finally the landed knights. Each Landed knight would be in charge of the day to day activity of their peasants and insure that their taxes are collected with the assistance of a steward most likely and then the knights would be under the supervision of their lord etc... Winterfell would only handle the important issues instead of the day to day drudgery and even then the lords had a steward and a maester to keep everything in order. Though there are possibly millions in the north, only a few thousand are in close proximity to winterfell. Wintertown may be small but places such as barrowtown and whiteharbour have larger populations of peasants and most likely more administration staff to compensate for it. Farmers and other peasents may be responsible for getting their taxes and levies due to their lords, only if they fail to provide is someone sent to collect.