Why I don't hate Theon Greyjoy

[Samwell Gamgi]

I don't feel particularly bad for him suffering mutilations. More than anything, it was pure stupidity (very prevalent among the Ironborn) that got him into his messes.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

What sums up the character for me, is in ACOK when he repeatedly thinks about how close he was to getting Jaime. It's annoying and arrogant. It's also kind of heartbreaking that he's so desperate to be seen as worthy, not just by others, but by himself that he needs to boast about something he never accomplished. In his own head. It makes me want to give him a hug.

The best thing about ASOIAF is that characters who aren't terribly likable such as Theon and Cersei can still be human. We can still see things from their perspective. Everyone is the protagonist in their own story. I don't love or hate Theon but his chapters are some of the best in the series IMO.

[BitsOfBrains]

One thing I like about Theon is I think he is one of the only characters that I can be happy about being treated so horribly.

Like if Reek were introduced and we met him as this broken creature then later found out how/why he became what he was I would feel sorry for him. Like Golem, we meet him is this twisted half mad thing and dislike him, then we see him trying to be good and find out he killed his best buddy and we still feel sorry for him.

With Theon we see the entire arc. From this d-bag kid who had the world as his oyster to this backstabbing shit to this mutilated broken thing.

I guess what I am trying to say is I enjoy Theon as a character but I hate him and I guess sort of enjoy watching him suffer. There is so much injustice in these books that its good to see someone get exactly what they deserve.

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

There's a couple things that make me question some of the people who think he deserves what he gets from Ramsay

1) Yea, he had two innocent kids put down to hide his secret. That was heinous. But there are so many other people in the book that do far worse in terms of raping and the pillaging. I wouldn't say it's justice for Theon to be forced to cake himself in shit, have his appendages flayed and left for days before being cut off (and only when he begged for it), forced to take on the name of a sick necrophiliac, starved, whipped, racked, and basically reduced to nothing at the hands of a true monster. On a side note, I got the horrible feeling in the books that Ramsay flayed his genitals and left them to fester before removing them. That's the way the game was played.

2) He's suffering at the hands of the man who is actually guilty of all the things he's suffering for. True, he was the one who took Winterfell, but Ramsay was the one who put it to the torch and slayed the inhabitants, and Ramsay was the one who actually killed the two children. The Bolton's were the more definitive "Turncloaks," hell Roose was the one who put the sword through Robb's heart. Yet Theon is the one brutalized beyond recognition for it, and it's at the hands of the true culprits. If Ramsay had simply taken Winterfell and delivered Theon to Robb, the fact that Winterfell was ever taken from the Starks would have been pretty much completely inconsequential.

3) The entire circumstances surrounding his childhood are fairly heart wrenching in my opinion. He was taken from his family, and obviously he should have realized that his place was with the Starks, but it was still a conflicting situation for him.

Basically, I feel that he's suffered more than enough for his crimes.

[Skagosi High Chef]

Oh, I don't hate the desperate, cowardly, self-centered weakling. I do not forgive what he did, but I do enjoy reading his POV's. Especially the ones with Ramsay in them.

[ghosts in winterfell]

There's a couple things that make me question some of the people who think he deserves what he gets from Ramsay

1) Yea, he had two innocent kids put down to hide his secret. That was heinous. But there are so many other people in the book that do far worse in terms of raping and the pillaging. I wouldn't say it's justice for Theon to be forced to cake himself in shit, have his appendages flayed and left for days before being cut off (and only when he begged for it), forced to take on the name of a sick necrophiliac, starved, whipped, racked, and basically reduced to nothing at the hands of a true monster. On a side note, I got the horrible feeling in the books that Ramsay flayed his genitals and left them to fester before removing them. That's the way the game was played.

2) He's suffering at the hands of the man who is actually guilty of all the things he's suffering for. True, he was the one who took Winterfell, but Ramsay was the one who put it to the torch and slayed the inhabitants, and Ramsay was the one who actually killed the two children. The Bolton's were the more definitive "Turncloaks," hell Roose was the one who put the sword through Robb's heart. Yet Theon is the one brutalized beyond recognition for it, and it's at the hands of the true culprits. If Ramsay had simply taken Winterfell and delivered Theon to Robb, the fact that Winterfell was ever taken from the Starks would have been pretty much completely inconsequential.

3) The entire circumstances surrounding his childhood are fairly heart wrenching in my opinion. He was taken from his family, and obviously he should have realized that his place was with the Starks, but it was still a conflicting situation for him.

Basically, I feel that he's suffered more than enough for his crimes.

:agree:

Especially with #2. People like to ignore that it was Ramsay who manipulated him into giving the order (not that it's much better) and that some of what are perceived as Theon's worst deeds are actually Ramsays. And for #1, if Ramsay is some cosmic punishment, what did all of his other victims do to deserve him?

One thing I like about Theon is I think he is one of the only characters that I can be happy about being treated so horribly.

Like if Reek were introduced and we met him as this broken creature then later found out how/why he became what he was I would feel sorry for him. Like Golem, we meet him is this twisted half mad thing and dislike him, then we see him trying to be good and find out he killed his best buddy and we still feel sorry for him.

With Theon we see the entire arc. From this d-bag kid who had the world as his oyster to this backstabbing shit to this mutilated broken thing.

I guess what I am trying to say is I enjoy Theon as a character but I hate him and I guess sort of enjoy watching him suffer. There is so much injustice in these books that its good to see someone get exactly what they deserve.

This is part of the unmerited/inappropriate response that I mentioned upthread.

[teemo]

Theon is a great character but the way he killed Farlen was just disturbing.

[DJIM]

Theon's chapters in ADWD were the most engrossing imo. For some reason i've been rooting for him from the start, i think it is because i like his name.

[TheButcherCrow]

For me the world is divided into two camps:

1 - those who understand why Theon sided with his father

2 - fucking liars

Theon is the ultimate "there but for the grace of god" story. In that situation, with that upbringing, with that father & that culture, any one of us could have ended up just like Theon & if you don't agree... join group two.

[BitsOfBrains]

There's a couple things that make me question some of the people who think he deserves what he gets from Ramsay

1) Yea, he had two innocent kids put down to hide his secret. That was heinous. But there are so many other people in the book that do far worse in terms of raping and the pillaging. I wouldn't say it's justice for Theon to be forced to cake himself in shit, have his appendages flayed and left for days before being cut off (and only when he begged for it), forced to take on the name of a sick necrophiliac, starved, whipped, racked, and basically reduced to nothing at the hands of a true monster. On a side note, I got the horrible feeling in the books that Ramsay flayed his genitals and left them to fester before removing them. That's the way the game was played.

2) He's suffering at the hands of the man who is actually guilty of all the things he's suffering for. True, he was the one who took Winterfell, but Ramsay was the one who put it to the torch and slayed the inhabitants, and Ramsay was the one who actually killed the two children. The Bolton's were the more definitive "Turncloaks," hell Roose was the one who put the sword through Robb's heart. Yet Theon is the one brutalized beyond recognition for it, and it's at the hands of the true culprits. If Ramsay had simply taken Winterfell and delivered Theon to Robb, the fact that Winterfell was ever taken from the Starks would have been pretty much completely inconsequential.

3) The entire circumstances surrounding his childhood are fairly heart wrenching in my opinion. He was taken from his family, and obviously he should have realized that his place was with the Starks, but it was still a conflicting situation for him.

Basically, I feel that he's suffered more than enough for his crimes.

Saying Theon is getting what he deserve doesn't in any way negate the fact that the Boltons are bad. The two really don't have anything to do with each other. Its like putting out a burning oil spill with chemical foam. Even though the foam put out the horrible hellish burning water, its still a contaminant poison yet that was the only thing that could set the first problem to right. Now comes the time to clean up the foam and I hope the Boltons get theres, but not Fat Walda or little Roose.

And yes killing the millers boys was really wicked, but in my mind betraying the Starks was worse. They were the only people who were ever good to him and he destroyed them.

Bolton said straight up that the Starks were done the night Theon took Winterfell.

[Tardis]

To me Theon is sort of the Gollum of ASOIAF. (I always found Gollum the most compelling character in LOTR) Like Gollum, Theon has done evil things and then been tortured and turned into something pitiable. Theon is my favorite character not because I like him but because he is interesting and has real depth. Sometimes evil things are the most interesting.

I think that's a very good parallel. He is incredibly complex and has definitely developed into one the most interesting characters (probably the most interesting in ADWD). However with Theon I think it's the good side that will prevail in the end, given the fact that he doesn't have a particularly bad side. He was a weak, troubled man in put in a situation he couldn't handle. Now he truly understand how horrible were the things he did, he did redeem himself and found good in himself despite being tortured beyond any measure.

[LovinRC]

IMO, Theon has suffered for sins, imagined sins and much more. He was an arrogant youth and basically chose an easy conquering of WF. He was outsmarted by the Stark boys, killed innocents and paid a mighty price.

I see a man aged beyond his years, suffering at the hands of a very sick man with no way out. He now has my pity which could be deemed worse that hate.

[mushroomshirt]

I think that's a very good parallel. He is incredibly complex and has definitely developed into one the most interesting characters (probably the most interesting in ADWD). However with Theon I think it's the good side that will prevail in the end, given the fact that he doesn't have a particularly bad side. He was a weak, troubled man in put in a situation he couldn't handle. Now he truly understand how horrible were the things he did, he did redeem himself and found good in himself despite being tortured beyond any measure.

Wow, I'm strangely honored that your first post was a response to mine. Welcome & thanks for the compliment!

[Tardis]

Wow, I'm strangely honored that your first post was a response to mine. Welcome & thanks for the compliment!

Oh, thank you and you're welcome. Btw can't wait to see how much will they "ruin" Theon physically in the tv show. Probably he won't look nearly as bad as GRRM describes him in the books.

[Lee-Sensei]

There's a couple things that make me question some of the people who think he deserves what he gets from Ramsay

1) Yea, he had two innocent kids put down to hide his secret. That was heinous. But there are so many other people in the book that do far worse in terms of raping and the pillaging. I wouldn't say it's justice for Theon to be forced to cake himself in shit, have his appendages flayed and left for days before being cut off (and only when he begged for it), forced to take on the name of a sick necrophiliac, starved, whipped, racked, and basically reduced to nothing at the hands of a true monster. On a side note, I got the horrible feeling in the books that Ramsay flayed his genitals and left them to fester before removing them. That's the way the game was played.

2) He's suffering at the hands of the man who is actually guilty of all the things he's suffering for. True, he was the one who took Winterfell, but Ramsay was the one who put it to the torch and slayed the inhabitants, and Ramsay was the one who actually killed the two children. The Bolton's were the more definitive "Turncloaks," hell Roose was the one who put the sword through Robb's heart. Yet Theon is the one brutalized beyond recognition for it, and it's at the hands of the true culprits. If Ramsay had simply taken Winterfell and delivered Theon to Robb, the fact that Winterfell was ever taken from the Starks would have been pretty much completely inconsequential.

3) The entire circumstances surrounding his childhood are fairly heart wrenching in my opinion. He was taken from his family, and obviously he should have realized that his place was with the Starks, but it was still a conflicting situation for him.

Basically, I feel that he's suffered more than enough for his crimes.

I'm not sure why. The only Stark that accepted him was Theon. The others either don't like him or only think of him as a hostage. In fact on the Iron Islands he has at least two people who cared about him more than Robb. So why should he choose the Starks over them?

Saying Theon is getting what he deserve doesn't in any way negate the fact that the Boltons are bad. The two really don't have anything to do with each other. Its like putting out a burning oil spill with chemical foam. Even though the foam put out the horrible hellish burning water, its still a contaminant poison yet that was the only thing that could set the first problem to right. Now comes the time to clean up the foam and I hope the Boltons get theres, but not Fat Walda or little Roose.

And yes killing the millers boys was really wicked, but in my mind betraying the Starks was worse. They were the only people who were ever good to him and he destroyed them.

Bolton said straight up that the Starks were done the night Theon took Winterfell.

Maybe in the TV Series.

In the books he only one Stark really cares about him. Theon was a hostage and the only one he owed anything was Robb as a friend. And even then, family comes first. You wouldn't expect Robb to choose Theon over his family and the Northereners, right? It's the same thing.

One thing I like about Theon is I think he is one of the only characters that I can be happy about being treated so horribly.

Like if Reek were introduced and we met him as this broken creature then later found out how/why he became what he was I would feel sorry for him. Like Golem, we meet him is this twisted half mad thing and dislike him, then we see him trying to be good and find out he killed his best buddy and we still feel sorry for him.

With Theon we see the entire arc. From this d-bag kid who had the world as his oyster to this backstabbing shit to this mutilated broken thing.

I guess what I am trying to say is I enjoy Theon as a character but I hate him and I guess sort of enjoy watching him suffer. There is so much injustice in these books that its good to see someone get exactly what they deserve.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'had the world as his oyster'. He was a hostage. As for him being a backstabber.. he chose his family over Robb. There's nothing wrong with that.

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

Saying Theon is getting what he deserve doesn't in any way negate the fact that the Boltons are bad. The two really don't have anything to do with each other. Its like putting out a burning oil spill with chemical foam. Even though the foam put out the horrible hellish burning water, its still a contaminant poison yet that was the only thing that could set the first problem to right. Now comes the time to clean up the foam and I hope the Boltons get theres, but not Fat Walda or little Roose.

And yes killing the millers boys was really wicked, but in my mind betraying the Starks was worse. They were the only people who were ever good to him and he destroyed them.

Bolton said straight up that the Starks were done the night Theon took Winterfell.

In my opinion, it does take away from the justice of it all.

There is no real justice in Ramsay being able to torture Theon with impunity over crimes he himself committed. Roose can say whatever he wants to rationalize when and how Robb lost the war-- the undeniable fact is that had he ordered Ramsay to retake Winterfell and deliver Theon to Robb, the fact that the castle was ever held by the Ironborn becomes a moot point. It's like some of you give Roose a free pass for his betrayal, which was far more devastating to the Stark cause, and born purely out of self interest and greed. Theon at least chose family over Robb.

To anybody who might think that Ramsay acted alone in deciding to sack Winterfell, please. Roose may or may not have been involved with the Hornwood business, but there is no way Ramsay would have attacked what is essentially the capital of the North without his fathers leave. No way he could possibly do that and expect to keep his head.

[10simpsa]

When I first started the books I quite liked him, then I hated him, and now I just feel sorry for him.

[johnnysd]

:agree:

Especially with #2. People like to ignore that it was Ramsay who manipulated him into giving the order (not that it's much better) and that some of what are perceived as Theon's worst deeds are actually Ramsays. And for #1, if Ramsay is some cosmic punishment, what did all of his other victims do to deserve him?

This is part of the unmerited/inappropriate response that I mentioned upthread.

So basically you are saying if Hitler were tortured by Mengele who was a sicker fuck than him, that somehow that makes the retribution somehow less deserving? No it just means that Mengele himself needs to be tortured and die a horrible death

[johnnysd]

For me the world is divided into two camps:

1 - those who understand why Theon sided with his father

2 - fucking liars

Theon is the ultimate "there but for the grace of god" story. In that situation, with that upbringing, with that father & that culture, any one of us could have ended up just like Theon & if you don't agree... join group two.

This argument also failed horribly at the Nuremberg trials. There ARE absolute evils in the world and not everyone would choose that path just because of the situation or the culture they were in. There WERE German youths that refused to be part of what was going on. Just because you believe that everyone is a weak fuck that would cave to the type of pressure exerted on Theon does not make it true. Nor does it justify, explain or forgive his actions in the series, regardless of his personality weakness upbringing or whether or not other characters are more evil than he is.

[Sullen]

This thread has turned full-on Godwin it seems.