Why the Kingsmoot is Awesome & Necessary [spoilers]

[johnnysd]

I think threads like this make four general mistakes:

1. Assuming that the show is going completely off the rails and not following the books at all

2. Underestimating just how much time they have in the show to work with

3. There is a lot more fluff and less actual plot in Books 4 and Book 5 together than Book 3, especially since some of Book 4 has already been seen in season 3. (Cersei, Margaery rivalry)

4. Quite a few major characters become somewhat less major this year :)

First of all, I think it is almost not possible at this point to be more faithful to the books. Sure there have been consolidations, and changes but the fact remains that pretty much every single major plot point in the books has also happened in the show. Said another way, if someone only read the series once, they would think watching it that it was word for word just like the books. It is only readers like the ones here, and especially ones that are especially fond of certain characters and plot lines that think there are drastic changes to the story. I think it is very reasonable to think that the major plot points of the Iron Island characters will still be hit.

Second, it looks like Asha may be captured this season and not be part of the Kingsmoot. Without all the internal dialogue that we know about almost no one would think "why isn't Yara there" and indeed they may have a conversation where she says that she should be there to Stannis or someone to address it. But the entire Kingsmoot would probably only take like 30-40 mins of screen time to be done well and to introduce Aeron, Victarion and the horn and even have them well into if not completed with their actions in ADWD with 30 or 40 minutes below.

So just because they are not included this year and Asha likely being captured does not mean that the Iron Island plotlines would be short changed, In fact it looks like they are going out of their way to keep them involved so when the brothers are introduced it is logical.

[johnnysd]

I think threads like this make four general mistakes:

1. Assuming that the show is going completely off the rails and not following the books at all

2. Underestimating just how much time they have in the show to work with

3. There is a lot more fluff and less actual plot in Books 4 and Book 5 together than Book 3, especially since some of Book 4 has already been seen in season 3. (Cersei, Margaery rivalry)

4. Quite a few major characters become somewhat less major this year :)

First of all, I think it is almost not possible at this point to be more faithful to the books. Sure there have been consolidations, and changes but the fact remains that pretty much every single major plot point in the books has also happened in the show. Said another way, if someone only read the series once, they would think watching it that it was word for word just like the books. It is only readers like the ones here, and especially ones that are especially fond of certain characters and plot lines that think there are drastic changes to the story. I think it is very reasonable to think that the major plot points of the Iron Island characters will still be hit.

Second, it looks like Asha may be captured this season and not be part of the Kingsmoot. Without all the internal dialogue that we know about almost no one would think "why isn't Yara there" and indeed they may have a conversation where she says that she should be there to Stannis or someone to address it. But the entire Kingsmoot would probably only take like 30-40 mins of screen time to be done well and to introduce Aeron, Victarion and the horn and even have them well into if not completed with their actions in ADWD with 30 or 40 minutes below.

So just because they are not included this year and Asha likely being captured does not mean that the Iron Island plotlines would be short changed, In fact it looks like they are going out of their way to keep them involved so when the brothers are introduced it is logical.

[franko99]

Just my two cents:

Bryan Cogman has said Aeron is one of his favorites characters, and he really want to write him for the show. So far in the story, all Aeron has done is call the kingsmoot and be our eyes into the election itself. That makes me believe there will be a kingsmoot and all of the Greyjoy brothers will be there, but maybe not this season

[Douglas Dubh]

Maybe, but if they wanted to cut somewhere, the Ironborn would be the easiest. A lot of could be told through second hand dialog - "A raven just arrived from my man in Pyke. Balon is dead and his brother Euron has seized the throne." "We've received word from Oldtown - the Shield Islands have been attacked by the Iron Fleet." They could probably wait to introduce the rest of the Greyjoys until they actually start interacting with one of the already established characters.

Another streamline they could make is to merge two of the three "traveling to Meereen" threads. Maybe Tyrion and Jorah get captured by the Iron Fleet instead of random slavers, or Quentyn and his associates are traveling on the same ship so interact.

While I am still skeptical they will get all the way through both dance and feast by the end of season 5, I definitely could see them cutting the Kingsmoot.

[Colonel Green]

Still I think they won't cut the whole ironborn subplot, because:

- Every season they introduce quite a handful of new characters of various significance, why should they change this at S5? In past seasons they even introduced characters who had really a minor role (for example, Orell or Matthos, even they could have been skipped, and replaced with a narrative).

There's a big difference between introducing minor characters within an existing plotline (as with Orell, who was there to supply some conflict) and creating a whole new storyline. And Season 5 is still going to have a ton of new people, in the Vale, in Braavos, in King's Landing, in wherever Brienne and Jaime end up going, in Meereen, in the North, etc.

- They already established the Iron Islands onscreen. And built the castle of Pyke set. Why not use it in future seasons to come?

The fact that they had sets to use in earlier seasons does not mean that they're going to justify a whole subplot's inclusion because of it. I'm sure they built any number of sets that are going to get a lot less use going forward.

- Avoiding the ironborn subplot alltogether would be pretty awkward. So, Balon dies (which we will see onscreen or don't), but afterward we won't hear a peep from the Iron Islands, or the ironborn just appear as a nameless mass just doesn't seem right.

Isn't that pretty much what they did last season? The Ironborn were hardly featured, and the general audience didn't seem particularly to care (there were plenty of "wait, who are these guys?" reactions when Balon and Yara showed up in the finale).

- They did a very thorough job of establishing the great houses of Westeros, showing the major players and who rules which kingdom. Only the Martells are left, but I think they'll get to them in time. In this perspective, why would they skip the Greyjoys in the future seasons?

Because there's only so much room, and not everything needs to be its own plot. I could say much the same about Dorne, honestly; Arianne could debut in season 6 as emissary to Aegon and Jon Connington and how much would really change? (I think Dorne's chances of full inclusion are better since it's got lots of sexy ladies in it, mind you)

[teemo]

It would look great on-screen, like someone else said. The Kingsmoot is awesome. They better not cut it o.O

[Hath4]

I actually think season 5 has the potential to be really good . combining books 4 and 5 will create a lot of story to tell which is good because it will keep the pace moving. The reason many hated the more recent novels was book 4 left out John Danny and Tyron's arcs out. That will not be a problem in the show. Plus the end with John getting stabbed and the ramsey letter would both be great cliffhangers. some cuts will half to be made, but it still has the potential to be really good.

[John Hulboy]

I am looking for ward to the kings moot. The iron born are important to I imagine a great scene with Euron showing up with dragon horn.

[protar]

What are we talking about here guys? The only reason to cut out the Kingsmoot (one of the most exciting events from AFFC), would be if they were cutting out the Ironborn subplot entirely. That would give the writers an even greater headache than keeping it in, given the important role Victarion has to play in Essos.

It's really not the only reason. They could easily have Euron just take the throne outright. This would save a lot of time and allow them to get the Ironborn characters merging with the main plots earlier. It's a cool event that I'd love to see, but ultimately not completely necessary.

ETA: The Dragonhorn is a small problem, as that was a great introduction scene for it in the books. Euron just saying, "here's my horn" doesn't work as well.

[Tixu Oty]

Just an idea, regarding the horn. They could have some sort of an official coronation thing, where Euron exposes his plans to an assembly of Ironborn and blows his Dragon horn. I mean the scene could work without it having to be a Kingsmoot.

[JagLover]

You raise some good points, but I would argue that those two statements present some problems: Yes, with AFFC/ADWD several new players enter the game... the problem is that the game is far from concluded from the rest of the players, who have been around since season 1/2 and whom the audience cares about. Want it or not, for most of the audience (I most of the readers, I'd say), the story IS about Tyrion, Dany, Jon, Jaime, Cersei, the Stark kids and the Lannisters brothers, the dragons and White Walkers. All those players have been set up from the beginning but have yet to fulfill their purpose. None of them (the REAL big players, Ned was just the Obi-Wan of AGOT and Robb was a diversion) have died, all of them are waiting, trainning. And we (readers, audience) want to see the resolutions to those characters and storylines.

After four seasons following them, the show cannot shove them aside and focus on totally new players (who will NOT -and should NOT- have a bigger role in the endgame than the real main characters).

Fully agree

In the book it didn't matter as much because what I, and many others, consider the 'key' characters still had plenty of time devoted to them. In the show there is going to be a very limited amount of time and If it comes to a choice between cutting out slices of Arya's or Jon's storyline in order to make room for the Ironborn, Quentyn etc and the rest I wonder how most would vote.

[JagLover]

I think threads like this make four general mistakes:

1. Assuming that the show is going completely off the rails and not following the books at all

2. Underestimating just how much time they have in the show to work with

3. There is a lot more fluff and less actual plot in Books 4 and Book 5 together than Book 3, especially since some of Book 4 has already been seen in season 3. (Cersei, Margaery rivalry)

4. Quite a few major characters become somewhat less major this year :)

Point 1 follows from point 2.

Your assessment of the time constraints then comes through into what needs to be cut.

Let us see what we do know.

1. A widely believed assumption that this will be an 8 season show (still very long for an HBO show)

2. A further 5 seasons to cover the remainder of ASOS and a further 4 books (the last two of which have a massive amount of plot to cover)

Knowing all that I believe there needs to be major surgery on AFFC/ADWD in order to give sufficient time for the established characters to give their stories justice.

[Damp Hair - The Prophet]

Yes, Cogman saying Damphair is a fave character & one he'd like to write has significance, as does GRRM indicating Aeron's POV chapter(s) in TWOW have him doing big things on the isles.

Those of you saying,"well, just have a scene w/ Crowseye barging into a throne room saying I'm king mow & btw I have this horn" are misunderstanding cinema. Showing, not telling, is advantageous, and economy/utilty is what you look for in editing time constrained TV. One complaint against GoT is that it's too much people talking in a throne room for example.

The Kingsmoot shows the stunning effect of the dragonhorn in use, shows a unique new location (Nagas Ribs), intros several new characters in one scene (like the S2 Dragonstone intro did) and w/ their appeals & gifts shows their character instead of telling about them. It's exactly the type of multifunctional scene a good writer would hope to incorporate .

[Starkfaithful85]

I have been telling my friends this for years, i hope I'm wrong, but I believe the show will lose a lot of viewers after the 5th season, I think this will happen because there are entirely too many storylines for ten episodes and too many new characters are introduced. I think that HBO will end up making 4 movies out of the last two books, financially it would be a gold mine to make people pay for a movie ticket to see the conclusion of this story. Like I said I hope I am wrong but I believe that this show will either have to seriously omit a lot of material from AFFC and DWD or will have to seriously deviate from the structure to continue to keep the quality of the show at the the level that we love.

[Tangbrand]

I have read on WiC.net (as you probably all had), that Ralf Kenning, the ironborn commander of Moat Cailin left behind by Victarion has been cast for S4. Now, I know that this still doesn't mean anything certain about introducing the Greyjoy uncles or showing the Kingsmoot in the future, but I think that - in light of these news - there's a good chance that Balon will die in the first half of S4, and they will at least mention Victarion.

[King Tommen]

I have read on WiC.net (as you probably all had), that Ralf Kenning, the ironborn commander of Moat Cailin left behind by Victarion has been cast for S4. Now, I know that this still doesn't mean anything certain about introducing the Greyjoy uncles or showing the Kingsmoot in the future, but I think that - in light of these news - there's a good chance that Balon will die in the first half of S4, and they will at least mention Victarion.

Not sure why this news would be a surprise once we saw Theon riding with his peace flag into Moat Cailin in the trailer. He needs to interact with an Ironborn commander there in order to secure the surrender. Ralf Kenning was the guy who did this in the books (sort of), he'll almost assuredly be the guy on the show. He'll probably be in all of 2 scenes until he's served his purpose.

What would this have to do with Victarion or Balon? In show canon, Balon sent different commanders to different Northern strongholds to take them. Victarion was never mentioned and unless he's showing up (which he won't in S4), why would you mention him and confuse the audience?

[Tangbrand]

What would this have to do with Victarion or Balon? In show canon, Balon sent different commanders to different Northern strongholds to take them. Victarion was never mentioned and unless he's showing up (which he won't in S4), why would you mention him and confuse the audience?

Mostly it has to do with Balon. What I was pointing at is that many argued about when will Balon die in the series. Although the S4 trailer had a hint that we will have the Moat Cailin plot this year, Kenning makes it 100% sure. And I think that makes very sure that Balon will die, and he will in early S4. Most assuredly in the series Ralf Kenning is left behind with only a handful of men defending Moat Cailin (just like in the books). The reason for that is the death of Balon. Probably the series will explain why is the garrison so small with Balons death too, and maybe, just maybe they will mention Victarion as somekind of foreshadowing for his character.

[Frumpus]

you'd be crazy to think they wouldn't film this scene.

it'd look beautiful on screen

They won't film it because Euron, Vicatorion, and Aeron were cut (as been hinted at in interviews). There won't be an Ironborn storyline beyond Theon/Yara most likely.

People are overestimating the importance of the Ironborn in the overall plot. There's a reason D&D are able to excise them completely. There's a reason they chose to have Yara go after Theon immediately after finding out about his fate. It is an original storyline not found in the books.

[Damp Hair - The Prophet]

Black Sails had a huge premier for Starz. Crossbones w/ John Malcovich on NBC is coming soon. Expect GoT season 5 to have a pirate of their own in Euron Crowseye. He's like that, never having given up the old ways. Vicatarion is the ultimate soldier. Aeron is a religious prophet. They are very different & won't/shouldn't be merged. Their differences & relationship to each other is what produces this thing called "drama" that TV is all about. Look how much people.enjoy the drama of scenes when the Lannisters get together.

[Tangbrand]

They won't film it because Euron, Vicatorion, and Aeron were cut (as been hinted at in interviews).

I'd really like to see those hints.