The "Everyone's going to die anyway" syndrome

[Tixu Oty]

Hi all. I'm fairly new to posting on this forum though I've been lurking for a few months.

I started watching the show less than a year ago and after watching season two I really HAD to read the books. ASOIAF is probably my new favorite book now.

So I tried getting some family members to watch the show/read the books. And while I fully understand that not everyone might like this type of story, I have trouble understanding some unsullied show watchers sometimes.

Specifically my sister.

We watched season one together and have started on season two. She says she's interested in the story, but I don't know if she'll keep on watching long.

Her problem: after Ned died, it's hard for her to feel invested with any of the characters because well, "this is the type of show where all the characters I like are going to die anyway." So why bother? I think she's already figured out that Robb is going to die. She's pretty smart like that, my sister.

Anyway, when I watch a show/read a story, I don't care if the characters die, I'm still interested in the general story. Though I like the awesomeness of the character, I sometimes find them even more awesome when they die, and anyway I like the awesomeness of the story better. So I have trouble relating.

Plus, I can't really reassure her because obviously I don't know the end of the story.

I'm sure many of you have had this type of response from casual show watchers. How do you guys react to it? Any insights, stories to tell about this?

[Mother of Mini Dragons]

I shrug my shoulders and move on. I just find that if someone can't enjoy a book or show like this without certain characters, then they just don't really get it anyway. So I'd move on to having discussions with those who do. There is so much more to these stories than certain characters and sometimes those deaths are necessary b/c they fuel the stories that follow. If Ned hadn't died, then there would have been none of the events that followed. So while you're upset that he dies, you understand why it's necessary and how it adds to the rest of the story. The folks that don't get that - just aren't going to get it and are probably not in it for the same reasons that I am anyway.

[protar]

I think that the death aspect is pretty exaggerated. If you actually look at how many major character deaths there are it's really not as much as you'd think. My friend was pretty bummed out about the Red Wedding. I had to tell him Dany was still alive in the books to calm him down and give him a bit of hope. He says if Dany dies he's out.

[Tixu Oty]

Well, actually I was going through a thread about the death rate in ASOIAF and the conclusion I got from this is it's about 30% of the main character which is quite a lot!

And it's funny what you said about your friend because I know there are a lot of people here who are die hard fans of certain characters, and I wonder how you guys might react if their fav character dies ?

Since I read ADWD Theon went from maybe 4th to 1st favourite character for me. I know he might die, and if it happens, I certainly won't stop watching/reading, but I hope he has a great death, and I'll enjoy the aura that cool characters get after their death.

[protar]

Well I'm talking about the really major character deaths. The sort which a lot of other fiction isn't really ballsy enough to go with. A lot of fiction kills off moderately major characters. But if we look at the really big, game changing deaths what do we have? (spoilered just in case) -

• Viserys
  
• Robert
  
• Ned
  
• Drogo
  
• Robb
  
• Cat
  
• Joffrey
  
• Tywin
  

That's only 8 in about 4000 pages of fiction. The entirety of the second book and a good half of the third book are without any major character deaths and then after the Red Wedding the only two big character deaths are villains who are pretty standard targets in any fiction. From then on there have been no big character deaths. Obviously there are a lot of smaller but still fairly big deaths as well, but those are the stand out ones imo. Only 3 are POVs.

[Annara Snow]

Hi all. I'm fairly new to posting on this forum though I've been lurking for a few months.

I started watching the show less than a year ago and after watching season two I really HAD to read the books. ASOIAF is probably my new favorite book now.

So I tried getting some family members to watch the show/read the books. And while I fully understand that not everyone might like this type of story, I have trouble understanding some unsullied show watchers sometimes.

Specifically my sister.

We watched season one together and have started on season two. She says she's interested in the story, but I don't know if she'll keep on watching long.

Her problem: after Ned died, it's hard for her to feel invested with any of the characters because well, "this is the type of show where all the characters I like are going to die anyway." So why bother? I think she's already figured out that Robb is going to die. She's pretty smart like that, my sister.

Anyway, when I watch a show/read a story, I don't care if the characters die, I'm still interested in the general story. Though I like the awesomeness of the character, I sometimes find them even more awesome when they die, and anyway I like the awesomeness of the story better. So I have trouble relating.

Plus, I can't really reassure her because obviously I don't know the end of the story.

I'm sure many of you have had this type of response from casual show watchers. How do you guys react to it? Any insights, stories to tell about this?

Well, everyone is going to die eventually, unless one of them cracks the secret of eternal life... but not everyone is going to die in the story. Only a few of the major characters have died, so what makes her think that every character will be dead at the end of the story?

And generally, when it comes to the "I don't want to read and get attached, since the character can die" attitude, I think GRRM gave the best answer to that (I think it was in his Nerdist podcast interview) - imagine if you applied that attitude to the real life. Everyone you know will be dead one day. No one lives forever.

Imagine going through your life trying to not get attached to anyone, ever, just because they could die before you do.

[Tixu Oty]

Well obviously "everyone" here is a figure of speech. By that she means, a lot of characters, including and/or especially important characters will die. And so far, yes clearly asoiaf IS that type of story, and so is game of thrones.

And your other comment is interesting. Clearly, people who fear to get attached to fiction characters who might die don't have the same approach at all in real life. As far as my sis goes, she's a nurse, so she knows quite a lot more about death than I do, but I have a feeling it's irrelevant somehow.

It's like some people have this need to only read/watch fiction when you can rely on the good guys to live and be fine in the end. And I'm trying to understand why.

[Mr Smith]

I know how you feel. I love the story BECAUSE Martin kills characters off and continues to surprise me. For me, no character is more important than the overall story arc, and I will accept anything that improves the quality of the storytelling (which Ned and Robb's deaths certainly did). Tyrion was my favourite character from books 1-3, but as he gradually gets darker, I don't feel upset, because its a natural development for his character and important for the story. I think the simple fact is that if you're so attached to characters that you'll stop watching/reading if they die, you shouldn't be watching/reading the show/book in the first place.

[Seneti]

Well obviously "everyone" here is a figure of speech. By that she means, a lot of characters, including and/or especially important characters will die. And so far, yes clearly asoiaf IS that type of story, and so is game of thrones.

And your other comment is interesting. Clearly, people who fear to get attached to fiction characters who might die don't have the same approach at all in real life. As far as my sis goes, she's a nurse, so she knows quite a lot more about death than I do, but I have a feeling it's irrelevant somehow.

It's like some people have this need to only read/watch fiction when you can rely on the good guys to live and be fine in the end. And I'm trying to understand why.

Actually, from this perspective your sister's reaction makes a lot more sense: she clearly sees enough of death and sadness in real life. Don't forget that many people do not read/watch books/shows for some kind of enlightenment, but for entertainment. That's why - usually ! - fiction is a world where odds can be defied, happy endings occur where they wouldn't in real life and justice prevails. It's an escape from the horror and sadness of everyday life. In that regard, escaping into a book/show like ASOIAF/GOT is like moving out of a burnt down house only to have your new home burn down a month later (dramatic comparison, I know, but still).

[Tixu Oty]

Hmm I don't know. It might make sense for my sister, I don't know what's going on in her head, but I doubt that's the case for all the people I sometimes see online commenting that the show sucks because everybody dies. Yes they watch for entertainment, but so do I! It's just not the same thing that keeps us entertained. You seem to say some of us like to defy the odds in our entertainment and others like to be safe in their entertainment. Sounds like we all have issues. (which might very well be the case, but I was hoping for some deeper understanding).

[Daske]

My main watching partner has just accepted that 'everyone is going to die', so it's all good for him when his favourite characters make it to the end of the next episode. Personally, I feel much more this way about The Walking Dead - they just all seem like they are on borrowed time living minute to minute.

[Overlord of Skagos]

I'm more worried about the future

"Everybody is going to get resurrected by Thoros/Mel" syndrome. Something even us book readers take for granted with Jon for example

[Oneorobertsbastards]

That's the reason for this forum, no? I've been trying to get my husband to read the books for years. He's totally into the show, but he finds the page count of the series too daunting (don't misunderstand, he's not a dummy, the guy is a fighter pilot and reads as much as I do). I thought at first it was the stigma of being a fantasy genre reader, but honestly I really think it's the page count. Anyway I have no one to discuss the series with, and even if I did I doubt I would find people that had the insight I've seen on here.

So for whatever reason I can't convince anyone to get into it the way I am, so I default to this place, and I'm glad my inability to find people IRL with a common interest led me here.

[Le Cygne]

The And Then There Were None perception, it's definitely a problem with the books and show, there's this absence of hope. I've talked to people who lost interest in the show because they say things like, what's the point in caring, they're all going to die. Even fans of the romances, who are usually hopeful, think everyone will be miserable in the end.

I like the books a lot, because I think he's a good storyteller, but I think it's a serious flaw of the books. I never felt that there was no hope when I was reading Lord of the Rings. But there's this absence of hope in this series, that everyone is doomed, that's what I would guess is going on.

[Tixu Oty]

In the Lord of the Rings there is a purpose. So it's different, because we know where the story is supposed to go. It's a quest. There's no such thing in asoiaf. We still don't know what the point of all this is.

You know, your comment just made me think of something. I don't like all stories that end badly. I saw a movie some time ago. I think it's called the Mist or something. I didn't like it because when all was said and done it seemed pointless. Everybody died, well at least the characters who mattered. They killed themselves because there was no hope, when actually they were only minutes from salvation. So in a way I guess I get the no hope feeling. But I don't get that sort of feeling in say, Hamlet. Why is that?

[Le Cygne]

We sensed Hamlet was doomed from the start, perhaps. Dude was never going to be happy.

It wasn't the purpose that made me hopeful in LOTR, it was that there wasn't incessant misery. There was Haldir saying this:

"The world is indeed full of peril and in it there are many dark places. But still there is much that is fair. And though in all lands, love is now mingled with grief, it still grows, perhaps, the greater."

There was Sam saying where there's life, there's hope. You knew there was good in the world, and in some small way, good would triumph over evil, if only in the hearts of the characters.

I don't get that sense in ASOIAF. I get the sense they're all going to be miserable. I hope for little things, that maybe they'll know someone cared in the end, and was thinking about them, before they die some terrible death. Like Arya and Jon, they were thinking about each other all the time, will he ever muss her hair and call her little sister again? And look what happened!

[franko99]

There was Sam saying where there's life, there's hope. You knew there was good in the world, and in some small way, good would triumph over evil, if only in the hearts of the characters.

I don't get that sense in ASOIAF. I get the sense they're all going to be miserable. I hope for little things, that maybe they'll know someone cared in the end, and was thinking about them, before they die some terrible death. Like Arya and Jon, they were thinking about each other all the time, will he ever muss her hair and call her little sister again? And look what happened!

GRRM has said the end will be bittersweet, so not everyone will be miserable or death by the end, there's some hope for some characters, and anyways, no matter how the story ends, I did enjoy the journey, not just the destination (so to speak).

I like that quote you post, and in this story there is this conflict between good and evil in the heart of the characters, George likes to say he writes about "the human heart in conflict with itself" (and most of the times our characters choose the "good"), even if many characters will die or not achieve what they always wanted, that doesn't mean we should lost all hope of good and happiness in the story.

As for the OP: Not everyone enjoy the same kind of fiction, most of the people I know read book, or watch movies to "escape" from everyday life, they're eager to see a happy and corny story where the good guy alway wins. There's reason most hollywood movies have a happy cliché ending, there's enough grief in this world to seek more of it in literature, or that's what most people think.

[Born Sinner]

Saying that there is no hope in ASOIAF is not true. Sure, many characters will die and many will follow but characters like Tyrion, Dany and Jon Snow are so safe that it actually kind of bothers me. Also GRRM said his ending would be bittersweet so there actually is a lot of hope. Many people on this forum think Jon will be king in the end that doesn't sound hopeless to me.

[franko99]

I'm more worried about the future

"Everybody is going to get resurrected by Thoros/Mel" syndrome. Something even us book readers take for granted with Jon for example

Oh please, I pray to every god the show does away with all the faux death/resurrections, if there's one think I didn't like at all about the last 2 books, is this "

Death and guest right … They don’t mean so much as they used to"

[Le Cygne]

GRRM has said the end will be bittersweet, so not everyone will be miserable or death by the end, there's some hope for some characters, and anyways, no matter how the story ends, I did enjoy the journey, not just the destination (so to speak).

I just dread what's to come, and I never felt that way reading LOTR. I can't explain it any better than I have, I guess. He could add a dash more sweet on the journey.

GRRM, intro to Dreamsongs II:

"Stories of the human heart in conflict with itself transcend time, place, and setting. So long as love and honor and pity and pride and compassion and sacrifice are present, it matters not a whit whether that tall, lean stranger has a proton pistol or a six-shooter in his hand."