The "Everyone's going to die anyway" syndrome

[Le Cygne]

Arwen and Aragorn found happiness together, not forever, but she knew that. Faramir and Eowyn (she's the one in my icon!) found happiness together, too. Sam found happiness, and many others... Grey Havens was always part of the story, too. It was the next part of the journey. I never found any of that depressing...

[SkaggCannibal]

Some people had/have enough shit in their lives they only want to look at happy, fun things on tv/in movies instead of the realistic and sometimes painful stuff. I don't if your sister is like that but my mom and grandma are like that. You can't really blame them.

[YTDN]

Some people had/have enough shit in their lives they only want to look at happy, fun things on tv/in movies instead of the realistic and sometimes painful stuff. I don't if your sister is like that but my mom and grandma are like that. You can't really blame them.

I don't like it when people say 'realistic' as if only the sad and painful things are realistic. Using the LOTR example, there are depressing things (like the fading of the Elves, Boromir dying, the Scouring of the Shire, Frodo going to the Havens, the fact that all the characters will eventually die of old age) but there are also happy things (like the beauty and innocence of the Shire, the friendship that forms between the Fellowship, the love between Aragorn and Arwen and Faramir and Eowyn, the fact that despite all odds Sauron is defeated). Yes, it's unrealistic to have everyone be happy and nothing bad happen, but it's equally unrealistic to have everyone be miserable and nothing good happen.

Sometimes ASOIAF seems to err a bit too much on the side of 'reality is miserable and horrible and believing that good actually exists means you're dumb and you'll get killed.' Which is both depressing and stupid, because (to quote Samwise Gamgee) there is good in the world and it is worth fighting for.

Apologies for the rant. It's a pet peeve of mine.

[Abaddon]

Arwen and Aragorn found happiness together, not forever, but she knew that. Faramir and Eowyn (she's the one in my icon!) found happiness together, too. Sam found happiness, and many others... Grey Havens was always part of the story, too. It was the next part of the journey. I never found any of that depressing...

I found a lot of it quite bittersweet, so to each his or her own I suppose. Frodo in particular was never really happy, he had horrible knife/ring-PTSD (LOL) the rest of his days in Middle Earth.

Anyway, this is all pretty off-topic, so I will stop with that.

[Le Cygne]

I don't like it when people say 'realistic' as if only the sad and painful things are realistic. Using the LOTR example, there are depressing things (like the fading of the Elves, Boromir dying, the Scouring of the Shire, Frodo going to the Havens, the fact that all the characters will eventually die of old age) but there are also happy things (like the beauty and innocence of the Shire, the friendship that forms between the Fellowship, the love between Aragorn and Arwen and Faramir and Eowyn, the fact that despite all odds Sauron is defeated). Yes, it's unrealistic to have everyone be happy and nothing bad happen, but it's equally unrealistic to have everyone be miserable and nothing good happen.

Sometimes ASOIAF seems to err a bit too much on the side of 'reality is miserable and horrible and believing that good actually exists means you're dumb and you'll get killed.' Which is both depressing and stupid, because (to quote Samwise Gamgee) there is good in the world and it is worth fighting for.

Apologies for the rant. It's a pet peeve of mine.

All of this. Exactly.

[Le Cygne]

I found a lot of it quite bittersweet, so to each his or her own I suppose. Frodo in particular was never really happy, he had horrible knife/ring-PTSD (LOL) the rest of his days in Middle Earth.

Anyway, this is all pretty off-topic, so I will stop with that.

Bittersweet, yes. My point was, I don't get the sense ASOIAF is going to end as well as LOTR.

It's not off topic! We're talking about the way the story is written, and and the effect the story is having on viewers. We are using other examples for comparison. LOTR is a key example, since the author himself brings it up often. He's a big fan of Tolkien.

[Abaddon]

Bittersweet, yes. My point was, I don't get the sense ASOIAF is going to end as well as LOTR.

It's not off topic! We're talking about the way the story is written, and and the effect the story is having on viewers. We are using other examples for comparison. LOTR is a key example, since the author himself brings it up often. He's a big fan of Tolkien.

Okay... not off-topic...

I do agree that GRRM's bittersweet is likely to be more bitter than Tolkien's. For all of the difficult things that happen in LoTR to the characters, virtually none of the heroic main characters die. The ones that do die valiant deaths (Theoden) or somewhat redeem their misdeeds (Boramir). I am sure there are others but I can't think of any right now... I think that's more what GRRM's issue (if you can call it that) with LoTR is, simply that all of the good guys making it through relatively unscathed is just not realistic to him. Most of the bitter (for me at least) comes from the sense of magic and wonder leaving Middle Earth never to return. The hypothetically more YA Hobbit is more "realistic" or at least balanced in the sense that we see multiple heroic characters dying.

So, I guess I am not really ready to write off some of the main heroic characters living past the series and being relatively happy just yet... remember, "it is always darkest before the dawn" :D

[protar]

The And Then There Were None perception, it's definitely a problem with the books and show, there's this absence of hope. I've talked to people who lost interest in the show because they say things like, what's the point in caring, they're all going to die. Even fans of the romances, who are usually hopeful, think everyone will be miserable in the end.

I like the books a lot, because I think he's a good storyteller, but I think it's a serious flaw of the books. I never felt that there was no hope when I was reading Lord of the Rings. But there's this absence of hope in this series, that everyone is doomed, that's what I would guess is going on.

I've actually always thought that the books (and by extension the show) were hopeful in a weird sort of way. Beneath all the grit it's all quite romanticised with the larger than life characters and the esoteric settings and costumes. Martin somehow keeps things fun which allows the reader to feel hope.

[franko99]

Well, since Tolkien hs been brought up in this discussion, the Quenta Silmarillion also have that sense of "no hope" in the story, since the Oath of Fëanor and the kinslaying of Aqualondë (and the curse of Mandos) the Noldor, and pretty much all the elves in Middle-Earth are doomed. At first it seems there is some hope, but as the story progress one by one all the characters and every kingdom of Beleriand falls to Morgoth, and appart from Beren and Lúthien, no one seems to have a "happy ending", hell, compared to the children of Hurin, the Starks are just having a bad year, it is only after all hope is gone, that the Valar decided to assist elves and mens.

Of course, since we know Morgoth will eventually be defeated, the reader always knew how the story will end, but other than that I don't think ASOIAF is really much worse :dunno:

[Broken Fox]

Episode 8: I really love this Red Viper dude. What a badass! Finally things are looking up.

Episode 9: FUCK THIS SHOW

[Le Cygne]

Episode 10: Dany crowdsurfs nude!

I said the darkest before the dawn thing, too, but maybe light a candle here and there. The last couple of books were pretty grim. Trying to think of some happy things in them, and all I can come up with is people having sex. The fat pink mast among that (I liked that scene!)... And that's something that wasn't in LOTR, sex.

[YTDN]

Well, since Tolkien hs been brought up in this discussion, the Quenta Silmarillion also have that sense of "no hope" in the story, since the Oath of Fëanor and the kinslaying of Aqualondë (and the curse of Mandos) the Noldor, and pretty much all the elves in Middle-Earth are doomed. At first it seems there is some hope, but as the story progress one by one all the characters and every kingdom of Beleriand falls to Morgoth, and appart from Beren and Lúthien, no one seems to have a "happy ending", hell, compared to the children of Hurin, the Starks are just having a bad year, it is only after all hope is gone, that the Valar decided to assist elves and mens.

Of course, sincey, we know Morgoth will eventually be defeated, the reader always knew how the story will end, but other than that I don't think ASOIAF is really much worse :dunno:

Actually, the Valar don't help when all hope is gone. They help when Earendil and Elwing sail across the sea with the Silmaril to ask for aid, a journey that seemed impossible. And the Silmaril was only retrieved by the heroics of Beren and Luthien, and their love led to Elwing being born. And Earendil was only born thanks to the love of Tuor and Idril, which only bloomed because the city of Gondolin was protected by the sacrifice of the House of Hador. And so on and so on. The Silmarillion is full of hope- the hope that despite Morgoth's power seeming inescapable, the courage and love of ordinary people could lead eventually to the salvation of Middle Earth.

There's also the very strong theme of the value of noble deeds in itself- even if they fail, even if there really is no hope, you should try to do good. It's the thought that counts basically. Although this is more of a philosophical difference between JRRT and GRRM, and I can forgive GRRM for not subscribing to it.

Anyway, why are we talking about Tolkien? This is an ASOIAF board! :laugh:

[Le Cygne]

GRRM loves Tolkien. We are trying to figure out why the viewers are so hopeless about the show. And "someone" (wonder who) brought it up as a comparison. I think it's a worthy comparison since the author himself makes it. Here are a few quotes (oh, and please note, he thinks sex and romantic love are important, so it's fine for silly people like me to talk about the romances in the story, just saying):

"I was very satisfied with the end of the Lord of the Rings, let us say. Talking about predictability here -- I had a sense, even as a kid, that the ring was going to go in the volcano. They weren't going to let Sauron take over the world. But he surprised me in that Frodo couldn't do it. Bringing in Gollum the way he did was an amazing part of the ending, and then came the scouring of the Shire. And when I was 13 years old, reading this, I didn't understand the scouring of the Shire. They won -- why are there all these other pages? But I reread these books every few years, and every time my appreciation for what Tolkien did there grows. It was this kind of sad elegy on the price of victory. I think the scouring of the Shire is one of the essential parts of Tolkien's narrative now, and gives it depth and resonance, and I hope that I will be able to provide an ending that's similar to all of that."

"The battle between Good and Evil is a theme of much of fantasy. But I think the battle between Good and Evil is fought largely within the individual human heart, by the decisions that we make. It's not like evil dresses up in black clothing and you know, they're really ugly. These are some of the things that Tolkien did; he made them work fabulously, but in the hands of his imitators, they become total clichés. I mean the orc-like creatures who always do dress in black and... they're really ugly and they've got facial deformities or something. You can tell that if somebody's ugly, he must be evil. And then Tolkien's heroes are all very attractive people and all that, of course, again this became cliché in the hands of the Tolkien imitators."

"Life is very full of sex, or should be. As much as I admire Tolkien -- and I do, he was a giant of fantasy and a giant of literature, and I think he wrote a great book that will be read for many years -- you do have to wonder where all those Hobbits came from, since you can't imagine Hobbits having sex, can you? Well, sex is an important part of who we are. It drives us, it motivates us, it makes us do sometimes very noble things and it makes us do sometimes incredibly stupid things. Leave it out, and you've got an incomplete world...

"I think sex is important; it's not in a lot of fantasy. It's an important part of human beings, the way we interact with each other."

"Sexuality, once again, I think it's an important driving force in life. It motivates most of the things we do, and it's one of the root things that defines who we are. And yet you find it strangely missing from fantasy, even from some very good fantasy. I admire J.R.R. Tolkien vastly, I think all modern fantasy derives from Tolkien, and Lord of the Rings is one of the great works of this century. Nonetheless, it does have flaws, and I think its almost complete absence of women, and of anything even approaching sex and/or romantic love -- it reflects its time and its place, but it's certainly not something I wanted to do."

[YTDN]

GRRM loves Tolkien. We are trying to figure out why the viewers are so hopeless about the show. And "someone" (wonder who) brought it up as a comparison. I think it's a worthy comparison since the author himself makes it. Here are a few quotes (oh, and please note, he thinks sex and romantic love are important, so it's fine for silly people like me to talk about the romances in the story, just saying):

Hah, I was just making a joke. But thanks for the quotes!

[Le Cygne]

I know, I didn't take that seriously. I just think it's a really interesting discussion.

So if we look at this: But I think the battle between Good and Evil is fought largely within the individual human heart, by the decisions that we make.

The show could play this up. Why do the characters do the things they do. Motivation. They have to draw people in more this way. So the throwaway scenes, Pod the sex god, prostitute torture, Littlefinger micromanaging a brothel, no one is saying nudity is bad, but work it in other ways. Sex is another thing he likes and we like it, too. But we can see that anywhere. Show us love. Unconventional love stories are the hallmark of this series. And that doesn't just mean romantic love. Love can be shown in many ways. A stranger can show love for another stranger.

[Tixu Oty]

I've actually always thought that the books (and by extension the show) were hopeful in a weird sort of way. Beneath all the grit it's all quite romanticised with the larger than life characters and the esoteric settings and costumes. Martin somehow keeps things fun which allows the reader to feel hope.

I said the darkest before the dawn thing, too, but maybe light a candle here and there. The last couple of books were pretty grim. Trying to think of some happy things in them, and all I can come up with is people having sex. The fat pink mast among that (I liked that scene!)... And that's something that wasn't in LOTR, sex.

There's also the very strong theme of the value of noble deeds in itself- even if they fail, even if there really is no hope, you should try to do good. It's the thought that counts basically. Although this is more of a philosophical difference between JRRT and GRRM, and I can forgive GRRM for not subscribing to it.

Anyway, why are we talking about Tolkien? This is an ASOIAF board! :laugh:

I think it's great to compare asoiaf and got to other great books or shows.

And I know that although asoiaf is very dark, not all is dark in it. I guess I want to see just how much of it is hopeful.

And yes the noble epic actions are a big part of what makes JRRT's work magical. Asoiaf really isn't like that at all, but still, there are noble characters in the story that we so want to root for and they make the story epic. Think about Brienne (and Dunk) and Davos, the true knights of the story. There's Jon too. The new Theon may even be getting there too.

Sam also is somewhat like that. I liked the pink mast scene, but I think what was beautiful about it, ws not the sex in itself, but that we know, and they know, that this moment will not last long. Gilly has tears in her eyes, and they're only free while they're on the sea. They're to be back to harsh reality soon and they know it. So it's a glass a tenth full kinda scene... So I wouldn't say it's entirely hopeful, but yes, Good is there, in a sad way, and it's nice enough to me.

[Tixu Oty]

The show could play this up. Why do the characters do the things they do. Motivation. They have to draw people in more this way. So the throwaway scenes, Pod the sex god, prostitute torture, Littlefinger micromanaging a brothel, no one is saying nudity is bad, but work it in other ways. Sex is another thing he likes and we like it, too. But we can see that anywhere. Show us love. Unconventional love stories are the hallmark of this series. And that doesn't just mean romantic love. Love can be shown in many ways. A stranger can show love for another stranger.

I thought Pod the sex god was cute at first, but they dwelved to much on it, yes. And love would be more touching than sex and jokes. It's needed. I'm glad the Brienne / Jaime thing worked out really well last season, that was beautiful. Now talking about unconventional love, I hope we have really nice scenes between Pod and Brienne this year :)

[Le Cygne]

Sam also is somewhat like that. I liked the pink mast scene, but I think what was beautiful about it, ws not the sex in itself, but that we know, and they know, that this moment will not last long. Gilly has tears in her eyes, and they're only free while they're on the sea. They're to be back to harsh reality soon and they know it. So it's a glass a tenth full kinda scene... So I wouldn't say it's entirely hopeful, but yes, Good is there, in a sad way, and it's nice enough to me.

I love everything you said.

Oh, man, I love the Sam and Gilly love scenes. And that's something they are doing really well on the show too. The two actors are nailing it, and the writing is sweet. There needs to be more sweet on the show. It's not sappy sweet, either, it's tenderness. Two people just caring about each other. We need to see that.

I think it's just beautiful, what he says to her. If he could choose anyone in the world, it would be her.

Think about Brienne (and Dunk) and Davos, the true knights of the story.

Totally. Have to get in a plug for the Hound, rescuing Sansa, the viewers loved that (the tweets from that episode were great). Play the selfless acts up, that's those decisions made in the heart, to do good. I think they have, with Brienne. People are loving those scenes, we need someone like her in the story. And it's not just the relationship with Jaime, she's the true knight of the story. This is love, for this girl she doesn't even know:

Seven, Brienne thought again, despairing. She had no chance against seven, she knew. No chance, and no choice.

She stepped out into the rain, Oathkeeper in hand. “Leave her be. If you want to rape someone, try me.”

[Annara Snow]

Episode 8: I really love this Red Viper dude. What a badass! Finally things are looking up.

Episode 9: FUCK THIS SHOW

More likely,

Episode 8: FUCK THIS SHOW! Why did the cool guy need to die!

Episode 9: Noooo, Ygritte! But yay, Jon and co. defeat the wildlings! Stannis to the rescue! Eh, he's a good guy after all?

Episode 10: OMG Tyrion what are you doing?! Shae - no! ... - The dragons did WHAT? - YES YES TYRION KILL THAT ASSHOLE! Ha ha "he doesn't shit gold after all!"...- Yay, LORD SNOW! LORD SNOW!

[Le Cygne]

I thought Pod the sex god was cute at first, but they dwelved to much on it, yes. And love would be more touching than sex and jokes. It's needed. I'm glad the Brienne / Jaime thing worked out really well last season, that was beautiful. Now talking about unconventional love, I hope we have really nice scenes between Pod and Brienne this year :)

Oh yes. Pod and Brienne. I hope they handle that well. Wasn't sure, but the guy who plays Pod is a Brienne fan, so that's good!

Here's the clip, at 5:40:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iu-x9R8DhoI