Why marry Oberyn

[Failed to De-anon]

It was mostly the wishes Joanna and the then Ruling Princess which resulted in the Lannister/Martell proposals. Parents being friends would have been enough of a reason to marry and while Oberyn might be a second son, he's the second son of a Great House. It's still nothing to sneeze at. Additionally, from Joanna's perspective, remember how she knew about the twins and was trying to get them separated; having Jaime marry Elia and Oberyn marry Cersei would accomplish that because Sunspear is far enough from Casterly Rock. Of course (and this one's not entirely serious, but, whatever), it's also possible that Joanna, knowing how Aerys lusted for her, wanted to avoid the increase in the creep-factor of Aerys being anywhere near her baby girl who had similar enough looks.

[Winnief]

so a domestic marriage for Jaime to shore up Casterly Rock seems like a prudent move.

The Baratheon/Stark/Tully/Arryn alliance was an incredible feat of marriage and maneuvering, but it did expose domestic weaknesses. All of those houses wound up lacking significant inroads with their bannermen, which may have contributed to their downfalls.

Shoring up your local support *would* be a smart move, but with Tywin, I think he might not have *anyone* outside of a Great House was good enough for his children. Ned's father seems to have been a bit excessively ambitious in that line as well-it seems before that, there was more a tradition of Starks marrying girl's from good Northern households, like the FLints. Robert, Stannis, and Renly had a mother who was an Estermont, and Stannis marries a Florent. And the Tyrrell's did just fine with a lot of marriages with Hightowers and Redwynes until Mace got it in his head to make Margery a Queen, (which Olenna thinks is a mistake.) No, a member of a Great House should marry from good family, but it doesn't have to be from another Great House, much less the heir to one, or IT or nothing. In fact, I think some Stark and Tully heirs, (Rickon, Sansa, etc.) might be better served marrying from the more prominent Bannerman clans like the Manderly's, the Blackwoods, (If Sansa gets RIverrun), or the Royce's.

But yeah, assuming Elia's sickliness wasn't common knowledge, then Tywin's rejecting her as a bride for Jaime was pretty dumb. He must have been blinded by grief.

No question that a Jaime/Elia match would have avoided some major problems down the road...

[Bratchild]

I thought that Tywin had hopes of marrying Jaime to Lysa?I remember that Jaime and Lysa knew each other as kids when he was sent with a message to Hoster.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I thought that Tywin had hopes of marrying Jaime to Lysa?I remember that Jaime and Lysa knew each other as kids when he was sent with a message to Hoster.

That's about five years later. And seven before it turns serious.

[mambru]

Why did House Martell think Tywin Lannister would even entertain the idea of a marriage between Oberyn and Cersei? Why would he marry his prize daughter to a second son.

I would guess that the initiative for the attempted match came from Joanna. She'd just found out about Jaime and Cersei fooling around, and she wanted them separated ASAP. Both Elia and Oberyn were highborn and available, and she had their mother, her friend, send them over on their ship with the assurance that she could persuade Tywin to accept one or the other match (DEFINITELY not both - there was only one cabin on their ship reserved for a Lannister for the return trip, and making two Dornish marriages would spoil her aim of separating the twins.)

Probably Joanna could've persuaded Tywin to agree to a Dornish match - but she unfortunately died before Oberyn and Elia arrived, and Tywin had no interest in the match without Joanna pressuring him.

[CosimaistheHottest]

I would guess that the initiative for the attempted match came from Joanna. She'd just found out about Jaime and Cersei fooling around, and she wanted them separated ASAP. Both Elia and Oberyn were highborn and available, and she had their mother, her friend, send them over on their ship with the assurance that she could persuade Tywin to accept one or the other match (DEFINITELY not both - there was only one cabin on their ship reserved for a Lannister for the return trip, and making two Dornish marriages would spoil her aim of separating the twins.)

Probably Joanna could've persuaded Tywin to agree to a Dornish match - but she unfortunately died before Oberyn and Elia arrived, and Tywin had no interest in the match without Joanna pressuring him.

I thought it was possible that maybe one of the twins would still stay at home in Casterly Rock while the other went to Sunspear as a companion or page. That is why there was only one bed. Maybe another part of the plan was for one of the Martells to stay behind too if both betrothals worked out. That would have made the most sense I thought.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Oberyn's maester training happened after his duel with Lord Yronwood which resulted in Quentyn being fostered out. I think that was after Elia's death

Actually, that is not stated.

Obara was born in Oldtown, presumably when Oberyn studied at the Citadel. Oberyn visited Oldtown on several other occasions as well (on the way to CR, on his way to exile), but those dates don't match up agewise.

Obara was 28 years old in 300 AC, placing her birth year, without further information, at 272 AC. Nymeria was 25 in 300 AC, placing her birth year in 275 AC. So in 274 AC (when Nymeria was conceived) Oberyn spend at least part of his time in Essos.

Doran was 52 in 300 AC, and without further information, he was born in 248 AC. Oberyn was exactly 10 years older, so born in 258 AC. Obara, born in 272 AC, would have been conceived 9 months earlier, either in 271 AC or 272 AC, when Oberyn was at the Citadel.

Other moments that we know Oberyn visited Oldtown were several years after Obara's birth. With Oberyn studying at the Citadel, he would have been there a significant amount of time (he forged 6 links before growing bored). Forging 6 links takes 2 years minimum (if you're exceptionally good) to 6 (if you're average) to many more years (if you're a poor student), as said by GRRM in an SSM. So Oberyn would have been at the Citadel for at least 2 years.

We know Oberyn went into exile at the age of 16 (274/275 AC) and that this lasted a few years, during which he travelled Essos. Nymeria was conceived in either 274 AC or 275 AC, during which time Oberyn would have been at Volantis. We don't know how long Oberyn was away, but in 281 AC he attended the tourney at Harrenhal. More importantly, in 276/277 AC, he fathered Tyene on a Septa (so he was in Westeros at this point).

Oberyn's lack of participating in the war of the Usurper (while Elia was in danger) suggests that he was not in Westeros during the Rebellion (though this cannot be proven, since, when asked, GRRM couldn't remember, though he said Oberyn was either in Dorne or Across the Narrow Sea). After Elia's death in 283 AC, Oberyn seldom left Dorne (we know of two occasions: the tourney where Willas was crippled, which most likely took place outside of Dorne, and Oberyn's visit to Braavos).

Though it's impossible to rule it out completely, the evidence we have suggests that Oberyn studied at the Citadel around the time of Obara's conception and birth.

Furthermore, Quentyn was born in either 282 or 281 AC, and fostering is normal from the age of 8. Quentyn was fostered earlier than this, indicating something about 6 years of age. This would have been in 287/288, around the time of Trystane's birth. The Yronwoods weren't given Quentyn immediately after the duel. "in due time" is stated in the books, to show that the Martells trusted the Yronwoods.

He was 16 when he dueled Lord Yronwood. Quentyn wasn't sent to be fostered until he was like 8, if I recall. It confuses me, because I've seen Obara's birth set when Oberyn was like 14 or 15, which would mean he was in Oldtown by then.... But then, I suppose he could've just gotten a whore pregnant while Elia was hanging out with Baelor. Sounds like something he'd do.

This is the timeline I've created for Oberyn. The visit to Oldtown where they met Baelor Brightsmile happened several years after Obara's birth.

Please do note that the error marge of a year has not been used in this timeline. The timeline is created with the information at hand, and until we know, for example, if Doran was 52 turning 53 in 300 AC (which means he was born in 247 and not 248 AC), can I be more accurate. The bold parts are known with informatio we have, the unbolded parts are either explanation, or estimations (Hotah mentioned children in the Water Gardens were between 5 and 10 years of age).

Only the years of birth of Arianne and Trystane are known with certainty.

248 AC Doran Martell born

253 AC Doran Martell goes to the Water Gardens around this time

256 AC Presumably Doran Martell goes from the Water Gardens to Salt Shore (possible stop at Sunspear)

257 AC Elia Martell born

Doran Martell was a squire at Salt Shore

258 AC Oberyn Martell born

262 AC Elia Martell goes to the Water Gardens around this time

263 AC Oberyn Martell goes to the Water Gardens around this time

266 AC Around this time, Oberyn Martell starts his fostering at Sandstone

271 AC Obara Sand conceived

Oberyn would have spent at least 2 years at Oldtown while forging his chain. Though there are multiple moments when Obara could

have been conceived (Oberyn visiting Oldtown on his was to Casterly Rock, Oberyn visiting Oldtown on his way to exile) those dates

don’t add up with Obara’s age, making it more likely that Obara was fathered when Oberyn was studying at the Citadel. This means

that Oberyn spend his time at the Citadel most likely either in 270 and 271 AC, or 271 AC and 272 AC.

272 AC Obara Sand born to an Oldtown whore

274 AC Oberyn and Elia visited Casterly Rock, after visiting several other places, amongst some Oldtown.

Doran was betrothed to Mellario of Norvos. They resided in Sunspear

Oberyn Martell temporarily exiled to Lys (from the way of Oldtown), after Lord Yronwood died due to his wounds received from

Oberyn in a duel

Nymeria Sand possibly conceived in Volantis

275 AC Nymeria Sand born to a highborn woman in Volantis

276 AC Tyene Sand conceived

Arianne Martell born to Doran Martell and Mellario of Norvos

277 AC Tyene Sand born to a septa in an unknown region, most likely Dorne

278/279 AC Elia Martell marries Rhaegar Targaryen

280 AC Rhaenys Targaryen is born to Elia Martell and Rhaegar Targaryen

Sarella Sand born

280/281 AC Around this time, Obara Sand is claimed by Oberyn Martell

281 AC Elia Martell visits the Tourney at Harrenhal with her husband and father-in-law

Oberyn Martell visits the Tourney at Harrenhal

282 AC Aegon Targaryen is born to Elia Martell and Rhaegar Targaryen

Obara Sand leaves the Water Gardens

Quentyn Martell born to Doran Martell and Mellario of Norvos

283 AC Elia Martell dies in the Sack of King’s Landing

Rhaenys Targaryen dies in the Sack of King’s Landing

Aegon Targaryen possibly dies in the Sack of King’s Landing, though he might have survived

286/287 AC Quentyn is send to Yronwood for fostering

Mellario leaves Dorne not long after this

287 AC Trystane Martell born to Doran Martell and Mellario of Norvos

290/291 AC Quentyn Martell is already at Yronwood. Arianne finds the letter Doran was writing to Quentyn, which states Doran believes

Quentyn will one day rule Dorne

300 AC Oberyn Martell dies in a trial by battle, killed by Gregor Clegane (early in the year)

Quentyn Martell dies in Meereen due to burns by dragonfire (late in the year)

[CosimaistheHottest]

I always assumed that Oberyn didn't go to the Citadel until later as a young man after the Cersei and Oberyn rejection. I just don't see the Princess of Dorne allowing him to go to the Citadel like that when she wanted to make a grand marriage for him. He would have needed her permission at the time. I can see it as one of his many dalliances as a young nobleman.

I also think with the Obara conception. It could easily be Oberyn sneaking off to Oldtown or him just passing through.

[CosimaistheHottest]

What made the Princess of Dorne think Tywin would entertain the Cersei match when he would want a Great Lord for his own daughter. I could see if Cersei had a sister then one could be throne and the other could go to Dorne. But the Princess of Dorne herself actually looked for heirs it seems when looking for Elia's husband so why wouldn't Tywin.

[The Crow's Third Eye]

What made the Princess of Dorne think Tywin would entertain the Cersei match when he would want a Great Lord for his own daughter. I could see if Cersei had a sister then one could be throne and the other could go to Dorne. But the Princess of Dorne herself actually looked for heirs it seems when looking for Elia's husband so why wouldn't Tywin.

Wasn't it an agreement between Joanna and the PoD? In which case it becomes more understandable, as from what we know Tywin may have accepted because it was what his wife wanted

[CosimaistheHottest]

Wasn't it an agreement between Joanna and the PoD? In which case it becomes more understandable, as from what we know Tywin may have accepted because it was what his wife wanted

Yeah it was an agreement. But I also think this is something that Tywin wouldn't agree to at all even with Joanna's insistence. It goes against his lifelong dreams. I can't see him deviating from the plan especially if he agreed to Elia and Jaime.

[PrimeRhaegar]

I don't get why tywin rejected the Elia match with jamie i agree it must have been the grief that blinded him.

[Ser Carson]

Elia was much older then Jamie (I don't think men married women older then them) and the Dornish have little resources that CR would really need. I think the match was purely made from Joanna and the Lady Martell being friends. I think the better match would've been to Elbert Arryn.

[CosimaistheHottest]

I don't get why tywin rejected the Elia match with jamie i agree it must have been the grief that blinded him.

Elia wasn't very healthy but she was fertile and able to have children and a daughter of Dorne.

I used to think it also has to do with her being older than Jaime. But then Tywin wanted Cersei to marry Viserys then Willas who both are younger than her. With the Willas one, she already had three kids and lacks her youthfulness and Tywin actually expects her to have more kids and the Tyrells to be grateful. It could be Tywins hypocrisy and thoughts on the lannisters being better. With the no from the tyrells, he still looks at another Great House the Martells for Cerseis match. So even wiith a 30 something mother of three, he feels he can get the best possible mates because he and she is a Lannister.

[Lord_Tyrell]

Why did House Martell think Tywin Lannister would even entertain the idea of a marriage between Oberyn and Cersei? Why would he marry his prize daughter to a second son.

Jaime and Elia could have worked.

Cersei's work was done at that time. Her only use was to tie the Tyrells or the Martells that much closer to the Lannisters.

[Djinn]

Maybe that was Johanna's plan. She proposes the Cersei-Oberyn match to Tywin, knowing that he would refuse since he makes no secret of his ambition for a royal match or Cersei(and Oberyn isn't politically better match that Stannis/Ned/Maron), so then she proposes the Jaime-Elia match, which is much more sensible and now Tywin ''owes'' her and gives her a advantage in the discussion.

[CosimaistheHottest]

Maybe that was Johanna's plan. She proposes the Cersei-Oberyn match to Tywin, knowing that he would refuse since he makes no secret of his ambition for a royal match or Cersei(and Oberyn isn't politically better match that Stannis/Ned/Maron), so then she proposes the Jaime-Elia match, which is much more sensible and now Tywin ''owes'' her and gives her a advantage in the discussion.

I could see this.

[Whatever]

I'm sorry, I apologize in advance because I understand how silly and girlish my answer is.
But, SERIOUSLY, the very first thing I thought while reading the title - why marry Oberyn - was: who the hell WOULDN'T want to? Just saying.

[PancakeMountainThatRides]

I'm sorry, I apologize in advance because I understand how silly and girlish my answer is.

But, SERIOUSLY, the very first thing I thought while reading the title - why marry Oberyn - was: who the hell WOULDN'T want to? Just saying.

:agree: I mean... unf.

[King Jaime Lannister]

It is really just incredible writing and use of irony by GRRM.

We obviously already knew that this point that Rhaegar married Elia. When we find out that Tywin could have potentially blocked this by marrying Jaime to Elia, it is such sweet irony. Imagine the look of Tywin's face when he gets the double disappointment of not only losing the chance of Cersei marrying Rhaegar, but that the crown prince's bride was only available because Tywin didn't want Jaime to marry her. It adds so much fuel to Lannister / Martell hatred. After finding this out I had a much better understanding of why Tywin released his dogs of Elia and her children.