Ramsays 63 and Daenerys 163... Is Martin trying to hint something?

[Minsc]

So, killing someone for his culture? Wouldn't that be like killing, no not just killing torturing, someone because he is a Targ who have dragons and dragons are MDW?

Again haven't you condoned the murder of baby Aegon and Rhaenys along with Robert's subsequently turning a blind eye to it?

[Alayne's Shadow.]

Illegalise slavery. Dont just kill everyone whos owned a slave after changing the law. Some people treated their slaves well, but they'll die with the rest.

Didn't she killed them as a repay for the murdered children though? The children that had nothing to do with the war whatsoever, yet were put on display to intimidate Daenerys? I don't think Daenerys is right in punishing them for slavery, but I can't really defend them on the grounds of murder.

[Rhymes with Weak]

While the numbers say otherwise, I would still say that Ramsay is more economical when it comes to mass murder. Seeing as though he likes to join in.

[El Guapo]

Illegalise slavery. Dont just kill everyone whos owned a slave after changing the law. Some people treated their slaves well, but they'll die with the rest.

She doesn't kill everyone who has owned a slave. There are many many ex-slavers currently living unhappily in Mereen, Yunkai too. Hell, there are still some alive in Astapor too.

[Bronn Urgandy]

The fact that they are slavers is not their crime - their crime is that as slavers and part of the governing body of Meereen, they condoned the murder of 163 children.

Didn't she killed them as a repay for the murdered children though? The children that had nothing to do with the war whatsoever, yet were put on display to intimidate Daenerys? I don't think Daenerys is right in punishing them for slavery, but I can't really defend them on the grounds of murder.

Certainly not, those responsible should be punished, but they were picked seemingly at random, I'd rather see 10 guilty men walk free than crucify 1 innocent with his guts hanging out.

My comments were more in tune with the school of thought (not unlike Danys own) that everyone with a tokar over 12 should die.

[RoamingRonin]

Will you say the same about the Freys after they undergo a blanket slaughter?

The Freys... You think I care?

Neither did the Astaporians, Meerenese or Yunkai.

I'm not sure what you're arguing here.

Certainly not, those responsible should be punished, but they were picked seemingly at random, I'd rather see 10 guilty men walk free than crucify 1 innocent with his guts hanging out.

You're laboring under the belief that there is one innocent person.

[Dany Girl]

Genocide? Retroactive punishment is wrong. Like illegalising booze and arresting anyone whos ever had a drink.

You hate slavery but Jorah mormont is getting what he deserves?

To the 2 addressed to me....

1-

A- it's not genocide to whipe out the GMs. They are just 1 part of a race/society. Genocide would be whipping out all the Giscary (sp?).

B- not retroactive punishment, just punishment. The GMs planned the slaughter of the Children, and did it just to antagonize her. They knew she was coming. Because of how they run their city, as a congress, I find it incredibly unlikely they were uninformed of the plan.

C- Dany did not just willy nilly pick 163 people to punish. She knew who they were, knew who their wives were, knew where they lived. She may have allowed the other GMs to pick them, but she found out about them. Also, why would 163 innocent GMs allow themselves to be chosen? Why not put up a fight and make the guilty ones pay, if they were in fact innocent. If I'm innocent, I'm sure as hell not going down without a fight!

2- yes, I abhor slavery. As I said, Ned should have killed him (or he could have taken the black) but instead he ran off like a coward. Since I hate slavery, it's obviously one of the worst punishments in my eyes. So until slavery is truly abolished, I'd rather he be a slave then some innocent person pulled out of their bed in the middle of the night. Once slavery is gone, Jorah can do whatever he likes, having served his sentence. Sadly, that's not going to happen, since he's escaped with Tyrion. Now I hope he just dies without ever being reunited with Dany.

[TheCrannogDweller]

Because of how they run their city, as a congress, I find it incredibly unlikely they were uninformed of the plan.

To play the devil's advocate here, are they really a democratic governing body? Because if they are and they made that decision through a majority vote, there might've been some GMs who voted against - in which case they would be innocent.

[E-Ro]

Because you said crucifixions were not ok. So, the question is then what forms of executions are ok in your mind? beheadings? burnings? Impalings? drownings?

No form of execution is ok. I disagree with the death penalty in all its forms.

Hence you wont ever see me attempt to justify Stans burnings, I even disagree with ned killing deserters.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

So, just to see if I understand correctly, its ok for a foreigner to invade a country and just starting mass torturing and murdering people, without any actual proof or guiltiness just because their culture?

[Dany Girl]

To play the devil's advocate here, are they really a democratic governing body? Because if they are and they made that decision through a majority vote, there might've been some GMs who voted against - in which case they would be innocent.

They're said to rule as a group from my understanding. So there very well may have been those against it, but they didn't stop it, so I don't know if I'd call them innocent, just lazy. All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. And even if they were innocent, I doubt they'd just allow themselves to be thrown to the lions (or should I say dragons) and take one for the team. If they were innocent, I think they would have fought it. Dany says nothing about them proclaiming their innocence though, or fighting back.

[RoamingRonin]

So, just to see if I understand correctly, its ok for a foreigner to invade a country and just starting mass torturing and murdering people, without any actual proof or guiltiness just because their culture?

You haven't learned your lesson yet? Remember when you dragged this up before and Mormont laid it out nice and simple for you?

True: it would be more accurate to say it never had any credibility in the first place. The idea that those executed were just 'random people', innocent of any involvement in the atrocity of the 163 children, is entirely made up by critics of Dany, and has no basis in fact.

[Bronn Urgandy]

The Freys... You think I care?

I'm not sure what you're arguing here.

You're laboring under the belief that there is one innocent person.

So blanket punishments are a-okay, provided you dont care?

You said George Washington shouldnt be punished by Westerosi law, neither should the slaver cities then.

To the 2 addressed to me....

1-

A- it's not genocide to whipe out the GMs. They are just 1 part of a race/society. Genocide would be whipping out all the Giscary (sp?).

B- not retroactive punishment, just punishment. The GMs planned the slaughter of the Children, and did it just to antagonize her. They knew she was coming. Because of how they run their city, as a congress, I find it incredibly unlikely they were uninformed of the plan.

C- Dany did not just willy nilly pick 163 people to punish. She knew who they were, knew who their wives were, knew where they lived. She may have allowed the other GMs to pick them, but she found out about them. Also, why would 163 innocent GMs allow themselves to be chosen? Why not put up a fight and make the guilty ones pay, if they were in fact innocent. If I'm innocent, I'm sure as hell not going down without a fight!

2- yes, I abhor slavery. As I said, Ned should have killed him (or he could have taken the black) but instead he ran off like a coward. Since I hate slavery, it's obviously one of the worst punishments in my eyes. So until slavery is truly abolished, I'd rather he be a slave then some innocent person pulled out of their bed in the middle of the night. Once slavery is gone, Jorah can do whatever he likes, having served his sentence. Sadly, that's not going to happen, since he's escaped with Tyrion. Now I hope he just dies without ever being reunited with Dany.

You said Dany shold've killed them all for keeping slaves. Even if you just meant the GM's, just feels wrong. I cant believe they all would vote for the the child crucifixitions... And if you were innocent and picked, there wouldnt be a lot you could do.

Thats whats wrong with Dany chapters, her enemies are all laughable caricatures all seen at a distance, which tends to soften the blows of the stuff she does to them.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

Certainly not, those responsible should be punished, but they were picked seemingly at random, I'd rather see 10 guilty men walk free than crucify 1 innocent with his guts hanging out.

Weren't they all part of the Meereen government though? The ones chosen... I think she even goes into the names of their wives and their families. I'm not completely sure. I do remember she's haunted for it, though. Weren't they all part of the decision to slaughter the children? You can commit a crime by omission...

My comments were more in tune with the school of thought (not unlike Danys own) that everyone with a tokar over 12 should die.

Oh, I agree with you. There's no denial that her crimes in Astapor were brutal. There's no defense for that.

So, just to see if I understand correctly, its ok for a foreigner to invade a country and just starting mass torturing and murdering people, without any actual proof or guiltiness just because their culture?

No, It is not. It's the worst thing one can do. It's almost as bad as killing children because of their family name. To defend one and shame the other is just basic hypocrisy. Also, there's no actual proof they were innocent, in regards to the 163.

[Bronn Urgandy]

Weren't they all part of the Meereen government though? The ones chosen... I think she even goes into the names of their wives and their families. I'm not completely sure. I do remember she's haunted for it, though. Weren't they all part of the decision to slaughter the children? You can commit a crime by omission..

True, but I must ask myself would I be brave enough to try and stop it? I'd imagine physically trying to do so would lead to a grizzly fate. Behind my computer screen I say "YES, I WOULD!" but in the actual situation, who knows?

[Dany Girl]

So blanket punishments are a-okay, provided you dont care?

You said George Washington shouldnt be punished by Westerosi law, neither should the slaver cities then.

You said Dany shold've killed them all for keeping slaves. Even if you just meant the GM's, just feels wrong. I cant believe they all would vote for the the child crucifixitions... And if you were innocent and picked, there wouldnt be a lot you could do.

Thats whats wrong with Dany chapters, her enemies are all laughable caricatures all seen at a distance, which tends to soften the blows of the stuff she does to them.

:bang: I was clearly speaking about the GMs. Everything I've said has been about the GMs and their roll in the children's crucifixions! They're a governing body, kinda like a congress/assembly. They make decisions as a group. So, even if they didn't take part in the physical portion of the plan, they had knowledge of it. They are accessories to the crimes. They deserve to die, for that, plus all the other killings they are responsible for. And if you were innocent and picked, you could throw a pretty big fit that Dany would have noticed and questioned!

Eta: there is zero evidence these people were in any way innocent. That is a fact made up by Dany haters. Dany knows who they are, who their wives are, where they lived, she's clearly put some work into this. Saying they're random innocent members of the government has zero factual basis.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

No, It is not. It's the worst thing one can do. It's almost as bad as killing children because of their family name. To defend one and shame the other is just basic hypocrisy. Also, there's no actual proof they were innocent, in regards to the 163.

No, its the same. Not almost the same. Both of them had been used in the real world's wars.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

No, its the same. Not almost the same. Both of them had been used in the real world's wars.

I'd claim the children are worse because they are children. At least the men participated actively in the war. What did the children do?

[Bronn Urgandy]

:bang: I was clearly speaking about the GMs. Everything I've said has been about the GMs and their roll in the children's crucifixions! They're a governing body, kinda like a congress/assembly. They make decisions as a group. So, even if they didn't take part in the physical portion of the plan, they had knowledge of it. They are accessories to the crimes. They deserve to die, for that, plus all the other killings they are responsible for. And if you were innocent and picked, you could throw a pretty big fit that Dany would have noticed and questioned!

Your words, "they were slavers, Dany should've killed them all" but slavery isnt a crime yet, its retroactive punishment.

You'd be making EXACTLY the same scene as the 162 guilty ones next to you.

[RoamingRonin]

So blanket punishments are a-okay, provided you dont care?

You said George Washington shouldnt be punished by Westerosi law, neither should the slaver cities then.

George Washington is a real person and we're discussing punishments in a fictional fantasy series. Let's stay within the rules of the book and not reach for real world figures.