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Lyanna...WTFoshizzles?


Khal BlackfyreO

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You're biased by your cultural tradition. Polygamy =/= adultery.

Let's face it though, it is still adultery if the people involved are not OK with the situation. Just because it's technically not adultery, doesn't mean it actually isn't. If Elia was completely distraught at the fact that Rhaegar ran off with and married and slept with another girl, would you say 'what are you crying for, he isn't cheating on you!'

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It is somewhat depressing how many people like to insinuate that Elia must have been totally OK with Rhaegar marrying someone else. Isn't this series filled with morally grey characters? Is it so hard to believe that, in a moment of love and passion, Rhaegar hurt and betrayed his wife? And if Rhaegar and Elia were no longer having sex due to the risk of pregnancy (I have no idea why that would be the case, seeing as they seem to have a perfectly good contraceptive/abortive in Westeros) I don't agree that that means that Rhaegar wasn't cheating. If me and my girlfriend aren't having sex, for personal or health reasons, it doesn't mean I can go bang some other girl and say to her, 'hey, it's not cheating, I can't/am choosing not to have sex with my other girlfriend, so it's totally fine.'

Exactly. Elia was dornish, and the dornish in general are more accepting of paramours, but that doesn't mean that Elia felt that way. That's generalising a character whose thoughts we do not know.

Besides, a second wife is a completely thing than a paramour. A paramour has no legal rights (nor does her offspring). A second wife would have legal rights. Think about the Dance of the Dragons (though there the second marriage came after the first wife had died).. Think about Maegor I and Aenys I.. Two sons from two different wives, from a polygamous marriage. Aenys, we know, had sons. Does anyone actually think that those sons stood aside quietly as their uncle took the throne?

As to the contraceptive in Westeros: that´s the moon tea... and while effective, it's a poison, and it should not be used all too often, nor in too high concentration. Hoster Tully slipped Lysa Tully moon tea, but it seems the tansy was a bit too much... Lysa apparently got so sick that she nearly died. For someone with a troublesome health, drinking such tea at regular basis might not be the best idea.

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Let's face it though, it is still adultery if the people involved are not OK with the situation. Just because it's technically not adultery, doesn't mean it actually isn't. If Elia was completely distraught at the fact that Rhaegar ran off with and married and slept with another girl, would you say 'what are you crying for, he isn't cheating on you!'

Unfortunately, Elia would have had little to say in that situation. Rhaegar was the crown prince, the King-to-be. And that in a culture where women have little say in things anyway.

Whether Elia was okay with it or not, Rhaegar did what he wanted (or felt what was necessary, in regards to prophecy). Legally, unfortunately, Elia could not do a thing if a polygamous marriage was what Rhaegar was going with, though emotionally, she might have felt betrayed and cheated on.

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You're biased by your cultural tradition. Polygamy =/= adultery.

I´m not biased by my own cultural tradition. I´m biased by Westeros cultural tradition, which we can suppose Lyanna is a part of and in sync with because we have the hint that she didn´t like Robert for his 'liberal nature.' But apparently Westeros and its women, just forget about a tradition (that of monogamy) that applies to everyone else because 'Targaryen'. Come on...the only people OK with this tradition in Westeros are the Targaryens themselves. If you marry any other lord you expect him to be faithful, but if you get to be with a Targaryen then you suck it up and get down with the PolyG! See why I have a problem with this? But hey, my opinion is she was either truly kidnapped, or truly rapturously in love, so she just didn´t give a flying f, which are both totally possible, but it doesn´t remove the incongruency in her stated reasons for not accepting Robert and (supposedly) going willingly with Rhaegar.

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As to the contraceptive in Westeros: that´s the moon tea... and while effective, it's a poison, and it should not be used all too often, nor in too high concentration. Hoster Tully slipped Lysa Tully moon tea, but it seems the tansy was a bit too much... Lysa apparently got so sick that she nearly died. For someone with a troublesome health, drinking such tea at regular basis might not be the best idea.

I can't find any reference to Moon Tea being unsafe to drink regularly. I also can't find the bit about Lysa nearly dying from it, could you post those bits for me? I'll have a dig around likely chapters.

Unfortunately, Elia would have had little to say in that situation. Rhaegar was the crown prince, the King-to-be. And that in a culture where women have little say in things anyway.

Whether Elia was okay with it or not, Rhaegar did what he wanted (or felt what was necessary, in regards to prophecy). Legally, unfortunately, Elia could not do a thing if a polygamous marriage was what Rhaegar was going with, though emotionally, she might have felt betrayed and cheated on.

Yes, Elia's feelings on the whole thing don't matter so much in terms of whether Rhaegar could or would do it. But her feelings do matter when it comes to judging Rhaegar's character. Rhaegar, for me, is a character who I swing between liking and loathing, due to the limited evidence we have on him. It will make a lot of difference to me when/if we know what Elia's views were on the whole thing.

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Let's face it though, it is still adultery if the people involved are not OK with the situation. Just because it's technically not adultery, doesn't mean it actually isn't. If Elia was completely distraught at the fact that Rhaegar ran off with and married and slept with another girl, would you say 'what are you crying for, he isn't cheating on you!'

Adultery is sleeping with someone else than your spouse, regardless of the number of spouses. Spouses not being OK with the existence of other spouses is an entirely different matter.

I´m not biased by my own cultural tradition. I´m biased by Westeros cultural tradition, which we can suppose Lyanna is a part of and in sync with because we have the hint that she didn´t like Robert for his 'liberal nature.' But apparently Westeros and its women, just forget about a tradition (that of monogamy) that applies to everyone else because 'Targaryen'. Come on...the only people OK with this tradition in Westeros are the Targaryens themselves. If you marry any other lord you expect him to be faithful, but if you get to be with a Targaryen then you suck it up and get down with the PolyG! See why I have a problem with this? But hey, my opinion is she was either truly kidnapped, or truly rapturously in love, so she just didn´t give a flying f, which are both totally possible, but it doesn´t remove the incongruency in her stated reasons for not accepting Robert and (supposedly) going willingly with Rhaegar.

And Aegon the Conqueror and Maegor are... /gasp/ a part of the Westerosi cultural tradition. So, yeah, different norms for the Targaryens. Quod licet Jovi, non licet bovi. It's not like the RL history doesn't know such an attitude.

And if you can't see the difference between eloping with the love of your life, married or not, and being married to a guy who fucks everything that doesn't run...

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Adultery is sleeping with someone else than your spouse, regardless of the number of spouses. Spouses not being OK with the existence of other spouses is an entirely different matter.

And Aegon the Conqueror and Maegor are... /gasp/ a part of the Westerosi cultural tradition. So, yeah, different norms for the Targaryens. Quod licet Jovi, non licet bovi. It's not like the RL history doesn't know such an attitude.

Targaryens marrying Targaryens is one thing, Targaryens marrying non-Targaryens that subscribe to a different rule set is harder to swallow.

And if you can't see the difference between eloping with the love of your life, married or not, and being married to a guy who MIGHT fucks everything that doesn't run...

Totally true, i won´t argue that point...except you are extending Robert then to Robert recently passed, no one knew then what Robert would become, nor is it entirely out of the realm of possibility to suppose that being King itself at least partially ruined him.

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I can't find any reference to Moon Tea being unsafe to drink regularly. I also can't find the bit about Lysa nearly dying from it, could you post those bits for me? I'll have a dig around likely chapters.

From the app:

She grows to love her father's ward, Petyr Baelish , and on a night when Petyr had becomes drunk after learning that Brandon Stark is betrothed to Lysa's sister Catelyn , Lysa gives Petyr her maidenhead. Later, when Petyr is gravely injured in his duel with Brandon Stark, Lysa tends to his hurts and again sleeps with him. This time, she conceives a child. She reveals the pregnancy to her father in the belief that he will have to let her marry the banished Petyr, but instead Lord Tully forces her to drink moon tea to purge herself of the pregnancy. Lysa nearly dies from this.

Also, read the earlier Catelyn chapters from Storm, where Hoster expresses his guilt:

Lord Hoster’s eyes opened. “Tansy,” he husked in a voice thick with pain.

“Forgive me... the blood... oh, please... Tansy...

Lord Hoster groaned. “Dead.” His hand groped for hers. “You’ll have others... sweet babes, and trueborn.”

And later

When she touched him, Lord Hoster moaned. “Forgive me,” he said, so softly she could scarcely hear the words. “Tansy... blood... the blood... gods be kind...”

Both boxes contain quotes from Catelyn I in Storm

There's also this from Catelyn II in Storm

Her father was growing weaker and more delirious with every passing day, waking only to mutter, “Tansy,” and beg forgiveness.

That Hoster keeps talking about blood is the truly interesting part, and should raise the most suspicion. Though blood is normal during a miscarriage, it seems like Lysa bled an abnormal amount... which could be dangerous for her health.

Adding up that Lysa had a difficult time conceiving a living child since then.. Something definitly went horribly wrong there.

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Adultery is sleeping with someone else than your spouse, regardless of the number of spouses. Spouses not being OK with the existence of other spouses is an entirely different matter.

OK, so lets not call it adultery then, lets call it being unfaithful, or cheating. My point was, that regardless of the legal situation, how they all felt about it determined whether it was cheating or not.

And if you can't see the difference between eloping with the love of your life, married or not, and being married to a guy who fucks everything that doesn't run...

Of course there's a difference. However, if I was the Lyanna in this situation, I would be thinking 'Well, he is cheating on his wife. I know he doesn't love her and he says he loves me, but it is still cheating.'

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From the app:

Also, read the earlier Catelyn chapters from Storm, where Hoster expresses his guilt:

And later

Both boxes contain quotes from Catelyn I in Storm

There's also this from Catelyn II in Storm

That Hoster keeps talking about blood is the truly interesting part, and should raise the most suspicion. Though blood is normal during a miscarriage, it seems like Lysa bled an abnormal amount... which could be dangerous for her health.

Adding up that Lysa had a difficult time conceiving a living child since then.. Something definitly went horribly wrong there.

Thanks :) I'm afraid I don't have the App, so I couldn't check that. I noticed the mentions of blood in those chapters, but I didn't want to draw conclusions from just that.

On the bit about Lysa's difficult time carrying a child to term afterwards, I agree it could have been the moon tea that did it, but it is noted that Lysa's mother had similar problems, however I have no idea if such a thing is genetic.

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You must have missed the part where Maegor married one Jeyne Westerling.

Strangely, even before the Rebellion happened, Lyanna nailed down Robert's characteristics, so your point is moot.

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Thanks :) I'm afraid I don't have the App, so I couldn't check that. I noticed the mentions of blood in those chapters, but I didn't want to draw conclusions from just that.

On the bit about Lysa's difficult time carrying a child to term afterwards, I agree it could have been the moon tea that did it, but it is noted that Lysa's mother had similar problems, however I have no idea if such a thing is genetic.

Minisa gave birth five times without problems. The first two children had simply died young, IIRC. It was the sixth birth that killed her.
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You must have missed the part where Maegor married one Jeyne Westerling.

Strangely, even before the Rebellion happened, Lyanna nailed down Robert's characteristics, so your point is moot.

Just because something happens once or twice doesn´t mean it is normal or acceptable. The 'first night' was apparently a tradition for a long time, (though I don´t know of any examples of it), but that doesn´t mean it was well accepted or welcomed. It was eventually abolished because it wasn´t well accepted or welcomed. The example you are giving just happens to be one of the cruelest and most tyrannical rulers in Westeros, so I´m not sure it counts much in your favor.

I know that Targaryens have the 'right' to marry mulitple women, and that the women of Westeros, if chosen, will have to accept this. That doesn´t mean that they are SUPER OKAY with it, especially when it runs in stark contrast to what they expect from EVERYONE ELSE.

Women don´t have much choice who they marry either, but they suck it up and accept it, just like Sansa did with Tyrion, and Lysa with Jon Arryn, but neither of them liked or enjoyed it, because it ran contrary to their expectations.

Lyanna has established that she DOESN'T like Robert Baratheon because he gets around with multiple women, but she ACCEPTS being one of Rhaegar's multiple women. This is an incongruency in her character, say what you want about how many wives a Targaryen can have, cultural norms, traditions, or whatever.

And yes Rhaegar with two women officially married is probably better objectively than Robert with his tens or hundreds. But it doesn´t sound like Lyanna's choice comes from a rational place for me, after hearing her objections to Robert.

P.S. not trying to yell with caps or anything, just drive home points...

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Just because something happens once or twice doesn´t mean it is normal or acceptable. The 'first night' was apparently a tradition for a long time, (though I don´t know of any examples of it), but that doesn´t mean it was well accepted or welcomed. It was eventually abolished because it wasn´t well accepted or welcomed. The example you are giving just happens to be one of the cruelest and most tyrannical rulers in Westeros, so I´m not sure it counts much in your favor.

I know that Targaryens have the 'right' to marry mulitple women, and that the women of Westeros, if chosen, will have to accept this. That doesn´t mean that they are SUPER OKAY with it, especially when it runs in stark contrast to what they expect from EVERYONE ELSE.

Women don´t have much choice who they marry either, but they suck it up and accept it, just like Sansa did with Tyrion, and Lysa with Jon Arryn, but neither of them liked or enjoyed it, because it ran contrary to their expectations.

Lyanna has established that she DOESN'T like Robert Baratheon because he gets around with multiple women, but she ACCEPTS being one of Rhaegar's multiple women. This is an incongruency in her character, say what you want about how many wives a Targaryen can have, cultural norms, traditions, or whatever.

And yes Rhaegar with two women officially married is probably better objectively than Robert with his tens or hundreds. But it doesn´t sound like Lyanna's choice comes from a rational place for me, after hearing her objections to Robert.

P.S. not trying to yell with caps or anything, just drive home points...

Lyanna accepts to be the only woman that Rhaegar ever loved and that he will ever bed because Elia's frail health give him an excuse never to have to fulfill marital duties with her again. How is this is any way similar to Robert having casual sex with anyone who comes handy? Rhaegar would be faithful to Lyanna, Robert would not.

Regardless of Maegor's character, what matters is establishing a precedent that has never been revoked.

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Lyanna accepts to be the only woman that Rhaegar ever loved and that he will ever bed because Elia's frail health give him an excuse never to have to fulfill marital duties with her again. How is this is any way similar to Robert having casual sex with anyone who comes handy? Rhaegar would be faithful to Lyanna, Robert would not.

Regardless of Maegor's character, what matters is establishing a precedent that has never been revoked.

I think all I´m really saying is that (I think) she liked/then loved Rhaegar, and therefore was blind to seeing his faults or similarities to Robert, whereas Robert she never liked/loved and was able to be more rational about his problems.

She probably rationalized it herself much like we are doing, but leaving her feelings for Rhaegar aside, they are both men with multiple women. Are there mitigating factors? Yes! Is Robert objectively worse than Rhaegar? Yes! But they are both men with multiple women.

Let me draw a parallel. ..

Did Jorah fall for a woman he couldn´t maintain? Yes! Was he desperate for money? Yes! Did he operate in the slave trade? Yes!

So Ned called for his head. Did he care why Jorah did it? Did that make it okay? No. The transgression itself was all that was needed.

But Slavery is outlawed in Westeros, you say.

But it isn´t in Slavers Bay, I say.

So from Lyanna's viewpoint (not Westerosi) what is okay for Rhaegar, isn´t okay for Robert, and that is my whole point.

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Your parallel might be fitting if Jorah went to Essos and traded slaves over there. However, he was in Westeros and selling Westerosi people. Besides, Targs were above the law, Jorah was not.


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Your parallel might be fitting if Jorah went to Essos and traded slaves over there. However, he was in Westeros and selling Westerosi people. Besides, Targs were above the law, Jorah was not.

Granted, but I don´t think Lyanna's viewpoint on the man she chose was shaded by what was legal.

Technically Robert was the King, so he could do whatever the hell he wanted and it was legal just as well. Doesn´t mean people saw it as 'right'.

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Your parallel might be fitting if Jorah went to Essos and traded slaves over there. However, he was in Westeros and selling Westerosi people. Besides, Targs were above the law, Jorah was not.

Well the Targs are NOT above the law. Aerys king of proved this. They stopped being above the law when the last dragon died

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Well the Targs are NOT above the law. Aerys king of proved this. They stopped being above the law when the last dragon died

Funny then how they carried on with incest long after the dragons were gone.

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