Is the Dance of the Dragons merely a plot device to explain why the dragons went extinct? (TPQ spoilers)

[Panos Targaryen]

Before The Princess and the Queen came out, there was no indication that most Targaryen dragons died in the war. The way the death of the dragons is described in the main series makes us think that because of the incestuous nature of dragon breeding the dragon fertility rates began to fall, and the dragons became weaker and weaker until they were infertile. Kind of like a real-life incest scenario, not like the Targaryens, who miraculously managed to survive for 300 years, despite their extreme incest.

Nor is it mentioned anywhere that so many dragons died in the Dance before TPQ came out. Then suddenly they begin dying like flies. Is it just me, or was The Princess and the Queen a last-minute addition to the lore by GRRM to make the mass death of the dragons more realistic? If dragon to dragon combat had such a high casualty rate, then the dragons would have died a long time ago. And that whole Dragonpit massacre scene seems a bit strange to me. 4 dragons dead, just like that?

I loved the novella and its additions to Targaryen history and general lore, but it seemed to me like its whole purpose was to kill the dragons off, something that wasn't really implied when reading about the Dance in ASOIAF, whenever it is mentioned, which makes it look like a minor retcon. The death of the dragons seemed to be caused by gradual inbreeding degeneration, an implied plot by the maesters and other factors over the years, not just one war, which happened to lead to the death of dozens of dragons, as we have now learned.

[Lummel]

I thought that the plot device to explain the extinction of the dragons was the use of the dragonpit and the role of the Maesters in combination with Aegon III's understandable lack of love for dragons after having seen his mother eaten by one.

After all the death of the dragons would not have stopped the survivors from laying eggs, those eggs hatching and the hatchlings growing to full / sexually mature size - and that last part is what we know from the Hedge Knight is exactly what did not happen.

[Roose The Weddingcrasher]

Everything is a plot device.

[Panos Targaryen]

Everything is a plot device.

Not everything. Some plot developments are just consequences of previous plot developments, which have no specific purpose.

[Panos Targaryen]

I thought that the plot device to explain the extinction of the dragons was the use of the dragonpit and the role of the Maesters in combination with Aegon III's understandable lack of love for dragons after having seen his mother eaten by one.

After all the death of the dragons would not have stopped the survivors from laying eggs, those eggs hatching and the hatchlings growing to full / sexually mature size - and that last part is what we know from the Hedge Knight is exactly what did not happen.

The dragonpit explanation always seemed like a lie by the maesters for me. It doesn't really make sense. Like Jorah or Barristan said, why would the size of one's habitat affect one's growth. Even the story itself mentions how implausible the "dragonpit stunts dragon growth" theory is.

[Gertrude]

The dragonpit explanation always seemed like a lie by the maesters for me. It doesn't really make sense. Like Jorah or Barristan said, why would the size of one's habitat affect one's growth. Even the story itself mentions how implausible the "dragonpit stunts dragon growth" theory is.

Isn't it mentioned that Drogon is much larger than the other two who were penned up in Mereen? It could be explained away as Drogon was always going to be naturally bigger, but I was under the impression that his freedom under the open skies made a big difference. I don't think it's as simple as a dragon's size relating directly to his environment, but that a natural habitat (i.e. not a dragonpit) allows them to develop to their full potential. If you were confined to a 10x10 room, you'd not really have much motivation to exercise and develop muscle, stamina, fighting skills, etc.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

i disagree, i think the Dance of Dragon is a plot divice to introduce us to the Grand Citadel Conspiracy...

The grey sheep were responsable for the Dance of Dragons as a way to take out the Dragons.. The ones still standing after the Civil war could have been poisoned afterwards.

BranVras has an excellent essay on the role of the Maesters during the DOD

http://branvras.free.fr/HuisClos/Ruled.html

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

The dragonpit explanation always seemed like a lie by the maesters for me. It doesn't really make sense. Like Jorah or Barristan said, why would the size of one's habitat affect one's growth. Even the story itself mentions how implausible the "dragonpit stunts dragon growth" theory is.

It was mentioned earlier in the story that many of the Targaryren dragons died during the Targaryren civil war. I have yet to read The Princess and the Queen, but I vaguely remember the civil war being mentioned in connection to the lack of dragons. I will try to find the passage. I believe that rest where conspired against by the maesters.

The idea of the size of one's habitat stunting one's growth can be seen in nature. It's not the size of the habitat itself that inhibits growth, but the stresses the limited amount of space puts on the animal.

On the other hand, dragons are magical creatures that may need open space to reach their full potential, Drogon for example. It's completely plausible.

[Panos Targaryen]

It was mentioned earlier in the story that many of the Targaryren dragons died during the Targaryren civil war. I have yet to read The Princess and the Queen, but I vaguely remember the civil war being mentioned in connection to the lack of dragons. I will try to find the passage. I believe that rest where conspired against by the maesters.

The idea of the size of one's habitat stunting one's growth can be seen in nature. It's not the size of the habitat itself that inhibits growth, but the stresses the limited amount of space puts on the animal.

On the other hand, dragons are magical creatures that may need open space to reach their full potential, Drogon for example. It's completely plausible.

If you find it please post it, cos that's actually what I'm arguing: the Dance of the Dragons has never been mentioned in connection to the extinction of dragons.

[RoamingRonin]

The Dance showed us how the majority of the dragons were killed. It never explained why/how the dragons diminished. It seems all of the Targaryen's dragons came from the original three - Balerion, Vhagar and Meraxes - so it shouldn't have been difficult for the remaining dragons to breed more. But that never happened. They shrank to the size of dogs and then died off. Perhaps this is what the Citadel is responsible for. The Dragonpit couldn't have been the only reason they became so stunted.

[Lost Melnibonean]

No, there's a lot of foreshadowing going on and we can find a bunch of clues. Before this history came out we had no idea the first Dance pitted the blacks against the greens. This helps explain a lot of what we've already read and helps us to understand where we're going.

Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black.

A blue flower growing from a chink in a wall of ice, filling the air with sweetness.

"The dragon has three heads."

"Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all."

The three heads of the dragon are Aegon (green), Jon (blue), and Dany (black). (Aemon is dead and Bloodraven is all but spent.) Tyrion is the only character who has come into direct contact with all three of them. Dany has already mounted the black dragon. Aegon will likely claim the green one. Jon doesn't appear destined to riding a dragon unless he takes Drogon after Dany. Tyrion and/or Brown Ben Plum will likely claim the white one. And Ulf the White's actions suggest that Viserion's rider will betray Dany for all the gold of Casterly Rock.

[PrimeRhaegar]

I would think so the same way robert's rebellion was a plot device to start off the story.

[Panos Targaryen]

I would think so the same way robert's rebellion was a plot device to start off the story.

Only we learn about RR from the beginning of the story, with no alternative explanation before it. The massive dragon death toll we see in TPQ is something new, and I don't recall it ever being implied before in the main series.

[Ser Creighton]

It's not a plot device, it's just bad writing.

Dragons are vulnerable to drunk people who are also immune to fire. Drunk people fear nothing and this makes them great at killing dragons. Bad writing.

Dragons are weak and stupid without a rider.

Take the Dragon pit, one dragon flew around and tried to escape. But stayed in the air breathing fire. I would not really call that bad writing. But the Dragon that was outside decided not to breath fire and to land in the middle of the crowd. That was bad writing.

One dragon got backed into it's den and none of the men could get to it. Lucky a never before mentioned back door was there and lucky for the men the dragon is unable to turn around because the chains are super short and it doesn't have super long neck like other dragons. Plot device.

One Dragon got brought down by a fish hook. Grapple hook, now call me crazy, but considering the point of a hook and dragon scales both fact the same direction the hook would not be able to latch onto the dragon unless the dragon was going backwards. Not to mention even Danys young dragons, can snap chains, or the idea of trying to hook a flying moving target. Now even if you managed to get it between two scales all it will do is pull out a scale. It was just more horrible writing to kill off fa dragon.

Then you have a dragon that can only fly in short bursts making out to Dragonstone, Martin does not even try to explain it, it was just well it happened so there.

All in all the story was a pile of crap, and Martin will use the excuse that it just one persons historical take on it and was doing a lot of guessing. Martin owed a book, it was suppose to be the next Dunk and Egg, but he suddenly switched to this. He didn't even use his standard 3rd person limited that much. That takes to long. He owed a book and he didn't want the She wolves out yet. So he tossed in some table scraps he probably had written down for the World book. Notice it is a historical count of the story, and written much the way the World book is suppose to be written.

[Kienn]

Dance eliminates most of them, Maesters convince Aegon the dragon bane to kill most of the remainders, and poison the few left when he tries to breed them again.

Not complicated.

[Panos Targaryen]

It's not a plot device, it's just bad writing.

Dragons are vulnerable to drunk people who are also immune to fire. Drunk people fear nothing and this makes them great at killing dragons. Bad writing.

Dragons are weak and stupid without a rider.

Take the Dragon pit, one dragon flew around and tried to escape. But stayed in the air breathing fire. I would not really call that bad writing. But the Dragon that was outside decided not to breath fire and to land in the middle of the crowd. That was bad writing.

One dragon got backed into it's den and none of the men could get to it. Lucky a never before mentioned back door was there and lucky for the men the dragon is unable to turn around because the chains are super short and it doesn't have super long neck like other dragons. Plot device.

One Dragon got brought down by a fish hook. Grapple hook, now call me crazy, but considering the point of a hook and dragon scales both fact the same direction the hook would not be able to latch onto the dragon unless the dragon was going backwards. Not to mention even Danys young dragons, can snap chains, or the idea of trying to hook a flying moving target. Now even if you managed to get it between two scales all it will do is pull out a scale. It was just more horrible writing to kill off fa dragon.

Then you have a dragon that can only fly in short bursts making out to Dragonstone, Martin does not even try to explain it, it was just well it happened so there.

All in all the story was a pile of crap, and Martin will use the excuse that it just one persons historical take on it and was doing a lot of guessing. Martin owed a book, it was suppose to be the next Dunk and Egg, but he suddenly switched to this. He didn't even use his standard 3rd person limited that much. That takes to long. He owed a book and he didn't want the She wolves out yet. So he tossed in some table scraps he probably had written down for the World book. Notice it is a historical count of the story, and written much the way the World book is suppose to be written.

Easy there, the story was fine. And the fact that it is written by a maester who lived almost 200 hundred years after the war is not an excuse by GRRM, it makes the novella more realistic. There's no bad writing, just in-universe historical inaccuracies. The dragon pit scene, which you describe as bad writing, is an example of just that, either the maester doesn't have all his facts straight, or he is trying to cover up how the 4 dragons really died. Many things you describe as impossible or bad writing are just mistakes by the maester. It's meant to be a book from within the ASOIAF universe, not a lore addition or a prequel.

[TheMysteriousOne]

Before The Princess and the Queen came out, there was no indication that most Targaryen dragons died in the war.

This is incorrect.

Ser Jorah shrugged. "A dragon's natural span of days is many times as long as a man's, or so the songs would have us believe ... but the dragons the Seven Kingdoms knew best were those of House Targaryen. They were bred for war, and in war they died. It is no easy thing to slay a dragon, but it can be done."

[Panos Targaryen]

This is incorrect.

Ser Jorah shrugged. "A dragon's natural span of days is many times as long as a man's, or so the songs would have us believe ... but the dragons the Seven Kingdoms knew best were those of House Targaryen. They were bred for war, and in war they died. It is no easy thing to slay a dragon, but it can be done."

He's talking about dragons in general here. Not specifically about their extinction 150 years ago. And even if he were, the mass slaughter we see in TPQ is something no foreshadowing ever mentioned.

[RoamingRonin]

It's not a plot device, it's just bad writing.

...

:lol:

Can't say I disagree with most of this. I had to stop reading for a moment when the mob killed the dragons in the pit. I felt like I was watching a very bad movie produced by U Wot M8 studios.

GRRM has done this mass killing a lot. It's very frustrating. The Great Ranging Beyond the Wall, Stannis' death march in the North, the Red Wedding, the Pale Mare and upcoming war with Meereen (the commanders are so stupid there's no way they can win)... He's trying to weaken the world for the war with the Others, obviously, but it's kind of silly how everyone is just rushing to die. I've always wondered if people in this world are that stupid, how there are any people alive after Robert's Rebellion.

[TheMysteriousOne]

He's talking about dragons in general here. Not specifically about their extinction 150 years ago. And even if he were, the mass slaughter we see in TPQ is something no foreshadowing ever mentioned.

You claimed that there is no indication, in-series, that the Targaryen dragons died in war, and I've provided evidence disproving that statement. In this quote, Jorah isn't talking about dragons, in general, he's talking specifically about the Targaryen dragons. Look at this line: but the dragons the Seven Kingdoms knew best were those of House Targaryen. They were bred for war, and in war they died. No, it doesn't explicitly state that they were massively slaughtered, but it's quite clear that GRRM had intended for many of the dragons to die in war.

Note that the dragons were not eradicated during the Dance, but some survived, and these (obviously) reproduced, as the last Targaryen dragon died during Aegon III's reign, and it was small and sickly (in contrast to the dragons we see in TPATQ). My theory is that after witnessing the havoc and upheaval caused to the realm by the Targaryens and their dragons, the Maesters decided that they were far too dangerous and began poisoning them.