Too many new cast members for season 5?

[Constantinople]

The assumption around these parts seems to be that Season 5 of GoT will combine material from AFFC and ADWD, and I think that's reasonable: I certainly can't imagine that cutting out Dany, Jon and Tyrion from season 5 would go down at all well with show-watchers.

Furthermore (and I say this as a big fan of FFC and DwD), it's also assumed that the relatively "talky" nature of these two books, which are short on action, will mean they're unlikely to be able to be stretched to more than about 1.5 seasons: again, this is something I'd agree with. I see season 4 having perhaps 10% of the FFC/DwD material, season 5 covering the bulk of it, with season 6 finishing up the remaining 15-20% or so before moving into WoW territory.

My concern, though, is this. Compressing the two very large novels into about 1.5 seasons means that Season 5 will introduce a hell of a lot of important new characters, whom TV viewers will have very little time to bond with. Off the top of my head, I can think of at least:

Doran Martell

Arianne Martell

Quentyn Martell

At least one Sand Snake

Victarion Greyjoy

Euron Greyjoy

Wyman Manderly

Griff

Young Griff

The Kindly Man

Lady Stoneheart (who I'm counting here as a new character)

As being relatively important new characters, important on the level of the introduction of Stannis and Melisandre in Season 2. On top of that, there's a whole number of others who, while perhaps "cuttable", will likely be named secondary characters, such as:

Aeron Greyjoy

Randyll Tarly

Aero Hotah

Another Sand Snake or two

At least two of Arianne's co-conspirators

The High Septon

Septon Merribald

Septa Lemore

Hyle Hunt

Homeless Harry Strickland

Aurane Waters

Barbey Dustin

Val

Dalla

"Nurse"

Moquorro

And I've probably forgotten many more.

So, the question is: how does the TV show both include such a veritable flood of new characters without forgetting half the old ones and losing all sense of pace?

[Obebb]

I think if Oberyn at least talks a little about his family in season 4, then the meeting of Doran, Arianne, a sand snake, and all the other Martells won't be too crazy. And if Arianne and the sand snakes get really sexy actresses, they'll be all the easier to remember :kiss:

Since we already know Theon so well, introducing two of his uncles shouldn't be too much of a shock. And I'm sure everyone will have no trouble with Randyll Tarly once they realize he is Sam's mean father.

I am worried about Griff and Young Griff though. I don't think a casual viewer of the show really knows anyone in the Targeryen family save for Aerys the Mad King and "Khaleesi" with her evil dead brother. It would be a lot of explaining and I don't know if people could remember. But they could probably pull it off.

I think a lot of the people you mentioned in that second list will probably be cut. I hope Val won't be cut though.

But overall I have faith that the show will do well.

[Chuck88]

Doran Martell - Yep

Arianne Martell - Yep

Quentyn Martell - Yep but I look forward to seeing how they handle this one

At least one Sand Snake - Probably but Ellaria might yet be involved

Victarion Greyjoy - Absolutely essential

Euron Greyjoy - See above

Wyman Manderly - Yep

Griff - Yep

Young Griff - Probably yep
- All of the above are pretty important. Euron and Vic especially.
The Kindly Man - Not so essential - Wouldn't like to see it but Jaqen could take on a similar role.

Lady Stoneheart (who I'm counting here as a new character) - Not really a new character, though.

Aeron Greyjoy - Probably essential but less so than the other two.

Randyll Tarly - Been mentioned in the show by name several times so I'd say he's in

Aero Hotah - Not hugely important. Serves as little more than a pair of eyes in the book. I'm all for having a burly, nameless extra holding an axe in silence

Another Sand Snake or two - Can be dropped or made into smaller roles

At least two of Arianne's co-conspirators - Again can be very small roles

The High Septon - I'd have this on your first list.

Septon Merribald - Would be cool but expendable

Septa Lemore - Think she'll make the cut. Tyrion will get plenty of new characters added around him.

Hyle Hunt - Think we might lose him. Might even get Gendry to replace him.

Homeless Harry Strickland - Expendable

Aurane Waters - Expendable

Barbey Dustin - Can be a one episode role easily.

Val - Think we'll get her.

Dalla - Can be reported on but doesn't need cast

"Nurse" - Not sure who this is to be honest :blush:

Moquorro - Pretty essential if they keep Vic to the books. Will be a memorable character visually as well.

I'd add Jeyne Poole to that list - at the risk of derailing the thread into another ridiculous string of suggestions about which female (or male) character can take on her role.

I think there will be a cull of characters after season 4. Tywin, Ygritte, Joffrey, Lysa, Shae, Beric, Oberyn and Balon are all going to be off the payroll. Possibly even Rory McCann.

We will also lose other characters for reasons other than them being killed off. I'd expect Osha, Rickon, Bronn and Gendry all to be absent for a while at least. Gendry could actually take on Hyle Hunt's role and not F things up too much unlike (insert random 18-30 year old female character here) replacing Jeyne Poole would.

There's also Polliver, Styr, Gregor and Dontos to consider. Grenn, Edd, Locke, Alliser and whoever Joseph Gatt is playing are all potential casualties of season 4 as well.

Plus, season 4 actually isn't introducing that many new characters, especially compared to season 3. Oberyn will last a season, as will Styr. Mace Tyrell, Bloodraven and Hizdahr are the only three that will have any sort of major role in the story going forward.

I think it'll balance itself out nicely :)

[Lord of the Twins]

I am worried about Griff and Young Griff though. I don't think a casual viewer of the show really knows anyone in the Targeryen family save for Aerys the Mad King and "Khaleesi" with her evil dead brother. It would be a lot of explaining and I don't know if people could remember. But they could probably pull it off.

Oberyn is in King's Landing for justice. For his plotline to be understood, he will have to talk about Rhaegar and Elia and their kids Aegon and Rhaenys. "You raped her! You murdered her! You killed her children!"

If they were to introduce them now I think it would be a problem, but after Oberyn show-only viewers should have no trouble. Oberyn will likely bring up Lyanna Stark too at some point, but that's a separate issue.

Also, they'll probably want to cast Brusco and the Waif for Arya's story line, so there is more than one person she talks to.

Nurse takes care of Yurkaz zo Yunzak's (?) slaves, including Tyrion. He is the one that Tyrion kills with some of the mushrooms he picked in Illyrio's manse to escape and join the Second Sons. I don't think he's necessary-they can just have Yurkaz zo Yunzak as a minor 1-2 episode role in Season 5. He buys them at the beginning of one episode, which ends with Daznak's pits, in the next episode they show him die of the Pale Mare or just have Tyrion mention that he did. He could be a (really fat) featured extra.

[therustman]

With Quentyn they don't need any pre-Meereen scenes. It can be mentioned by Doran and Arianne that he's gone and we meet him when Daario presents the Wnd Blown turncoats to Dany. Bit of back story during the dialogue with Dany and he's a 2 or 3 episode character.

[Annara Snow]

You forgot:

Penny (surely she's more important than Nurse, and obviously is going to last longer)

Jeyne Poole (every suggestion for people who could replace her have been absolutely ridiculous, and there's no need to have anyone else play the role of Jeyne Poole, just have Jeyne Poole. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Yes, there was an extra playing her in season 1, but she will go the way of the guy who first played Beric)

Elder Brother (could be merged with Septon Meribald perhaps, or rather, Septon Meribald could be merged with him)

The High Septon is essential.

Some of the characters that can be cut:

Areo Hoteh, at least as a speaking role.

Dalla (can just be an extra)

Barbrey Dustin (she's basically just there so we would learn about Brandon's womanizing ways and realize it was probably him that got Ashara pregnant, which means nothing to the TV audience)

Alys Karstark - I'd love for her to be in the story, but I fear they will cut her

Some characters who may or may not be important, depending on what's in store for them in later books:

Val

Gerold Dayne

Septa Lemore

Sand Snakes - at least one of them will be in the show, but some will definitely get the cut; the question is how many and which ones (Nymeria is probably in, because she's going to be in King's Landing, but the others?

Sarella may become important in the Citadel story, but the casting for that role would be really difficult)

[Colonel Green]

Nobody's mentioned the Vale yet, so my rundown:

We already know this season we're getting:

Yohn Royce

Anya Waynwood

Next season:

1. Lyn Corbray (essential; may just be a one-episode part, depending on how the LD story is dramatized)

2. Lords Hunter, Templeton, Redfort & Belmore (basically extras; give one or two a line here or there and you're fine).

3. Maester Colemon (bit part, but if they're staging this story anything like the books, probably necessary)

4. Mya Stone (possibly expendable, or merged with Myranda Royce; see below)

5. Myranda Royce (of Sansa's two new gal pals at the end of the season, seems more likely to be important going forward; they used her name for Ramsay's psycho minion, so I've been wondering if they're going to change in on the basis that "Myranda" and "Mya" are too similar)

6. Nestor Royce (his fate is most likely bound up in how important his daughter ends up being)

[Chuck88]

It's also worth noting that a lot of these characters don't need to show up until season 6. I'd say the Greyjoy bros and Tyrion's new entourage including Griff and Young Griff will need to be introduced season 5. As will Jeyne Poole and Randyll Tarly. Probably Manderly as well.

I'd say it would make more sense for the Martells to appear season 5 as well but you could hold off on them until six with a bit of creative tweaking. Quentyn can definitely wait until season 6. His story is pointless before he arrives in Meereen.

This is all dependant on AFFC and ADWD lasting two solid seasons of course.

[Colonel Green]

This is all dependant on AFFC and ADWD lasting two solid seasons of course.

I would say that's unlikely.

Regarding Randyl Tarly, while this obviously depends on how Brienne's mission is dramatized, there's no urgent reason for him to appear based on AFFC/ADWD. He doesn't do anything terribly important.

[Annara Snow]

Nobody's mentioned the Vale yet, so my rundown:

We already know this season we're getting:

Yohn Royce

Anya Waynwood

Next season:

1. Lyn Corbray (essential; may just be a one-episode part, depending on how the LD story is dramatized)

2. Lords Hunter, Templeton, Redfort & Belmore (basically extras; give one or two a line here or there and you're fine).

3. Maester Colemon (bit part, but if they're staging this story anything like the books, probably necessary)

4. Mya Stone (possibly expendable, or merged with Myranda Royce; see below)

5. Myranda Royce (of Sansa's two new gal pals at the end of the season, seems more likely to be important going forward; they used her name for Ramsay's psycho minion, so I've been wondering if they're going to change in on the basis that "Myranda" and "Mya" are too similar)

6. Nestor Royce (his fate is most likely bound up in how important his daughter ends up being)

I think Nestor may get merged with Yohn Royce. Even many book readers have trouble telling them apart and remembering who's the father of whom. Unless there is going to be some big conflict between Yohn and Nestor in WoW or they end up on opposite sides.

[Colonel Green]

Unless there is going to be some big conflict between Yohn and Nestor in WoW or they end up on opposite sides.

They already are on opposing sides, albeit not in open conflict. I think Nestor will have to either be dropped completely or introduced as his own character, because none of his plot functions could be transferred to Yohn without seriously altering that character. Nestor is Littlefinger's bought man, Yohn is Littlefinger's sworn enemy.

It's possible they might be "merged" in the sense of making Myranda Yohn's daughter, but that also probably requires more information than we have (in terms of what game Myranda may be playing, for instance; if, as a lot of people speculate, Yohn tipped her off to investigate "Alayne", it would be an easy change).

[Jiriki]

Good topic.

I think they will combine many of these characters, just as they did with Robert's bastards. Some of the Martells and Greyjoys, for sure, will be combined. And many side characters will be jettisoned altogether.

And why the need for three septons/septas? Some will be cut and their lines given to others. The High Septon can just as easily have a conversation with Varys as with other septons. The others will be dropped.

Lady Stoneheart isn't likely to appear regularly. An important part, but just a guest-starring role, not a regular starring role.

Most of the second-stringers on your list will be culled or combined. However, I do agree with you that eventually, the cast will be culled. There's no way they can keep adding to the cast without an eventual cast purge. TV shows don't retain their actors indefinitely. Actors move on, particularly when they have very few scenes, as new actors come on board. And some of the original actors will have very little to do during the next few seasons, unless some lines are rearranged and given to different actors.

[Colonel Green]

The High Septon can just as easily have a conversation with Varys as with other septons.

No, not really. It's very difficult to see how Varys would fit into that role.

However, I do agree with you that eventually, the cast will be culled. There's no way they can keep adding to the cast without an eventual cast purge. TV shows don't retain their actors indefinitely. Actors move on, particularly when they have very few scenes, as new actors come on board. And some of the original actors will have very little to do during the next few seasons, unless some lines are rearranged and given to different actors.

Um, I have no idea what you mean here. Nobody's been talking about "culling" the cast in any sense other than people whose characters die in the next season are obviously done with the show. Surviving characters aren't going anywhere; they're under contract.

[Jiriki]

Um, I have no idea what you mean here. Nobody's been talking about "culling" the cast in any sense other than people whose characters die in the next season are obviously done with the show. Surviving characters aren't going anywhere; they're under contract.

Cast members leave TV shows all the time, whether they are under contract or not. It's exceedingly rare for a cast to remain intact throughout the run of a TV show. Television contracts are broken constantly.

OP stated "I certainly can't imagine that cutting out Dany, Jon and Tyrion from season 5 would go down at all well with show-watchers," and I agree, but they're not going to be able to fit in so many new characters without cutting out other parts.

[Colonel Green]

People on this show knew what they were potentially signing up for, given the series length -- besides which, for most of the cast, this show doesn't really take up much of the year, even compared to a network show where the production schedule is spread out over most of the year.

[Jiriki]

Your premise was that the actors weren't going anywhere because they're under contract. That simply isn't reality in the television world. Actors leave shows all the time. What was the last show you can remember where none of the principal cast left partway into the show's run? I can think of only a handful.

I'm not sure any of the actors involved "knew what they were potentially signing up for". Because when the original actors were signed, it was Spring/Summer 2009. No one knew at that time that the series would remain unfinished for years to come. Book 5 was said to be nearing completion. Those estimates were wildly off.

Back to the OP's point: some things are going to have to be compressed, because there's no way they can add so many new actors and actresses and keep the old ones, and still have a sensible story that non-book readers will understand. The show already has the largest cast on television. Sacrifices will be made to tell an intelligible story that still is within their huge budget.

[Colonel Green]

I'm not sure any of the actors involved "knew what they were potentially signing up for". Because when the original actors were signed, it was Spring/Summer 2009. No one knew at that time that the series would remain unfinished for years to come. Book 5 was said to be nearing completion. Those estimates were wildly off.

I fail to see what that has to do with anything. The writers have said that GRRM's writing pace will not dictate the schedule of the show.

[Jiriki]

Yes, they did say that. And you said "Surviving characters aren't going anywhere; they're under contract." Which ignores the entire history of television.

[DaveyJoe]

No, not really. It's very difficult to see how Varys would fit into that role.

Um, I have no idea what you mean here. Nobody's been talking about "culling" the cast in any sense other than people whose characters die in the next season are obviously done with the show. Surviving characters aren't going anywhere; they're under contract.

Contract doesn't mean that much. I work in television and I've seen contracts broken for far less than what these actors stand to gain for moving onto something more lucrative. HBO is notorious for underpaying actors, and it's easy to break a contract for a gig that will pay more. It's not like this precedent hasn't all ready been set, look at Conan Stevens who left GoT to do the Hobbit. In fact, we'll see a fresh recast for Daario Naharis this season, do you think the original actors wasn't under contract?

[Jiriki]

Contract doesn't mean that much. I work in television and I've seen contracts broken for far less than what these actors stand to gain for moving onto something more lucrative.

Yes. Exactly. And it doesn't even have to be more money. It could just be a larger role; some actors in later seasons will have very little to do in later seasons. Or actors could tire of flying to Iceland every year: it would be fun at first, but tiring/cold after a few years.

it's easy to break a contract for a gig that will pay more. It's not like this precedent hasn't all ready been set, look at Conan Stevens who left GoT to do the Hobbit. In fact, we'll see a fresh recast for Daario Naharis this season, do you think the original actors wasn't under contract?

Good points: roles have already been recast. I hope recasting won't happen to the main cast, but it's certainly possible.