Too many new cast members for season 5?

[boojam]

My guess is that most of the Westerosi will be held back or consolidated, secondary characters eliminated.

Tom Wlaschiha will be back as the 'Kindly Man'.

Val should have already made an appearance or cast this year, she may be eliminated.

You left of a whole boatload of Essosi characters.

I think the drama , except at the Wall, will shift to Essos in season 5 ... with the invention of, or pulling forward of WoW material.

Just my guess, but the Ironborn will get their time, it's just the kind of whacked out stuff to spice things up and D and D seem to like the over the top stuff.

[protar]

Braavos

No idea.

I think Braavos will see Sam and Arya's storylines more heavily intertwined then they are in the book. The first few episodes will have Arya training in the HoBaW with Jaqen returning instead of the Kindly Man. Meanwhile Sam is still at the Wall as Val and Dalla (and therefore Dalla's baby) are introduced and then Dalla dies. Mid-season Sam is sent off to Oldtown and makes his stop at Braavos. Jaqen sends Arya to work in the same inn Sam, Aemon, Gilly and (I think) Pyp are staying in. We'll have the whole drama with Pyp deserting and then when Jaqen goes off on his mission to Oldtown Arya will help Sam by organising him to hitch a ride on Jaqen's ship.

[SM4e]

Dorne

I´ve already stated how I feel about Dorne. Basically I could imagine it all cut or moved until later.

The Iron Island

Victarion and Euron I think is a given and while where there I don’t see why we wouldn’t be getting Aeron as well. If nothing else so that Victarion has someone to talk to.

Ashas storyline is completely unpredictable (except that we will get the sex scene as shown in the trailer) but I don’t see why she wouldn’t be surrounded by the same people as in the books.

Whiteharbor/Winterfell

Wyman is in and so is Jayne Poole. As for the others they´re just a jumble of Freys and Northerners that might or might not be named.

Essos (Tyrions storyline)

I see Penny and the whole slave thing being cut so to leave enough space for Illyrio, G&YG and proper Tyrion – Jorah interaction.

Braavos

No idea.

Kings Landing

Agree with you except I think you forgot Taena and I don´t think Bronn will be there for long, but on that to we seem to agree.

Riverlands

Basically agree.

The Vale

Agree and I hope Lyn Corbray will become important. He´s a really cool character, although he´s a peado. Maybe he could be merged with Harry the Heir?

The Wall

I see the Karstark subplot being cut but as you say it´s hard to tell. Jon has enough material to last double the amount of time as many of the others.

Oh and now Locke! (Which I’ve written in another thread I think will be a replacement for Rattleshirt)

@King's Landing: I assume Bronn will take park at Jaime's journey and only be at KL in the first/second/third episode, then gone. Yeah, Taena or a replacement of her seem probable.

@The Vale: I thought more of Corbray being a leader type and leading whatever war the Vale will face.

@The Wall: I forgot Janos and Locke, yeah. Well they introduced Rattleshirt already and I suppose they will do it like TV!Alliser Thorne = Donal Noye OR Bowen Marsh (or they reintroduce Bowen Marsh), Janos Slynt = himself and Locke = Book!Alliser Thorne

[Annara Snow]

I think Braavos will see Sam and Arya's storylines more heavily intertwined then they are in the book. The first few episodes will have Arya training in the HoBaW with Jaqen returning instead of the Kindly Man. Meanwhile Sam is still at the Wall as Val and Dalla (and therefore Dalla's baby) are introduced and then Dalla dies. Mid-season Sam is sent off to Oldtown and makes his stop at Braavos. Jaqen sends Arya to work in the same inn Sam, Aemon, Gilly and (I think) Pyp are staying in. We'll have the whole drama with Pyp deserting and then when Jaqen goes off on his mission to Oldtown Arya will help Sam by organising him to hitch a ride on Jaqen's ship.

Even if Jaqen comes back to interact with Arya, he's already changed his face, so it doesn't make sense for him to look like Tom again. I doubt that the audience will feel the same about seeing Arya and Jaqen together again, if he's not played by Tom.

I hope that they don't try to use Pyp that way and turn him into an asshole. Minor characters shouldn't be treated as blank slates and pieces you can exchange and move any way you want.

[protar]

Even if Jaqen comes back to interact with Arya, he's already changed his face, so it doesn't make sense for him to look like Tom again. I doubt that the audience will feel the same about seeing Arya and Jaqen together again, if he's not played by Tom.

I hope that they don't try to use Pyp that way and turn him into an asshole. Minor characters shouldn't be treated as blank slates and pieces you can exchange and move any way you want.

Still I expect that is what will happen. If it's just a complete 180 of his character, I won't be cool with it. If it's treated as an actual character arc - show him going through hell in S4, getting tempted to leave in S5 - then I'll be all right with it.

[Fez]

I think quite the opposite. Good story telling is not reducing the characters to simple plot devices to tick off a list of narrative check boxes. If S5 debuts with a load of nobodies with no effort made to make us care about them, the show will be down the drain pretty quickly. Most casual viewers don't care that this is an adaptation, however you've also got to remain faithful to the original work.

In terms of general story telling, I absolutely agree. But there already are loads of good characters, and even with the deaths this season, there's only room for maybe a handful more, not all the ones that are required. And I think I've made it clear that I don't S5 will debut a load of new characters without characterization, I think it will debut a handful of new characters with limited characterization. The amount of screen time Salladhor Saan has had so far is basically how much time I think Euron will get, for instance.

And no, I really I don't think they need to remain all that faithful to the original work, at least, no more than they already have. Their purpose, their only purpose, should be to create a good TV show. They've (mostly) refrained from needless changes, but D&D have always shown a willingness to diverge from the books when it either simplify or improves things, or ideally does both (such as Arya being Tywin's cupbearer). That's why, for instance, I think the Dornish plot will just be about their support of Dany, and the whole Myrcella as Queen thing ends up being nothing more than a couple throwaway lines.

[johnnysd]

It's also worth noting that a lot of these characters don't need to show up until season 6. I'd say the Greyjoy bros and Tyrion's new entourage including Griff and Young Griff will need to be introduced season 5. As will Jeyne Poole and Randyll Tarly. Probably Manderly as well.

I'd say it would make more sense for the Martells to appear season 5 as well but you could hold off on them until six with a bit of creative tweaking. Quentyn can definitely wait until season 6. His story is pointless before he arrives in Meereen.

This is all dependant on AFFC and ADWD lasting two solid seasons of course.

Which is very unlikely. I suspect next season they wrap up both books. Maybe they get a few extra episodes to do it.

[protar]

In terms of general story telling, I absolutely agree. But there already are loads of good characters, and even with the deaths this season, there's only room for maybe a handful more, not all the ones that are required. And I think I've made it clear that I don't S5 will debut a load of new characters without characterization, I think it will debut a handful of new characters with limited characterization. The amount of screen time Salladhor Saan has had so far is basically how much time I think Euron will get, for instance.

And no, I really I don't think they need to remain all that faithful to the original work, at least, no more than they already have. Their purpose, their only purpose, should be to create a good TV show. They've (mostly) refrained from needless changes, but D&D have always shown a willingness to diverge from the books when it either simplify or improves things, or ideally does both (such as Arya being Tywin's cupbearer). That's why, for instance, I think the Dornish plot will just be about their support of Dany, and the whole Myrcella as Queen thing ends up being nothing more than a couple throwaway lines.

Well if you've seen any of my posts around the forum you'll know that I consider any large scale changes to be unnecessary and disrespectful to the source material. So I don't see cutting out the Dornish or Ironborn as a valid option and therefore I believe they need to be done justice, not just turned into plot devices.

[Peasant Rebel Leader]

I think you two agree to quite a large degree on the general principle. The decisive variable we can't really discuss in depth in here is what is possible - minute-wise, budget-wise, contract-wise, numbers-of-actors etc. - in a single season. Cutting out the Dornish is entirely possible, the tv show after all is a different beast, even if it's been quite faithful to the source material. (if you compare it to similar works like f.e. True Blood or only adaptions from UK shows like Being Human.).

Just looking at the lists in here it seems improbable that they can include it all, but then again, they do have more than the 10 episodes of season 5. They can push things forwards and backwards as they wish. I'm more on the side of "Euron has the same amount of screentime as Sallador Saan. But "Myrcella-as-queen" doesn't take up many scenes and it can include a very sexy sex scene. It also fits various themes and "Myrcella as queen" is a very modern plot points and they do tend to like those (i.e. Talisa). So I'm pretty positive it'll get included. But yes, they can cut that if this is what the tv show needs.

[boojam]

Even if Jaqen comes back to interact with Arya, he's already changed his face, so it doesn't make sense for him to look like Tom again. I doubt that the audience will feel the same about seeing Arya and Jaqen together again, if he's not played by Tom.

I hope that they don't try to use Pyp that way and turn him into an asshole. Minor characters shouldn't be treated as blank slates and pieces you can exchange and move any way you want.

Can always change your face back again.

(GRRM does not state anywhere that you can't.)

Arya does.

Anyway I have brought this up twice before.

If one carefully reads the passage in ADWD , after Arya's 'face change' , Aray discovers his face HAS NOT CHANGED, she feels all around it and it's the same, to all else (we suppose, after all the FM are mysterious so we don' know for them) but to the non FM Arya looks different, that OK.

What this all means GRRM has never explained.

[Annara Snow]

I think you two agree to quite a large degree on the general principle. The decisive variable we can't really discuss in depth in here is what is possible - minute-wise, budget-wise, contract-wise, numbers-of-actors etc. - in a single season. Cutting out the Dornish is entirely possible, the tv show after all is a different beast, even if it's been quite faithful to the source material. (if you compare it to similar works like f.e. True Blood or only adaptions from UK shows like Being Human.).

Just looking at the lists in here it seems improbable that they can include it all, but then again, they do have more than the 10 episodes of season 5. They can push things forwards and backwards as they wish. I'm more on the side of "Euron has the same amount of screentime as Sallador Saan. But "Myrcella-as-queen" doesn't take up many scenes and it can include a very sexy sex scene. It also fits various themes and "Myrcella as queen" is a very modern plot points and they do tend to like those (i.e. Talisa). So I'm pretty positive it'll get included. But yes, they can cut that if this is what the tv show needs.

Maybe it's possible to cut out the Dornish, but would they want to do it? Let's see: after introducing the audience to Oberyn and Ellaria, D&D are going to decide what to do with Dorne, that really nice-looking place with warm Mediterranean climate, full of hot female characters walking around, no doubt, in appropriately skimpy clothes (it's warm!) and behaving according to the open-minded ideas about sex and sexuality that are a part of Dornish culture, and they're going to... cut it out entirely? Hmmm... ;)

Can always change your face back again.

(GRRM does not state anywhere that you can't.)

Arya does.

Anyway I have brought this up twice before.

If one carefully reads the passage in ADWD , after Arya's 'face change' , Aray discovers his face HAS NOT CHANGED, she feels all around it and it's the same, to all else (we suppose, after all the FM are mysterious so we don' know for them) but to the non FM Arya looks different, that OK.

What this all means GRRM has never explained.

Yes, Arya does, but it's against the entire philosophy of the FM, isn't it? They are supposed to be "no one", so Jaqen shouldn't be appearing in his old face, or under the name Jaqen H'ghar, for that matter.

As to what exactly they're actually doing with their faces, after reading ADWD I'm even more confused.

[franko99]

I think Braavos will see Sam and Arya's storylines more heavily intertwined then they are in the book. The first few episodes will have Arya training in the HoBaW with Jaqen returning instead of the Kindly Man. Meanwhile Sam is still at the Wall as Val and Dalla (and therefore Dalla's baby) are introduced and then Dalla dies. Mid-season Sam is sent off to Oldtown and makes his stop at Braavos. Jaqen sends Arya to work in the same inn Sam, Aemon, Gilly and (I think) Pyp are staying in. We'll have the whole drama with Pyp deserting and then when Jaqen goes off on his mission to Oldtown Arya will help Sam by organising him to hitch a ride on Jaqen's ship.

Daeron has been named in season 1 (and played by an extra) and season 3, when Sam sing to Gilly's baby, and since he's a small character I don't see any problem introducing him as a new character in season 5, he won't last more than 2 or 3 episodes, and doesn't need any development or screentime at all, just being an asshole to Sam and Gilly, desert, and his meeting Cat of the canals

[boojam]

Yes, Arya does, but it's against the entire philosophy of the FM, isn't it? They are supposed to be "no one", so Jaqen shouldn't be appearing in his old face, or under the name Jaqen H'ghar, for that matter.

As to what exactly they're actually doing with their faces, after reading ADWD I'm even more confused.

Well I don't know if really does go against the whole philosophy of the FM, since GRRM leaves a lot of very mystery about them hidden.

But anyway that episode The Ugly Little Girl (I thought the best George wrote for the book) .... right after she has examined her own face and says ...determines... her face is still her nameday face , she says... "It feels the same."

The priest, was that the Kindly Man?... says:

"To you," said the priest.

(... but..) "It does not look the same."

"To other eyes" , ... he goes on to explain her face....

To other eyes? Do the FM see her that way too?....

She thinks "I have a new face. An ugly broken face." ... viscerally she knows she has her original face!

This is ok with me, but boy! What a puzzle!

People on the street see her as The Ugly Little Girl, yet in reality she has her own face!

O well, I love weirdness.

Then at the end of that chapter:

"That nigtht they gave her back the face of Arya Stark."

All the FM (and this was true in COK where Jaqen knew) all know she is Arya Stark, and they bring it up, ... so she can say I am nobody, I am lying?

I don't know, she hid Needle, and was not supposed to.

Has she fooled the FM... I don't think so...

I think both Braavos, the IB and the FM have an important mission for her, they want a High Born as an agent who is both a FM and not a FM.

I hope that's true... it's to intriguing.

[titanx5]

that dont necessarily have to show the face of the kindly man, they could have him under his cloak the whole time, and just here his voice. And when Arya says Jaqen, he just reply's Jaqen is no more

[Arkekansler]

Maybe it's possible to cut out the Dornish, but would they want to do it? Let's see: after introducing the audience to Oberyn and Ellaria, D&D are going to decide what to do with Dorne, that really nice-looking place with warm Mediterranean climate, full of hot female characters walking around, no doubt, in appropriately skimpy clothes (it's warm!) and behaving according to the open-minded ideas about sex and sexuality that are a part of Dornish culture, and they're going to... cut it out entirely? Hmmm... ;)

Well you make it sound like they base their decisions entirely around nice environment and opportunity for female nudity. While at least the last is a factor to some extent they don´t put it in front of good storytelling. After all The Wall and beyond has it´s fair amount of screen time and that’s a snow-covered wasteland with hardly any women and a butt load of clothes. If the story demands it they will choose practicality before esthetics. Also if they want a naked woman they can get a naked woman. Just put in a scene in a brothel, or Shae or possibly Cersie. So I don´t think this will play much of a part in the considerations. Especially since the beautiful women in question will appear later.

[Annara Snow]

Well you make it sound like they base their decisions entirely around nice environment and opportunity for female nudity. While at least the last is a factor to some extent they don´t put it in front of good storytelling.

Err, you think?... :lol:

You make it sound like cutting out Dorne would be "good storytelling". It would be pretty dumb. Dorne is an integral part of the storyline. Unlike the dozens and dozens of pointless brothel scenes they put in just to get some T&A.

After all The Wall and beyond has it´s fair amount of screen time and that’s a snow-covered wasteland with hardly any women and a butt load of clothes.

The woman who did appear got the most of the screentime, with her romance with Jon. If they could have had more nudity, I'm sure they would be willing to do it.

If the story demands it they will choose practicality before esthetics. Also if they want a naked woman they can get a naked woman. Just put in a scene in a brothel, or Shae or possibly Cersie. So I don´t think this will play much of a part in the considerations. Especially since the beautiful women in question will appear later.

:huh: Arianne appears right away, as do the Sand Snakes.

[Arkekansler]

Err, you think?... :lol:

You make it sound like cutting out Dorne would be "good storytelling". It would be pretty dumb. Dorne is an integral part of the storyline. Unlike the dozens and dozens of pointless brothel scenes they put in just to get some T&A.

The woman who did appear got the most of the screentime, with her romance with Jon. If they could have had more nudity, I'm sure they would be willing to do it.

:huh: Arianne appears right away, as do the Sand Snakes.

I´ve already explained that I think introducing the Iron Island and Dorne at roughly the same time might be a mistake with the risk of putting viewers against the show. I´ve also explained why I think Dorne is the most logical location to cut if that be the case. Only introducing it (at least to begin with) thru the characters that appear in other storylines. Because of this I do think it might be good storytelling to cut it. And if that is the case I don´t see the nude women having any impact on the decision. I don´t think they have had any completely pointless brothel scenes. Except perhaps Tripod but even that time the actual brothel wasn’t as useless as what followed.

Oh I’m sure they would have liked more nude Ygritte but the story didn’t allow for it so she remained clothed. (This is quite a pointless argument either way.)

When I say “the beautiful women will appear later” I mean that even if they leave Dorne out Arianne and the Sand Snakes will appear later in the story with Aegon and at Kingslanding.

[SM4e]

I´ve already explained that I think introducing the Iron Island and Dorne at roughly the same time might be a mistake with the risk of putting viewers against the show. I´ve also explained why I think Dorne is the most logical location to cut if that be the case. Only introducing it (at least to begin with) thru the characters that appear in other storylines. Because of this I do think it might be good storytelling to cut it. And if that is the case I don´t see the nude women having any impact on the decision. I don´t think they have had any completely pointless brothel scenes. Except perhaps Tripod but even that time the actual brothel wasn’t as useless as what followed.

My brother watched 3x01 yesterday and I walked in when Bronn was pointlessly screwing with a whore.

[franko99]

I think people here are really underestimating show watchers, they won't massively quite the show if Khaleesi had a little less screentime. If they do it right (and so far, the show is doing right, in spite of what some purist may say), D and D can make people to care and like the new characters and plotlines, just like we did when reading the books, actually Dorne, Ironborns and Young griff are FAR more interesting than Dany ruling Meereen or Tyrion aking everyone where whores go. As for people having a hard time remembering who is who, even the laziest, dumber and slower viewer will remember "the hot lady from Dorne" (Arianne), "princess Myrcella", "Mysterious evil pirate" (Euron) and "bad ass mothafaka" (Victarion) even if they never learn their real names (just like they love Khaleesi so much they even name their childrens after her :rolleyes: )

In the end, the question is "do you want a faithful adaptation of ASOIAF" or continue the "Khaleesi, Imp and Arya show, with sporadic appearance of Ned Stark's bastard and dumb ginger Stark". Needless to say, I prefer the former

[Arkekansler]

My brother watched 3x01 yesterday and I walked in when Bronn was pointlessly screwing with a whore.

Guessing you refer to the redhead in 3x1 (who isn’t actually a redhead btw) before he´s summoned to Tyrion. That´s like a 20 second segment before Pod shows up so it´s either that or Pod finding Bronn doing some other mundane thing. I guess they could have had Bronn show up directly at Tyrion.. Oh well. But Bronn is another fan favorite and that scene was funny. - I will murder you boy!