Nobody Seems To Be Taking The Others Seriously

[Winnief]

Oh yeah there is definitely a magical origin/meaning to the mantra of There Must Always Be A Stark In Winterfell that modern Westeros, even the modern Starks, have forgotten, treating it instead as the standard feudal wisdom of always defending your home castle first.

Which of course also suggests that, now that there is not a Stark in Winterfell, some Really Bad Shit is going to happen.

I've always gotten the impression that Azor Ahai's "victory" over The Others was negotiated at the treaty table and not a Resounding Defeat. There was a deal and humanity, in it short lifespan and memory, has somehow unwittingly welched on it. (And yes, something about The Stark bloodline, A Stark Always Being In Winterfell, and the castle itself even being called Winterfell, seems to have something to do with this deal).

Even more reasons, we gotta get Sansa and Rickon to Go Home.

Maybe that will be the ultimate significance of all the GoT scheming and backstabbing-all those various assholes out there, (Lannisters, Bolton's, Frey's, LF) actually are directly responsible for nearly extinguishing the bloodline needed to keep the Others at bay-you certainly succeeded in driving them off WF.

If that is the case, then I really, really want to see the Others come face to face personally with those responsible. Except it would mean the death of innocent parties as well, so we're stuck with having to kill them at the Wall.

My other even more crackpot idea is that The Others are going to skip The North, go easy on it, or even ally with one of The Starks (Bran or Jon, specifically) and act as some instrument of Northern Retaliation as a by-product of whatever their ultimate agenda happens to be. [Perhaps echoing how nasty and "bad" the ancient generations of Starks were and had to be. I could even see Jon sulking in his tent like Achilles and letting the Walkers do their thing, because Fuck Defending Those People They Just Ended Up Murdering All My Family And Stabbing Me A Dozen Times Anyway. Well actually I can't see Jon doing that, not yet anyway, but who knows what the new Jon Snow will be like now that the boy is dying and the man is being born. Jon may have an attitude adjustment after his temporary dirt nap :)]

And after A Dream Of Spring, the new House Stark Motto will be "I Told You So."

Jon would never be that mean. Arya on the other hand...

No, but I do like this idea that one reason the Wolves will come back, is that they have to come back, or we will all be killed by ice demons.

Well not "we" personally but you get the idea...

[Frances Bean Corbray]

If that is the case, then I really, really want to see the Others come face to face personally with those responsible. Except it would mean the death of innocent parties as well, so we're stuck with having to kill them at the Wall.

My one regret about how things have played out so far is that we'll never get to see Tywin Lannister and his brand of realpolitik and Shock-And-Awe "Total War" approach prove totally unsuitable, ineffective, and useless against The Others, an enemy that cannot be bribed, terrorized, or intimidated in the slightest, in the conventional manner.

They SHATTER steel weapons by looking at them funny, and you think "The Rains Of Castamere" is gonna scare them? LOL GTFO with that weaksauce.

Tywin's bluster and bravado ultimately proving as empty and impotent as Waymar Royce's would've been GLORIOUS. Ah well.

I suppose watching Littlefinger and Varys have similar problems will just have to do.

[Ser Lepus]

As an add-on to my OP, I believe that Winterfell will be a safe haven if and when the Others break through the wall.

Something tells me that When Bran the Builder built the wall using Giants and magic spells, that he used them to do the same with the building of Winterfell from the ground up.

I also think that the saying, "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell", is not a mere saying But, a WARNING!

Also, I believe that there is a Stark in Winterfell right now.

I think the hooded man is Benjen Stark.

Now, you might say that cannot be because the last we read he was beyond the wall doing some investigations. His group of riders all came back dead except for him. It has been suggested that Benjen is Cold Hands. I don't subscribe to that.

But, I remember reading that the Children of the Forest used a passageway/tunnel to get passed the wall.

I believe somewhere below the crypts in Winterfell is one such passageway. And I believe that Benjen Stark used it to get back to Winterfell.

Again, this falls under the same notion of my OP that Benjen Stark has been downplayed the same amount of time the Others has.

Now that the Others are real and rising up, a Hooded Man in Winterfell is killing off Ramsay's and Frey men.

Why not Manderly's men?

This is Benjen Stark because I believe Benjen understood the true meaning of a "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell".

I suspect that the magic that has been used in Winterfell can only work if a Stark is in Winterfell.

Which means that the only safe place throughout Westeros is Winterfell.

Winterfell may wind up being a prize everyone in Westeros will flock to when the Others break through the wall.

My point is that if and when the Others break through the wall, Winterfell will be unaffected as long as there is a Stark present.

The passage going from the Children of the Forest's cave under the Wall all the way to Winterfell has been mentioned, yes, but if that exists, it would be like 600 miles long, even if it were straight as an arrow and smooth as road. And it would probably not be straight or smooth, but full of corners, forks, pits, curves, loops and dead ends, a labyrinth rather than a tunnel, with a very irregular, rocky floor. And whoever used it to reach Winterfell would have to carry on his back thousands of torches and food enough for the whole treck.

I think it would have been easier for Benjen to climb the Wall (or use a shorter subterranean passage to cross the Wall) and walk through the forests than taking such a subterranean tunnel.

[Bronn Urgandy]

My one regret about how things have played out so far is that we'll never get to see Tywin Lannister and his brand of realpolitik and Shock-And-Awe "Total War" approach prove totally unsuitable, ineffective, and useless against The Others, an enemy that cannot be bribed, terrorized, or intimidated in the slightest, in the conventional manner.

They SHATTER steel weapons by looking at them funny, and you think "The Rains Of Castamere" is gonna scare them? LOL GTFO with that weaksauce.

Tywin's bluster and bravado ultimately proving as empty and impotent as Waymar Royce's would've been GLORIOUS. Ah well.

I suppose watching Littlefinger and Varys have similar problems will just have to do.

"Send forth Gregor and Amory Lorch, burn all the fields and..."

"Erm, why?"

"BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW WHAT ELSE TO DO!!"

[Clariana]

The point is made in the title it is the game of thrones...

What are games but trivial mortal passtimes while the true menace draws ever nearer...

[Winnief]

My one regret about how things have played out so far is that we'll never get to see Tywin Lannister and his brand of realpolitik and Shock-And-Awe "Total War" approach prove totally unsuitable, ineffective, and useless against The Others, an enemy that cannot be bribed, terrorized, or intimidated in the slightest, in the conventional manner.

"Send forth Gregor and Amory Lorch, burn all the fields and..."

"Erm, why?"

"BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW WHAT ELSE TO DO!!"

LOL. At least with Dany and her dragons, Tywin could *try* surrendering to her, but god the Others...entirely different thing altogether. The irony is that all these great political schemers like Varys and LF, may be hopeless against the Others, but this at least is one situation where folks like Robert, Ned, and Robb would have been really, REALLY useful. They didn't know the Game but they did know fighting-and Starks know winter.

And god help us all if we have the likes of Cersei, or even LF, in control, when the Others begin their march. None of Baelish's brilliance at plotting and double crossing is gonna do him-or the Realm-the slightest bit of good here. One thing, this series has demonstrated amply is that the qualities needed to take power are NOT the same as the qualities needed to rule well, and in fact can be in direct opposition-ESPECIALLY in the face of a major crisis. For something like this, you need people who can work together and make selfless efforts to deal with the threat in question. You also need to understand the metaphysics and magic of it. Does that sound like ANYONE in charge of Westeros right now?!?

[Frances Bean Corbray]

LOL. At least with Dany and her dragons, Tywin could *try* surrendering to her, but god the Others...entirely different thing altogether. The irony is that all these great political schemers like Varys and LF, may be hopeless against the Others, but this at least is one situation where folks like Robert, Ned, and Robb would have been really, REALLY useful. They didn't know the Game but they did know fighting-and Starks know winter.

And god help us all if we have the likes of Cersei, or even LF, in control, when the Others begin their march. None of Baelish's brilliance at plotting and double crossing is gonna do him-or the Realm-the slightest bit of good here. One thing, this series has demonstrated amply is that the qualities needed to take power are NOT the same as the qualities needed to rule well, and in fact can be in direct opposition-ESPECIALLY in the face of a major crisis. For something like this, you need people who can work together and make selfless efforts to deal with the threat in question. You also need to understand the metaphysics and magic of it. Does that sound like ANYONE in charge of Westeros right now?!?

And on that note I think I have a new "Favorite Robert Baratheon Moment" for that thread.

What's his line to Ned? I never felt as alive as I did when I was winning the throne, or as dead as I do keeping it."

Robert's exhibit A in how divergent the Conqueror and Administrator skillsets truly are.

Fast forward to ADWD, where Dany (and even Jon) are forced to learn this the hard way and struggle with it.

I do believe we've hit upon another one of GRRM's big themes in this work.

[Myrish Swamp Thing]

Maybe, if the Others were able to outpace a sleepy arthritic turtle....

[Ser Lepus]

LOL. At least with Dany and her dragons, Tywin could *try* surrendering to her, but god the Others...entirely different thing altogether. The irony is that all these great political schemers like Varys and LF, may be hopeless against the Others, but this at least is one situation where folks like Robert, Ned, and Robb would have been really, REALLY useful. They didn't know the Game but they did know fighting-and Starks know winter.

And god help us all if we have the likes of Cersei, or even LF, in control, when the Others begin their march. None of Baelish's brilliance at plotting and double crossing is gonna do him-or the Realm-the slightest bit of good here. One thing, this series has demonstrated amply is that the qualities needed to take power are NOT the same as the qualities needed to rule well, and in fact can be in direct opposition-ESPECIALLY in the face of a major crisis. For something like this, you need people who can work together and make selfless efforts to deal with the threat in question. You also need to understand the metaphysics and magic of it. Does that sound like ANYONE in charge of Westeros right now?!?

I think that even against Dany's army, Tywin's tactics would have proved less effective than against other lords. In Westeros they are used to a kind of war in which common folk are killed, raped and robbed blind, but knights and lords have a very high chance of being spared even if they lose (bend the knee and change sides, being ramsoned, or in the worst case, going to the Wall), so Tywin's tactics shocked them...but in Essos killing whole families, children and all, is just Wednesday.

[Mummers Dragon]

I can definitely see this series taking a turn like the 2nd half of "Dusk to Dawn", a total tone change that will probably get going about 1/3 thru WOW. Like previously mentioned, all those dead bodys hanging around the lands and waters of Westeros served up by the "game"...things will get veddy veddy interesting.

[Winterfell Resident]

To Mummers Dragon.

That was a great similarity you touched on with "From Dusk Till Dawn" Quentin Tarantino movie.

I think so too.

[Seneti]

My only problem with making the Others a LOOMING threat for so long is that, by the time they actually play their hand, there won't be much time for the Others to do anything very impressive.

If TWOW ends with say, the wall crashing down as the big finale, with the Others' army advancing, that only leaves one book, ADOS for them to wreak havoc and be stopped. Not much page space there to get the Others over as the big heavies, AND bring all of the then remaining characters' plotlines to their resolutions.

Same here. I did take the others seriously for three books. Now they just seem like a bad joke that needs overlong explanation to work...

But in a world where freaking dragons are real-not to mention giants and so forth, you'd think folks would be a little more willing to listen as reports keep coming in. Not mind you just peasant folk tales, but actual desperate pleas from NW commanders.

Except that very few people in Westeros believe that dragons are real and that giants south of the border are an incredibly rare sight (the only one I can recall now is the one the Yellow Whale once owned). I am really not surprised that nobody south of the Neck gives a f*** about the Night's Watch's reports and pleas.

[Mummers Dragon]

To Mummers Dragon.

That was a great similarity you touched on with "From Dusk Till Dawn" Quentin Tarantino movie.

I think so too.

Thanks for the title correction

[The Mighty Dragonzzilla]

I'm liking this idea of Westeros unconsciously weeding itself of its warriors, leaving only politicians to fight the Others. The irony of it all is delicious.

[Winnief]

I think that even against Dany's army, Tywin's tactics would have proved less effective than against other lords. In Westeros they are used to a kind of war in which common folk are killed, raped and robbed blind, but knights and lords have a very high chance of being spared even if they lose (bend the knee and change sides, being ramsoned, or in the worst case, going to the Wall), so Tywin's tactics shocked them...but in Essos killing whole families, children and all, is just Wednesday.

Bwa Ha Ha! Seriously, Tywin's tactics may scare the 7 Kingdoms, but to the likes of the Dothraki, it's just "So?" Good luck intimidating that crowd...

I'm liking this idea of Westeros unconsciously weeding itself of its warriors, leaving only politicians to fight the Others. The irony of it all is delicious.

Seriously. They're also of course weeding out everyone with bravery, character, loyalty, and compassion too, for vicious, cruel, duplicitous, wholly selfish types. YEah, that'll be helpful during a long winter...

[The Mighty Dragonzzilla]

Seriously. They're also of course weeding out everyone with bravery, character, loyalty, and compassion too, for vicious, cruel, duplicitous, wholly selfish types. Yeah, that'll be helpful during a long winter...

Definitely. I always entertain the idea of the crueler characters "winning" only to have to see their world crumble. I want to see the look of realization and sheer horror on their faces when their own brains tell them, ^{_{"THIS IS YOUR FAULT."}}

[LmL]

I wonder if anyone has taken a look at the Norse Mythology / Ragnarok & ASOIAF theory spelled out here:

http://gameofthronesandnorsemythology.blogspot.com/2013/05/ragnarok-song-of-ice-fire.html?m=1

Although it's too detailed to recap, the basic premise is that the main characters and broad strokes of ASOIAF are heavily based on Norse mythology and Ragnarok (final battle between Gods and Titans / Monsters) in particular. This would essentially pit the Children of the Forest against the kingdom of man as the final battle, with both Ice and Fire being agents of magic on the side of the COTF. The idea of Ice VERSUS Fire is a red herring, according to this theory, as they are supposed to make a "song," which implies harmony. I won't go any further, as the actual blog deserves a read (it's fantastic and obviously on to something), but if it's correct, the Others are actually a pawn of the COTF, acting through Bloodraven and now Bran as their champion Greenseer. One of the main questions raised was this: if the COTF helped the first men build the wall to keep out the Others, then why are they on the wrong side of the wall??

[Seneti]

One of the main questions raised was this: if the COTF helped the first men build the wall to keep out the Others, then why are they on the wrong side of the wall??

If we go with that theory, then maybe they didn't help build the wall to keep out the Others but men? I mean, their numbers were dwindling due to men cutting down their habitat, so to speak. Maybe they just needed a place to safely grow their ice zombie army, far away from all those pesky humans... :devil:

[Winnief]

Seriously. They're also of course weeding out everyone with bravery, character, loyalty, and compassion too, for vicious, cruel, duplicitous, wholly selfish types. Yeah, that'll be helpful during a long winter...

Definitely. I always entertain the idea of the crueler characters "winning" only to have to see their world crumble. I want to see the look of realization and sheer horror on their faces when their own brains tell them, ^{_{"THIS IS YOUR FAULT."}}

That would require a certain level of self-awareness, though, on their part. I doubt Cersei or the Frey's have it. Roose may be smart enough, and Tywin possibly as well. Varys is for sure...don't know about LF.

If we go with that theory, then maybe they didn't help build the wall to keep out the Others but men? I mean, their numbers were dwindling due to men cutting down their habitat, so to speak. Maybe they just needed a place to safely grow their ice zombie army, far away from all those pesky humans... :devil:

Hmmm...it may have actually been a form of protection for both parties; men wouldn't have to deal with the Others, but the Others could have habitat with the perfect climate for them to enjoy forever.