[BOOK SPOILERS] Watching the show if it overpasses the books [Part 2]

[Annara Snow]

Quentyn wasn't intended to be filler. But Quentyn didn't work. Quentyn was ineffective due much in part to the fact of when he was introduced in the story.

Most readers cared little about Quentyn because of how late he was introduced into the story. Also he was intentionally written as being a bit of a "boring" person. Quiet, unimposing, non-threatening and not much of an "action-man". He doesn't "do" much of anything until his final act which results in his death. I wouldn't quite consider Quentyn filler, because GRRM clearly indented to write this. However, I would say it is also one of the most ineffective written arcs in the books, as I don't think it provided the intended effect for the vast majority of the audience.

Yes, freeing the dragons could have been handled a lot better and didn't need another POV character introduced this late in the game to accomplish it. And if he felt strongly enough that it did require such, presenting the character as unassuming as he did with Quentyn is a poor way to draw the reader in.

On the contrary, from what I've seen, Quentyn is very loved by a portion of fans, for someone who was introduced so late and died so quickly - and they seem to love him exactly because of his personality, i.e. because they relate to him as a shy "nerdy" guy who suffered a bad fate. Some people even rant against Dany for not immediately dropping her impending marriage to Hizdahr and causing havoc in Meereen to marry Quentyn for his hypothetical army on the other side of the world, or for not being attracted to Quentyn, because it's completely unacceptable for a woman to not "return the affections" of a shy plain-looking dude who she's just met and who doesn't actually have any affections for her anyway but is there because of politics, dragons and his father's plans... because it ruins the romcom dream of "nerdy guy gets the popular hot girl", or something. :dunno:

[cade]

On the contrary, from what I've seen, Quentyn is very loved by a portion of fans, for someone who was introduced so late and died so quickly - and they seem to love him exactly because of his personality, i.e. because they relate to him as a shy "nerdy" guy who suffered a bad fate. Some people even rant against Dany for not immediately dropping her impending marriage to Hizdahr and causing havoc in Meereen to marry Quentyn for his hypothetical army on the other side of the world, or for not being attracted to Quentyn, because it's completely unacceptable for a woman to not "return the affections" of a shy plain-looking dude who she's just met and who doesn't actually have any affections for her anyway but is there because of politics, dragons and his father's plans... because it ruins the romcom dream of "nerdy guy gets the popular hot girl", or something. :dunno:

:cheers:

[wallofice]

The show has its merits, as much as I rail against it for certain character choices it makes, and I won't be able to stop myself from watching it once it overtakes the books. I'm pretty sure we'll be getting TWOW material for Sansa, Brienne and Stannis (as I'm confident we'll get the outcome to the Siege of Winterfell) next season.

And while the show's interpretation of my favorite characters might sometimes grate on me, I'd rather stay as close to the books as possible - even if it's only an outline - than to have them create their own ending. Because no matter what, the show's ending will be just as valid as the books', and more widespread at that. I don't want to deal with people arguing for years about how much more awful one ending was than another on top of all the arguing they'll already be doing about the other changes, both minor and major.

Finally, I actually loved Quentyn as a character, but I definitely agree his story could have been told in fewer chapters. A lot of things could've taken up fewer chapters, but there's nothing to be done about it now. I almost wish GRRM would just release more sample chapters to tide us over in the meantime. At the very least release the ones he's read at cons. I promise I'll still buy the book when it comes out!

That being said, it probably will be a relief to watch an episode without having the "THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN" gut reaction. I've never minded interesting additions to the story (I'm one of the few who loves the Missandei/Grey Worm romance, for example), but I have a hard time adjusting when something happens in the exact opposite way (such as Sansa revealing herself to the Lords Declarant). It'll be nice not to struggle internally while trying to enjoy a decent episode of television.

[jons nissa]

but I have a hard time adjusting when something happens in the exact opposite way (such as Sansa revealing herself to the Lords Declarant).

this may not be as opposite as you think depending on what's in twow. many speculate the controversy around sansa's upcoming chapters was the driving factor behind the sansa reveal and littlefinger alibi. but that's just speculation. in fact, i think that will be the biggest challenge when the show overtakes the books: what's grrm's creation and what's a d&d creation.

[wallofice]

this may not be as opposite as you think depending on what's in twow. many speculate the controversy around sansa's upcoming chapters was the driving factor behind the sansa reveal and littlefinger alibi. but that's just speculation. in fact, i think that will be the biggest challenge when the show overtakes the books: what's grrm's creation and what's a d&d creation.

Yeah, in the end, I decided I actually liked the change for Sansa's story line and whatever it may or may not mean for future seasons and books. It's just that in recent seasons, I'd have to rewatch episodes in order to be able to set aside my book rage and just watch the show for what it is.

I'm sure the uncharted territory will spark loads of controversy on what parts of the story belong to D&D and what parts belong to GRRM - and I'm sure people will even go so far as to say GRRM is taking cues from D&D if/when the last two books come out - but at least everyone will be in the same boat together.

[jons nissa]

and I'm sure people will even go so far as to say GRRM is taking cues from D&D if/when the last two books come out - but at least everyone will be in the same boat together.

yikes! i'd never think people would say that but i suppose you're right. however, i sincerely doubt that we'll all be in the same boat at that point. there will be even more arguing from those who have "quit the show" and those who haven't.

[sj4iy]

One question: if the show ends exactly like the book is slated to end, but long before the book does, and the audience absolutely hates it...do you think he'll change his ending at least somewhat?

[wallofice]

One question: if the show ends exactly like the book is slated to end, but long before the book does, and the audience absolutely hates it...do you think he'll change his ending at least somewhat?

I guess it depends on if it's the execution or pacing that the audience hates, or the actual ending itself. I feel like any other ending GRRM comes up with last minute end up worse than the planned one, so I hope he wouldn't. But then again, I don't know the first thing about his plans or about him as a person.

[jons nissa]

One question: if the show ends exactly like the book is slated to end, but long before the book does, and the audience absolutely hates it...do you think he'll change his ending at least somewhat?

that's an interesting question.i want to say no he won't but he's already mentioned by affected by the show's version of osha. i suppose it depends on how many say they hate it. i mean i think he'll want to say eff them. it's my book and i'll end it as i see fit but can you really ignore hundreds of thousands of comments?

i don't think it will be an issue though. i'm confident that he's come up with an ending that fits the story. d&d have already said it's satisfying and they will follow it, right? so i don't think this will be a problem.

[Colonel Green]

that's an interesting question.i want to say no he won't but he's already mentioned by affected by the show's version of osha.

He talked about Osha specifically as an exception to the general rule that his visions of the characters, etc. are all fixed in place by this point in time. Osha, by comparison, was presumably a character he hadn't given much thought to.

[jons nissa]

He talked about Osha specifically as an exception to the general rule that his visions of the characters, etc. are all fixed in place by this point in time. Osha, by comparison, was presumably a character he hadn't given much thought to.

it's happened once and it could happen again but i don't think grrm is looking to the show for inspiration. it's just that it's impossible to behave in a vacuum in a situation like this.

[yushkevitch]

Who are you all kidding, you know you're going to watch the show regardless.

You may say you won't now, but you know you will.

Come on, be honest. You know it ;)

[Frey Pies]

^ I know I will. :)

[Seneti]

One question: if the show ends exactly like the book is slated to end, but long before the book does, and the audience absolutely hates it...do you think he'll change his ending at least somewhat?

Interesting question, but I doubt that he would, if only because he has put so much work into it already. Also, speaking from an "amateur writer's" perspective here, the beginning and end of your story are usually the first and most vivid things that come to your mind. I can't imagine that it would be much different for successfully published authors. The beginning and the end are the pillars of your story. They are like the foundation and the roof of a house. If you build up the entire house in neo-gothic style and decide to put a Hundertwasser roof on top of it at the very end, just because people eep complaining about not liking the gothic roof, your house is going to look like a mess.

[Hodor's Dragon]

Interesting question, but I doubt that he would, if only because he has put so much work into it already. Also, speaking from an "amateur writer's" perspective here, the beginning and end of your story are usually the first and most vivid things that come to your mind. I can't imagine that it would be much different for successfully published authors. The beginning and the end are the pillars of your story. They are like the foundation and the roof of a house. If you build up the entire house in neo-gothic style and decide to put a Hundertwasser roof on top of it at the very end, just because people eep complaining about not liking the gothic roof, your house is going to look like a mess.

There aren't quite as many ways to plan a novel as there are novelists, but pretty close. I don't know what Martin's way is, but I do know he has done a great deal of TV screenwriting, where revising and rethinking your story line is pretty much a constant because the suits are always reacting to the Nielsens, the critics, etc.

So I wouldn't assume the ending is set in stone. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

[Gallivant]

There aren't quite as many ways to plan a novel as there are novelists, but pretty close. I don't know what Martin's way is, but I do know he has done a great deal of TV screenwriting, where revising and rethinking your story line is pretty much a constant because the suits are always reacting to the Nielsens, the critics, etc.

So I wouldn't assume the ending is set in stone. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

I agree. It is true that a writer usually knows their ending from a long way out (often from the start, but changes (perhaps not always wholescale, but certainly in gist and nuance, or regarding certain characters' arcs) are often made and plans accordingly adjusted - most particularly where something is in serial form.

I can't help but imagine that if the show's ending bombs that GRRM's editors and publishers will be in a flat spin trying to get him to 'revise' the ending. This might be the case if favourite characters die, for example. There could be backlash against the brand and a lack of enthusiasm to relive the ending all over again.

Now D&D say the ending is 'satisfying' so obviously GRRM's 'bittersweet' ending works best for the story (there damn well should be a helluva lot of 'bitter' in what is effectively a war story) - but if the show ends on either a whimper or a major cataclysmic event which wipes out all or some of the characters both viewers and readers have invested time in over so many years there will be huge pressure on GRRM to change mid-stream.

To be honest it wouldn't take much viewer discontent to tarnish things for the brand. Even if just a couple of favourite characters don't turn out as hoped there'll be Internet forums exploding with angst and grief, twitter ablaze with fury, emails being dispatched to GRRM and his publishers begging for change, offline media jumping in on the act.... everyone loves a good ole whinge-story.

From a marketing/money point of view it might even be better if the show claims a different ending to the books - maybe not 'substantially' so, but enough to create an illusion of wriggle room for GRRM. And then the media narrative will be about a 'compare and contrast' of the endings. Everyone will have to watch the show AND buy the books too. Economically it might make sense, and possibly even narratologically. After all, books and TV are such different media that characters and events can never be truly replicated faithfully from page to screen - and arguably, they shouldn't be either. An adaptation is simply that - an 'adaptation' - not a blow-by-blow transposition.

[JagLover]

Those calling for D&D to change GRRM intended ending need to think about the fact that not only will the show be certainly poorer as a result but there is a good chance that this may be the only way we are ever going to see the ending of ASOIAF other than in the form of released notes.

I am a relative optimist on WOW and think we may have it by Spring 2016. After that it gets a bit more problematic.

ADOS-2021?

Book 8 (almost certainly required-2026?

Does anyone really think that from where we are at the end of ADWD the end is in sight?

[protar]

Those calling for D&D to change GRRM intended ending need to think about the fact that not only will the show be certainly poorer as a result but there is a good chance that this may be the only way we are ever going to see the ending of ASOIAF other than in the form of released notes.

I am a relative optimist on WOW and think we may have it by Spring 2016. After that it gets a bit more problematic.

ADOS-2021?

Book 8 (almost certainly required-2026?

Does anyone really think that from where we are at the end of ADWD the end is in sight?

I think that if you look past the negativity from AFFC/ADWD and look at the rest of Martin's releases things start to look much more optimistic. This guy can get a book out in 2 years, he's done it before. He's much busier now so bump that up to 3 years. Seeing as he took a year out after releasing ADWD that puts him on track to release TWOW in 2015 and ADOS in 2018.

[sj4iy]

I think that if you look past the negativity from AFFC/ADWD and look at the rest of Martin's releases things start to look much more optimistic. This guy can get a book out in 2 years, he's done it before. He's much busier now so bump that up to 3 years. Seeing as he took a year out after releasing ADWD that puts him on track to release TWOW in 2015 and ADOS in 2018.

He was able to get them out when he already had a 5 year lead on them and he was also 15 years younger than he is now. Just because he was able to do it before doesn't mean that he can do it again.

[JagLover]

He was able to get them out when he already had a 5 year lead on them and he was also 15 years younger than he is now. Just because he was able to do it before doesn't mean that he can do it again.

Indeed

He is not a particularly fast writer and the sheer size of the books (both ASOS and ADWD were close to the whole 3 books of The LOR in size) means that even without distractions a number of years is required. That being said, I am still relatively optimistic about WOW and think Spring 2016 might be feasible.

After that though where is the time pressure?. He will have to face reality that one more book cannot finish it all and the TV show will have long since finished by the time ADOS comes out.