raegal_targaryen Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 if it turns out jons not a bastard that may happen but in the story so far he is a bastard born, and no cersei is not an actual lion nor does dany have dragon dna but blood of the dragon is what they say to people inside the targs that has the ability to control dragons and yes people refer to them self as lions wolves kraaken and dragons and etc doesnt make them what they call them self just a part of a family that has a banner :D and btw i had plenty to say if it turns out am right that he is a bastard because it can go both ways Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DivPArADox Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 My opinion is R+L=J is irrelevant, I think everyone is making it too complicated. The Kings Guard were on the losing side of the rebellion, it was over everybody with even a mild awareness of what was going on knew it when Kings Landing fell (most knew after the Trident). The best they could hope for is a small measure of revenge by killing Ned and his companions or at least die trying. Ned was trying to convince them they didn't need to die, they told him honor dictated otherwise, so they did. Pretty straightforward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 My opinion is R+L=J is irrelevant, I think everyone is making it too complicated. The Kings Guard were on the losing side of the rebellion, it was over everybody with even a mild awareness of what was going on knew it when Kings Landing fell (most knew after the Trident). The best they could hope for is a small measure of revenge by killing Ned and his companions or at least die trying. Ned was trying to convince them they didn't need to die, they told him honor dictated otherwise, so they did. Pretty straightforward. Because especially those three would had abandoned the person that should protect to take revenge. Right that make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lointain Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Because Rhaegar ordered them to not let anyone be near Lyanna, without the express authorisation of the Prince. And the KG obeyed wihout thinking twice: remember people, we are talking of a KG that for years, blindly, followed orders from a king capable of the most atrocious and cruel things. and because all the people that could give new orders to the remaining KG are dead/running away, they, like automatons, stick to the last orders of Rhaegar and tried to stop the younger brother of the mistress of Rhaegar to go near his sister. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 My opinion is R+L=J is irrelevant, I think everyone is making it too complicated. The Kings Guard were on the losing side of the rebellion, it was over everybody with even a mild awareness of what was going on knew it when Kings Landing fell (most knew after the Trident). The best they could hope for is a small measure of revenge by killing Ned and his companions or at least die trying. Ned was trying to convince them they didn't need to die, they told him honor dictated otherwise, so they did. Pretty straightforward. Because Rhaegar ordered them to not let anyone be near Lyanna, without the express authorisation of the Prince. And the KG obeyed wihout thinking twice: remember people, we are talking of a KG that for years, blindly, followed orders from a king capable of the most atrocious and cruel things. and because all the people that could give new orders to the remaining KG are dead/running away, they, like automatons, stick to the last orders of Rhaegar and tried to stop the younger brother of the mistress of Rhaegar to go near his sister. "We are Kingsguard. We swore a vow". I see neither revenge nor blind obedience as being the core of the vow that makes them Kingsguard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaegar I Targaryen Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 "We are Kingsguard. We swore a vow". I see neither revenge nor blind obedience as being the core of the vow that makes them Kingsguard. What about when the mad king was burning innocents and raping the queen? Is that not blind obedience to stand by and do nothing? Ser Hightower to Jaime, "You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HMR Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 On the whole ToJ fight, Howland Reed did not have to warg or do something special to save Ned from Dayne. It could be just that Ned was fighting Dayne and slowly losing and getting closer to death, and Howland, having defeated his own enemy, just stabbed Dayne in the back. Bit trivial, I know, I hope it was something more too :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 What about when the mad king was burning innocents and raping the queen? Is that not blind obedience to stand by and do nothing? And how does it differ from the standard feudal obedience?The Lord commands, the vassals are supposed to obey. The Frey men followed Walder' s scheme, the Bolton household don't give a shit to Ramsay's hobbies... everyone's underlings just do as they are told, except the rare occasions when their moral compass is stronger than their master's will (Davos). How does obedience make the Kingsguard any specific? Ser Hightower to Jaime, "You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him" Indeed. That's the core of the vow. Guard the king. If they are following revenge, or carrying out an order while the king is not guarded by any Kingsguard, they are breaking that very vow which makes them Kingsguard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 On the whole ToJ fight, Howland Reed did not have to warg or do something special to save Ned from Dayne. It could be just that Ned was fighting Dayne and slowly losing and getting closer to death, and Howland, having defeated his own enemy, just stabbed Dayne in the back. Bit trivial, I know, I hope it was something more too :( I'll cheerfully admit there's no evidence, but I've always had the happy thought in the back of my mind that Howland Reed shot him in the back, which is why Ned admits his role but never speaks of how he did it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petyr Patter Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 I'll cheerfully admit there's no evidence, but I've always had the happy thought in the back of my mind that Howland Reed shot him in the back, which is why Ned admits his role but never speaks of how he did it. That is certainly a possibility, but if one accepts that the Laughing Knight was Howland Reed inspired by the old gods with super fighting ability... I always loved the idea of Howland just stepping inbetween Eddard and Dayne and saying, "try me." At which point he whips Dayne in a sword fight... because, old gods! Hey, you have your vision, I have mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 That is certainly a possibility, but if one accepts that the Laughing Knight was Howland Reed inspired by the old gods with super fighting ability... I always loved the idea of Howland just stepping inbetween Eddard and Dayne and saying, "try me." At which point he whips Dayne in a sword fight... because, old gods! Hey, you have your vision, I have mine. Do we have any account, e.g. Nan's stories and the like, that the old gods ever intervened like that? Personally, I'm placing my bets with the net and spear, as it already has a basis in the story, the effect of immobiization of the opponent as well as of an unconventional weapon against a knight is stated in one of the Barristan chapters (the boy with the whip) and it requires no further explanations or mystical interventions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluecore Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 In direct response to the OP: The only way it makes sense is if you subscribe to the Lyanna+Rhaegar=Jon Snow theory. In that case, even though Lyanna is Ned's sister, the baby is still a Targaryen, and Robert would want it dead. Why is she in a pool of blood? Promise her what? The only logical explanation is child birth. Ned is Robert's best friend and helping him rebel. The Mad King has already been killed, as have Rhaegar's other two children. I can't recall how much of that the Kingsguard knew (what I do remember is that Ned told them all of that), but it was safe for them to assume that they came for the child and that no good would come of it for the child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raegal_targaryen Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 what really happened at the toj is a mystery still and what happened there will be revealed, later but right now everyone is overthinking everything about it. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mambru Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 And how does it differ from the standard feudal obedience?The Lord commands, the vassals are supposed to obey. The Frey men followed Walder' s scheme, the Bolton household don't give a shit to Ramsay's hobbies... everyone's underlings just do as they are told, except the rare occasions when their moral compass is stronger than their master's will (Davos). How does obedience make the Kingsguard any specific? When we saw Brienne vow fealty to Catelyn, Catelyn's formal acceptance of the vow included a promise on her part that in accepting Brienne's obedience she would in her turn never order Brienne to do something dishonorable. OTOH, the KG seemed to interpret their vows as meaning that they were exempt from the minimum obligations of decency to every person under the sun in obedience to the king's wishes. Which, ick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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