Lady Sharya Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 She joined FM for the purpose of one day getting revenge -- that is her ultimate goal and she focuses solely because of that drive. She is consumed by it, and her soft spot for justice in Westeros is well displayed in how she killed Dareon out of misplaced anger. So yeah, she is extremely one track minded.She didn't kill Dareon out misplaced anger either. She killed him because he was a NW deserter so that's what her father would have done. She was recomfirming her Stark identity despite her FM training to become 'no one.'And, her ultimate goal is to be with her 'pack', NOT to extract revenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mourneblade Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 She joined FM for the purpose of one day getting revenge -- that is her ultimate goal and she focuses solely because of that drive. She is consumed by it, and her soft spot for justice in Westeros is well displayed in how she killed Dareon out of misplaced anger. So yeah, she is extremely one track minded. Again, I have said before, Arya's mental turmoils are very internalized, which is where her and Carrie differ. Do hospitals have any relevance in Westeros? And Carrie does make the ultimate sacrifice for her country, getting Brody in to Iran and literally pushing him into the operation. Arya has had her personality profiled, she is no psychopath, nor is she mentally unstable. Also people forget that Arya is 10 year old girl, but with MAGIC POWERS! lol. She draws strength of will and a bit of a wild personality from her spirit bond with Nymeria. Nymeria also calls to her and protects her when she is at Harrenhal. Lol seriously though people overlook the influence of her wolf, or her magical connection to it. It IS her Plot Armor lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kephv Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 She didn't kill Dareon out misplaced anger either. She killed him because he was a NW deserter so that's what her father would have done. She was recomfirming her Stark identity despite her FM training to become 'no one.'And, her ultimate goal is to be with her 'pack', NOT to extract revenge. Bullshit. That's exactly why she killed him. Being a deserter was part of that -- although it certainly wasn't the main part -- but in the end it was cold blooded murder. By the way, her 'pack' doesn't exist. Unless you mean she wants to live with the wolves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mourneblade Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Another member did find him -- Sam. As for Northern Lords or Ladies, absolutely nothing, as long as they were in Braavos. Sam actually should have executed Dareon. It was Sam's duty. But conflict is not exactly in Sam's nature lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kephv Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Sam actually should have executed Dareon. It was Sam's duty. But conflict is not exactly in Sam's nature lol Only the LC or the Lord of Winterfell can execute deserters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 AFAIK, there are no such 10 year old girls in our world which is why she seems unrealistic. That doesn't make her any less fun character though.I'm not an expert on this but I know there is a enormous gender difference when it comes to juvenile homicide offenders IRL. No one truly knows why this is (there are many theories) but young girls very rarely kill by themselves; and even if they do, their victims are usually family members or children of the same or younger age. For a girl of Arya's age to commit murder such as Harrenhall guard killing for example is practically unheard of IRL.GRRM liked to compare her to child soldiers. The Tamil Tigers who I compared her to because they had 8 year old assassins were known for their use of girls. She's a girl in a war zone so she's not supposed to be compared to the girl next door. <snip>I get what you're saying. I'm not saying she's not in a sympathetic position. She very much had motive but that doesn't mean that she didn't do anything morally wrong. I don't think motive means not guilty. I never agreed with the Jamie/Bran defenses for example. Yes, Jamie had a reason but he's still guilty of the intent/attempt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mourneblade Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Only the LC or the Lord of Winterfell can execute deserters. Sam was in command, Daeron disobeyed AND deserted. Are you telling me that he would have to get on a ship or send an Intercontinental Raven to Jon or Roose Bolton before he could do anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kephv Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Sam was in command, Daeron disobeyed AND deserted. Are you telling me that he would have to get on a ship or send an Intercontinental Raven to Jon or Roose Bolton before he could do anything? No. Even then he wouldn't be able to do anything. Do you really think the NW has any jurisdiction in Braavos? He might have been ordered by the LC (if he received a raven) to use force to get him to come back somehow, but that's about all he could've done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mourneblade Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I get what you're saying. I'm not saying she's not in a sympathetic position. She very much had motive but that doesn't mean that she didn't do anything morally wrong. I don't think motive means not guilty. I never agreed with the Jamie/Bran defenses for example. Yes, Jamie had a reason but he's still guilty of the intent/attempt. I think you missed what I was saying...and it is gonna sound touched, but Ill try to show a better example. Would it be morally objectionable for a caged wolf who is surrounded by enemies to kill someone to escape? Because that is closer to what happened. Nymeria imposed her will on Arya, the same way Shaggydog did to Rickon. I just went back and re read that POV, and it is not mearly implied, its in your face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mourneblade Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 No. Even then he wouldn't be able to do anything. Do you really think the NW has any jurisdiction in Braavos? He might have been ordered by the LC (if he received a raven) to use force to get him to come back somehow, but that's about all he could've done. Seriously, you are totally making this up. Show me something in print that even remotely supports this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sharya Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 That still isn't self defense. He did not do anything to her. Just because someone has a motive that doesn't mean they are not guilty. Her reaction to it was also very cold. The rain will just wash the blood off and it doesn't matter.It isn't murder either. I'll refer you to Mourneblade's response. He explained a lot more of that scene than I can. I said she is someone who has to be stopped from killing people and I was talking about the guards. She also had to be disciplined on Dareon but she ignored the KM's lesson. She didn't care. She is also someone who has to be taught to let go of revenge. She still has not done this.I don't know what to tell you. I've been using your own words to disagree with. I can't be so obtuse to get your words wrong in every response.It isn't unreasonable that a girl of 12 years has to be taught to let go of her desire for revenge after watching her father beheaded, being at the scene when her mother, brother and thousands of her people are slaughtered at her Uncles wedding, and learning that her home is invaded and her other two brothers have been flayed, chared & hung up by a guy she lived with all her life. Are you really keeping these facts in mind when judging how she should think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kephv Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Seriously, you are totally making this up. Show me something in print that even remotely supports this. That the NW doesn't have jurisdiction in Braavos? I would think it would be obvious... but I guess not. Look at this way: Braavos is on a continent called Essos, which is entirely distinct from Westeros. While the 7 Kingdoms are ruled by the King (with the major houses given rule over their respective domains), Braavos is under the rule of the Sealord. It's highly unlikely that any NW member would've been able to get away with cold blooded murder with the defense that they were doing it for the Watch -- do they think they can do whatever they want in Braavos? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I think you missed what I was saying...and it is gonna sound touched, but Ill try to show a better example. Would it be morally objectionable for a caged wolf who is surrounded by enemies to kill someone to escape? Because that is closer to what happened. Nymeria imposed her will on Arya, the same way Shaggydog did to Rickon. I just went back and re read that POV, and it is not mearly implied, its in your face.Would I understand why the wolf was put down if she killed someone who had not abused her and knew nothing of her? Yes. That's the way it often goes. Arya planned on killing him though. It wasn't impulsive. It isn't murder either. I'll refer you to Mourneblade's response. He explained a lot more of that scene than I can.It's morally questionable. Maybe a lesser charge IRL. It would make no sense to have her friend's reaction there if it was no big deal. The blood on her hands was telling too. I don't know what to tell you. I've been using your own words to disagree with. I can't be so obtuse to get your words wrong in every response.It isn't unreasonable that a girl of 12 years has to be taught to let go of her desire for revenge after watching her father beheaded, being at the scene when her mother, brother and thousands of her people are slaughtered at her Uncles wedding, and learning that her home is invaded and her other two brothers have been flayed, chared & hung up by a guy she lived with all her life. Are you really keeping these facts in mind when judging how she should think?But no one is saying they don't understand why she is this way. The subject got brought upon because it was said that the FM wasn't to turn her into a remorseless killer. She already was a killer before she got to them. She already was desensitized to violence. & she had very little remorse before she got to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mourneblade Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 That the NW doesn't have jurisdiction in Braavos? I would think it would be obvious... but I guess not. Look at this way: Braavos is on a continent called Essos, which is entirely distinct from Westeros. While the 7 Kingdoms are ruled by the King (with the major houses given rule over their respective domains), Braavos is under the rule of the Sealord. It's highly unlikely that any NW member would've been able to get away with cold blooded murder with the defense that they were doing it for the Watch -- do they think they can do whatever they want in Braavos? Ok so it is your opinion that Arya as a Lady of Winterfell cannot sentence a deserter to die and execute them, and it is your opinion that Sam has no right as commander of Daeron acting under the orders of the Lord Commander, but has no authority over Daeron once they leave Westeros. Got it. Now I do not have printed proof, but in the Prologue of the TV show Royce makes it clear he will kill one of his men should he desert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mourneblade Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Would I understand why the wolf was put down if she killed someone who had not abused her and knew nothing of her? Yes. That's the way it often goes. Arya planned on killing him though. It wasn't impulsive. I am not saying that to those who witnessed it would not agree with exactly what you are saying....But as the reader we are given information that the witnesses had no access to. Also it is made clear the only reason she resorts to killing him was because she knew she could not trick him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I'd say that Arya didn't have the authority because she was not acting as the ruling lady of WF. I highly doubt Ned would be okay for example if she randomly killed a deserter. That's not for her to do. He never gave those lessons to the girls. I am not saying that to those who witnessed it would not agree with exactly what you are saying....But as the reader we are given information that the witnesses had no access to. Also it is made clear the only reason she resorts to killing him was because she knew she could not trick him.It's a kill that has some sympathy but it's not a good act. This could have been a good man who was just doing his job. He could have had a family. He happened to have a bad overlord. Or he could have been a bad person. Who knows? None of that mattered to Arya. All that mattered was that he was in the way to her freedom. He had to go so she planned to kill him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mourneblade Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I'd say that Arya didn't have the authority because she was not acting as the ruling lady of WF. I highly doubt Ned would be okay for example if she randomly killed a deserter. That's not for her to do. He never gave those lessons to the girls. Oh I believe that also, although it is possible lol, but the reason I made a point of this is because we have someone here representing their opinion as fact, and that can be annoying :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kephv Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Ok so it is your opinion that Arya as a Lady of Winterfell cannot sentence a deserter to die and execute them, and it is your opinion that Sam has no right as commander of Daeron acting under the orders of the Lord Commander has no authority over Daeron once they leave Westeros. Got it. Now I do not have printed proof, but in the Prologue of the TV show Royce makes it clear he will kill one of his men should he desert. You have no proof and will continue to argue despite common sense showing how ridiculous the notion of any one Westerosi King, Lord or whatever having any say in what goes on in Braavos? Got it. Also, Sam was never in command of anything -- they both went there as equal members of the Watch. This wasn't a scouting mission into Wildling territory; it was a journey meant to take Sam and Dareon a long way from the Watch for a long time. Also, the TV show has nothing to do with the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sharya Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I think you missed what I was saying...and it is gonna sound touched, but Ill try to show a better example. Would it be morally objectionable for a caged wolf who is surrounded by enemies to kill someone to escape? Because that is closer to what happened. Nymeria imposed her will on Arya, the same way Shaggydog did to Rickon. I just went back and re read that POV, and it is not mearly implied, its in your face.I don't even think you need to go with the suble dynamics of Nymeria's presence (although I find it thought provoking & not the least 'touched'). What would you do if you were held captive in a castle that was about to be overrun & ruled by a bunch of psychopathic, bloodthirsty, warriors? Run or Die? What are you gonna do about the guard at the gate? Kill him or stay & die? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mourneblade Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I don't even think you need to go with the suble dynamics of Nymeria's presence (although I find it thought provoking & not the least 'touched').What would you do if you were held captive in a castle that was about to be overrun & ruled by a bunch of psychopathic, bloodthirsty, warriors? Run or Die? What are you gonna do about the guard at the gate? Kill him or stay & die? Nym is right in its appearance for sure. It is morally questionable. but as simple as I can say it and sounding like a child... The wolf made her do it lol. I sound like a blind fanatical fanboy lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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