Sansa's Opening Move

[Jiriki]

You act as if these things are impossible to get.

There's no indication she will get them. And Alayne Stone has been learning court intrigue: that's where her character is headed. It seems like you want her to become Dany 2.0. But she is a different type of character, just as Bran is not Robb. Will Bran ever command an army of Winterfell-loyal troops? No. And neither will Sansa.

Sansa could easily get a veteran strategist on her side to do all the military strategy. All she would have to do is review all the plans presented to her and choose which one to use. No matter what, she'll be picking a strategically sound plan because an experienced strategist will most likely only come up with the best courses of action to present her with in the first place.

A lot of conjecture there.

You guys seem to have a very, very skewed idea of what it would take for Sansa to do anything besides sit and be pretty.

Sansa can do many more things than "sit and be pretty". She's been learning about court intrigue and keeping secrets. Nothing, absolutely nothing, related to the art of war.

OldGimletEye stated, "I could see her keeping about 8,000 or 7,000 troops in the Vale and then sending the rest of her forces into the Riverlands to deal with her family's enemies there. Her forces in the Riverlands could then pose a threat to the West, which Cersei would have to contend with."

This isn't Sansa. This is not her narrative. It never has been. She's not the "warrior princess" type of character. The direction in which her character is going is much more subtle than that.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

There is also logistics to consider. Winter has come. The high road is closed by snow. Any Vale army whould need a fleet to move. Who will provide it?

[Cas Stark]

Yeah, for the life of me I cannot see the BF going to Sansa with several military strategies for the Vale army and her being the decision maker, weighing which way the army goes....that would not only be insane on the BF's part, but on the author's as well.

All of her development is interior. She is still, despite the dislike of the word, a passive person, more likely to do what someone tells her, than not. How she would ever become capable of being the prime decision maker on what to do with the Vale armies is beyond my imagining.

Her story is about learning to use her strengths of perception, of courtesy, of being underestimated, eventually, we hope to her advantage, of ultimately turning the view the world has of her as a good girl who does what she is told....into a victory for herself and her family. This is not going to be by Sansa directing the Vale army. It will be by Sansa using some kind of LF type intrigue against probably LF...it will be Sansa using information in a way that gets power or finally frees her or gets her a marriage she wants or puts someone like the BF in position to lead the Vale army.

[OldGimletEye]

There's no indication she will get them. And Alayne Stone has been learning court intrigue: that's where her character is headed. It seems like you want her to become Dany 2.0. But she is a different type of character, just as Bran is not Robb. Will Bran ever command an army of Winterfell-loyal troops? No. And neither will Sansa.

A lot of conjecture there.

Sansa can do many more things than "sit and be pretty". She's been learning about court intrigue and keeping secrets. Nothing, absolutely nothing, related to the art of war.

OldGimletEye stated, "I could see her keeping about 8,000 or 7,000 troops in the Vale and then sending the rest of her forces into the Riverlands to deal with her family's enemies there. Her forces in the Riverlands could then pose a threat to the West, which Cersei would have to contend with."

This isn't Sansa. This is not her narrative. It never has been. She's not the "warrior princess" type of character. The direction in which her character is going is much more subtle than that.

It may be the case that Sansa's arc is just that she ends up happy eating lemoncakes and being Littlefinger's Cat replacement. Maybe that is what will happen. I am not certain where GRRM is going with her.

But, it could be the case, that Sansa does end up in some kind of political leadership role. Just because she ends up being the de facto ruler of the Vale does not mean she will be "Xena The Warrior Princess". I thought I had explained this at some length.. I mean do you have problem with the US President being considered the Commander of Chief of all US Forces, even if they often don't have military experience themselves?

Now when I wrote:

"I could see her keeping about 8,000 or 7,000 troops in the Vale and then sending the rest of her forces into the Riverlands to deal with her family's enemies there. Her forces in the Riverlands could then pose a threat to the West, which Cersei would have to contend with."

I never assumed that Sansa would just come up with all this on her own. I have always assumed that she would act often under the advice of some experienced military advisors.

Now, you state that this all "conjecture". Well of course it is. But, people conjecture about a lot of things on this forum. At any rate, just because something is conjecture does not mean it is impossible. It is completely possible that Sansa might be able to get some competent military advisors.

[RoamingRonin]

You guys seem to have a very, very skewed idea of what it would take for Sansa to do anything besides sit and be pretty.

Giving speeches to troops? No. Wearing ceremonial armor? Definitely not (is this even a thing that happens in ASOIAF or are you being influenced by Elizabeth: the Golden Age?)

Sansa is more likely to gather the women, children and the weak and comforting them as the men go off to fight. Remember when Cersei bailed during the the Blackwater battle and Sansa led everyone in a song and ordered help for Lancel? That's her role. That's about as far into war and battle as it's going to get for her. Anything else would be bizarre.

[Lady Howell]

There's no indication she will get them. And Alayne Stone has been learning court intrigue: that's where her character is headed. It seems like you want her to become Dany 2.0. But she is a different type of character, just as Bran is not Robb. Will Bran ever command an army of Winterfell-loyal troops? No. And neither will Sansa.

A lot of conjecture there.

Sansa can do many more things than "sit and be pretty". She's been learning about court intrigue and keeping secrets. Nothing, absolutely nothing, related to the art of war.

OldGimletEye stated, "I could see her keeping about 8,000 or 7,000 troops in the Vale and then sending the rest of her forces into the Riverlands to deal with her family's enemies there. Her forces in the Riverlands could then pose a threat to the West, which Cersei would have to contend with."

This isn't Sansa. This is not her narrative. It never has been. She's not the "warrior princess" type of character. The direction in which her character is going is much more subtle than that.

Yes, but just because she's learning court intrique doesn't mean she can't be a war-time leader. Plenty of leaders in history have known absolutely nothing about war itself, but have done a pretty damn good job of waging the wars and winning them.

And are you on again on the warrior-queen/princess thing? No one said she has to march her troops herself or anything like that. The warrior part has nothing to do with this. The point is, if she were to become a Lady/Queen of anything, she's going to have to deal with warfare sometime. Cersei has, Catelyn did. Ruling and maneuvering through the game of thrones doesn't just involve what happens in the court--you also need to know what happens outside the court and on the battlefields where your war is being waged.

You don't have to be a warrior-type character to wage a war. Sansa's entire arch seems to be heading towards her coming into power, but once she comes into power (however that might come to be) what the Hell do you think she's going to do afterwards with her newfound power, over both money, influence, and an army? Just sit there on her ass and tell/decipher lies and play spider master like Varys? No, she's going to have to make decisions regarding warfare, which is sure to happen if she resurfaces. Like, for instances, whether she's going to head North and help Jon, take back Winterfell and the North, or do something about Cersei in the south.

She certainly can't do any of that if she never makes a decision regarding commanding an army.

And you are drastically overrating Dany. Dany isn't a warrior-queen. She's not a warrior period; she's just a regular queen. You act like it's a big deal for any ruler to wage war or command forces, but virtually every ruler in history, male and female, combatant and non-combatant, has had to at one point decide what to do in matters such as rebellion or conquest or basic defense of their kingdom. And sure, a lot of them had to consult advisers, but Sansa can do that too, and Dany has done it plenty already. Dany's a wannbe conqueror who seems to have some luck with the whole taking over part of conquering, but is still learning administration and diplomacy. Let's face it, she sucks at it. For now. She has the time and opportunity to develop the skills she needs.

Sansa has the exact opposite thing going on. She is quickly learning the ways of politics and scheming politically in court and dealing with vassals and threats to your own plans. She, at this time, has no idea how battlefield strategy and waging war is like. But, like Dany, she can easily learn with a help of top notch advisors. It's not that hard.

Really, Sansa learning that certain aspect of ruling is practically mandatory if she's ever going to rule anything, whether it be Westeros as whole, just the North, just Winterfell, or the Vale.

In order to be a well-rounded ruler, she's going have to know how to work a war at least on a basic level such as choosing one of the options presented to her by advisers as well as she knows how to conduct herself in court and with foes in politics.

[Lady Howell]

Giving speeches to troops? No. Wearing ceremonial armor? Definitely not (is this even a thing that happens in ASOIAF or are you being influenced by Elizabeth: the Golden Age?)

Sansa is more likely to gather the women, children and the weak and comforting them as the men go off to fight. Remember when Cersei bailed during the the Blackwater battle and Sansa led everyone in a song and ordered help for Lancel? That's her role. That's about as far into war and battle as it's going to get for her. Anything else would be bizarre.

Really, this is what you contest about my entire argument?

Rallying speeches and wearing ceremonial armor isn't just a Queen Elizabeth thing. Other female monarchs have done it throughout the ages to motivate troops, especially in the absence of a King. Queen Catherine of Aragon donned armor while pregnant and gave a speech before a battle between the English and Scots is just one example. In that battle, the Scottish King was killed. Another is Maria Theresa who was very involved in the war of Austrian Succession and said herself that she would have ridden into battle with her troops if she hadn't been pregnant most of the time.

In the absence of a King, a Queen fulfilling this role wouldn't be odd at all in our world. I believe there's an in-universe example of a woman, a widow, from the Dunk & Egg books, who donned armor during the war to lead her own host, but at court was perfectly happy in her dresses. She never fought. She did it for morale reasons, to show her support of the war effort and her troops I believe.

It's just as okay for Sansa to do the whole comforting role as you pointed out, but there is nothing wrong with her filling a ceremonial role on the battlefield. It's not like she would fight. After a speech, she'd probably be escorted a safe distance away from the battleground. Or at least to the back.

It wouldn't be bizarre at all.

[Jiriki]

Sansa is more likely to gather the women, children and the weak and comforting them as the men go off to fight. Remember when Cersei bailed during the the Blackwater battle and Sansa led everyone in a song and ordered help for Lancel? That's her role. That's about as far into war and battle as it's going to get for her. Anything else would be bizarre.

Exactly. She can be a leader (and has exhibited this) without being the leader of a vast army. Some of the ideas in this thread (like "I could see her keeping about 8,000 or 7,000 troops in the Vale and then sending the rest of her forces into the Riverlands to deal with her family's enemies there. Her forces in the Riverlands could then pose a threat to the West, which Cersei would have to contend with.") sound more like "What I would do in Sansa's place" rather than "What would Sansa do?"

[OldGimletEye]

And are you on again on the warrior-queen/princess thing? No one said she has to march her troops herself or anything like that. The warrior part has nothing to do with this. The point is, if she were to become a Lady/Queen of anything, she's going to have to deal with warfare sometime. Cersei has, Catelyn did. Ruling and maneuvering through the game of thrones doesn't just involve what happens in the court--you also need to know what happens outside the court and on the battlefields where your war is being waged.

Yes. Neither FDR nor Lincoln were professional soldiers. But, apparently, to some it seems mind blowing that FDR might have sat down and had a conversation with George C. Marshall about the direction of the World War 2 or that Lincoln might have sat down with Grant and talked about the Civil War.

[Cas Stark]

Yes. Neither FDR nor Lincoln were professional soldiers. But, apparently, to some it seems mind blowing that FDR might have sat down and had a conversation with George C. Marshall about the direction of the World War 2 or that Lincoln might have sat down with Grant and talked about the Civil War.

They had more experience than sitting around sewing and eating lemon cakes though didn't they? Administrative experience, political experience. Sansa's experience is being held captive in KL, knowing nothing of what was going on around her, and now her big step up is she's running the household affairs art the Erie, comparing her to FDR and Lincoln is a stretch to say the least.

[Lady Howell]

Exactly. She can be a leader (and has exhibited this) without being the leader of a vast army. Some of the ideas in this thread (like "I could see her keeping about 8,000 or 7,000 troops in the Vale and then sending the rest of her forces into the Riverlands to deal with her family's enemies there. Her forces in the Riverlands could then pose a threat to the West, which Cersei would have to contend with.") sound more like "What I would do in Sansa's place" rather than "What would Sansa do?"

Being a leader, especially in this world, kind of implies having an army. If Sansa gains control of the Vale, she gets control of the army as well. What? Do you want her to ignore it's existence and usefulness completely?

Because she shouldn't. Not that I'm saying she becomes some sort of fighter on the battlefield. She just needs to hand down the damn orders. Invade the Riverlands, Head North, Attack whatever. It's that simple and doesn't require her to suddenly become OOC at all.

[Lady Howell]

They had more experience than sitting around sewing and eating lemon cakes though didn't they? Administrative experience, political experience. Sansa's experience is being held captive in KL, knowing nothing of what was going on around her, and now her big step up is she's running the household affairs art the Erie, comparing her to FDR and Lincoln is a stretch to say the least.

Her experience at court taught her more than you think if you weren't paying attention. She learned how to navigate herself and tell lies and manipulate others, admittedly on a basic level. With LF she's learning even more of that. Sansa has also always had this knack for noticing very tiny details, whether it be in a person's appearance or in their behavior. She's never known how to use that hyper-awareness to her advantage however until now. She's learning, and that's the point.

If she can learn all this, she can learn the basic skill of picking one of the plans your advisers presents you with.

[OldGimletEye]

They had more experience than sitting around sewing and eating lemon cakes though didn't they? Administrative experience, political experience. Sansa's experience is being held captive in KL, knowing nothing of what was going on around her, and now her big step up is she's running the household affairs art the Erie, comparing her to FDR and Lincoln is a stretch to say the least.

I am not saying she is FDR or Lincoln. Nice try though. In fact, I wouldn't compare any of these young teenage leaders we have seen to them. And I certainly wouldn't put a teenager in charge of an army or nation. But, in Westeros, it happens.

What I am saying is that, if she takes control of the Vale, and I am not certain that will happen, it doesn't imply she will have to become "Xena The Warrior Princess" or some military mastermind.

[RoamingRonin]

Sansa cannot "take control of the Eyrie". If she marries into the title, she will either be Harry the Heir's wife or Robert's wife. Neither marriage will grant her the ability to do much of anything in regards to the military.

Littlefinger, Harry the Heir or the Lords Declarant with be doing the commanding no matter what. Not Sansa.

Really, this is what you contest about my entire argument?

The whole premise is ridiculous to be honest. I don't care about what real female monarchs wore (my reference was to the Elizabeth movie, which was almost entirely fictional). We have no examples of ceremonial armor in the ASOIAF. The idea of Sansa donning some is laughable (IMHO) and belongs only in fan fiction and wishful thinking. There are major differences between the Red Widow and Sansa: Rohanne is more like a Sand Snake and is better compared to Arya than Sansa. Remember when Dunk first saw her on the practice fields? Her armor was nothing ceremonial.

I've said it before in this thread but Sansa's story has always been about court intrigue and behind the scenes matters.

[Jiriki]

Being a leader, especially in this world, kind of implies having an army. If Sansa gains control of the Vale, she gets control of the army as well. What? Do you want her to ignore it's existence and usefulness completely?

An army can be used for defence, not just offense.

Because she shouldn't. Not that I'm saying she becomes some sort of fighter on the battlefield. She just needs to hand down the damn orders. Invade the Riverlands, Head North, Attack whatever. It's that simple and doesn't require her to suddenly become OOC at all.

This, again, sounds like "What I would do in Sansa's place." rather than "What Sansa will do." And Sansa Stark invading anything is certainly out of character: she's never done it before, there are no hints she's considering it (and we have her POV), and she does not have the power to do so (and may never get it). That's... sort of the definition of 'out of character': something the character doesn't do/hasn't done/isn't considering/doesn't have the ability to do.

[Cas Stark]

Her experience at court taught her more than you think if you weren't paying attention. She learned how to navigate herself and tell lies and manipulate others, admittedly on a basic level. With LF she's learning even more of that. Sansa has also always had this knack for noticing very tiny details, whether it be in a person's appearance or in their behavior. She's never known how to use that hyper-awareness to her advantage however until now. She's learning, and that's the point.

If she can learn all this, she can learn the basic skill of picking one of the plans your advisers presents you with.

We will have to agree to disagree. Her narrative to me is about interior development, about turning the perceived weaknesses of politeness, court protocol and passiveness into strengths, about learning to work things from the inside, when you don't have access to an army only yourself. Her sitting in a war room making military decisions, I would find that totally absurd, it would be too much of a leap.

[Broken Fox]

Some people have watched Snow White and the Huntsman too many times.

I like the idea of Sansa rising to a position of power but I can't see her being involved in anything military.

[Lady Howell]

We will have to agree to disagree. Her narrative to me is about interior development, about turning the perceived weaknesses of politeness, court protocol and passiveness into strengths, about learning to work things from the inside, when you don't have access to an army only yourself. Her sitting in a war room making military decisions, I would find that totally absurd, it would be too much of a leap.

Agree to disagree, I suppose your right on that front. You interpret her arch one way, as being about the subtle intrigues of court (which I don't disagree with completely), while I think it's about her evolving from the Disney-princess/queen cliche that she seemed to have in mind for herself to a real ruler and not just, well, a Disney-princess/queen cliche.

[Lady Howell]

Some people have watched Snow White and the Huntsman too many times.

I like the idea of Sansa rising to a position of power but I can't see her being involved in anything military.

Dear god, do we have to explain again that no one--NO ONE--has said anything about her actually doing any fighting, picking up a sword at all, or do anything but the administrative and political things involved in warfare.

Is that all war is to you people? Just a bunch of swords and fires and blood and armor--no, it's not. If Robb Stark has taught us anything, it has as much to do with politics as battle strategy.

[OldGimletEye]

Dear god, do we have to explain again that no one--NO ONE--has said anything about her actually doing any fighting, picking up a sword at all, or do anything but the administrative and political things involved in warfare.

Is that all war is to you people? Just a bunch of swords and fires and blood and armor--no, it's not. If Robb Stark has taught us anything, it has as much to do with politics as battle strategy.

Yeah, again, I don't know where GRRM is going with Sansa. I hope I find out before 2040.

But, any how, if she does become some kind of ruler, then she will be involved in military decisions to some extent. That is the way Westeros is. Doesn't mean she will pick up a sword herself or be commanding armies personally.