Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Riurik Novgorod

Are the Others that evil?

46 posts in this topic

My quiestion is because GRRM has said many times that there are no absolute bad or good characters. They all have their agenda, background, etc.


My question is, the only agenda for the Others is to destroy humanity? Pure evil? It doesn't sound very GRRMish


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That is the biggest dilemma I have with the series. If no one is purely evil and GRRM has even hinted that includes the Others and it appears that their objective is to destroy humanity how could they not be evil? Could destroying humanity not be evil? What other agenda could they have short of destroying humanity? I don't think we know enough to answer these questions. Does anyone think we do?


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We know from the basic histories that the Children of the Forest were defeated in battle when the First Men came to Westeros.




We now know that the CotF still exist in secret north of the Wall.




SO, there could be a possibility that the CotF and the Others once existed with some kind of mutual peace, with the CotF living in the south, what is now Westeros, and the Others living north of where the Wall is now. THEN, the First Men came and conquered the CotF, which might have disrupted their peace with the Others, turning the Others against the First Men and later the Andals. From there, the Wall was built using some kind of magic to keep the Others at bay while people settled south of the Wall.



Assuming the Others have a single leader (aka. the Great Other), isn't it possible that the CotF would have at some point also had a single leader (ie. the Great Child of the Forest), who would've established the truce between the two races?



If so, then the First Men's defeat of the CotF woud've disturbed that peace treaty with the Others, who may now seek vengeance against the First Men. Of course, it's now thousands of years later, so the Others may not distinguish between the First Men and the Andals. Maybe they aren't evil, they just dislike the humans for (nearly) vanquishing the CotF... AND given the title of the series, may be forced to defend themselves against Daenerys' dragons.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We know from the basic histories that the Children of the Forest were defeated in battle when the First Men came to Westeros.

We now know that the CotF still exist in secret north of the Wall.

SO, there could be a possibility that the CotF and the Others once existed with some kind of mutual peace, with the CotF living in the south, what is now Westeros, and the Others living north of where the Wall is now. THEN, the First Men came and conquered the CotF, which might have disrupted their peace with the Others, turning the Others against the First Men and later the Andals. From there, the Wall was built using some kind of magic to keep the Others at bay while people settled south of the Wall.

Assuming the Others have a single leader (aka. the Great Other), isn't it possible that the CotF would have at some point also had a single leader (ie. the Great Child of the Forest), who would've established the truce between the two races?

If so, then the First Men's defeat of the CotF woud've disturbed that peace treaty with the Others, who may now seek vengeance against the First Men. Of course, it's now thousands of years later, so the Others may not distinguish between the First Men and the Andals. Maybe they aren't evil, they just dislike the humans for (nearly) vanquishing the CotF... AND given the title of the series, may be forced to defend themselves against Daenerys' dragons.

Good thoughts. Another possibility is that the COTF have always worked together with the Others and were not defeated, but rather reached some agreement with the Kings of Winter and now are fulfilling that agreement. Ever wonder why Thorrhen knelt so easily? Maybe he knew that the King that kneels may rise again? Maybe the Starks are in league with them too? Next time I see Benjen, I will ask him. :cheers:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I doubt they're completely evil. As I've said in other threads, they're a completely separate race who, for whatever reason, likely have the perception that man is pure evil in the way that many humans believe the Others are evil.



Their communication with Crasters shows us that they're both capable of communicating with humans, and that they don't simply annihilate everything they see on sight, so there's definitely more to them than simply pure evil.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mmmh... but let's hope the Great Other is not a Sauronish character!

I believe I read somewhere that GRRM has already cited Sauron as an example of what the Great Other is not. I also believe we have already met the Great Other in the Story but not identified as such.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think we need to let go of the perception that the Others have a single leader called "the Great Other." Only Melisandre mentions him, and then only as a sort of anti-R'hllor, being the god of death, ice, and darkness (supposedly).



But I think the Others are an offshoot race of the COTF who split off because they disagreed with the Pact, and slowly gained power until they decided to sweep humanity from Westeros in the Long Night. So they are not 'evil', simply reclaiming their homeland.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think we need to let go of the perception that the Others have a single leader called "the Great Other." Only Melisandre mentions him, and then only as a sort of anti-R'hllor, being the god of death, ice, and darkness (supposedly).

But I think the Others are an offshoot race of the COTF who split off because they disagreed with the Pact, and slowly gained power until they decided to sweep humanity from Westeros in the Long Night. So they are not 'evil', simply reclaiming their homeland.

:agree: I think this scenario the most likely based on what we know to date. The alternative that the Others are still in league with the COTF and both are bent on ending humanity is too much of a downer for me. :frown5:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But the descriptions of the Others and the COTF differ too mucho to be an offshoot from the same race!


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not so sure of this 'pact' between the COTf and the others. Mainly due to the explination of the entrance to the cave where bran, hodor etc entered (dont know how to do the spoiler thing)


Sellsword, the god of death i thought was the faceless god, which Arya is involved with. Im waiting for a bit more of an 'impact' from the Seven. We have had alot of information regarding Rhollor, CoTF/old gods, Others, Nameless/faceless god and they have all shown their powers. The Seven have just been named and talked about. but this may be off topic.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But the descriptions of the Others and the COTF differ too mucho to be an offshoot from the same race!

I don't think they are the same race but one of the other races that existed North of the Wall. The Books say someplace that when the Wall went up the wildings, giants, and other older races were sealed off from the South. The Others are one of those older races who may or may not be in league with CoTF. Some say Yes, some say No. I think there is evidence of both but not enough to make a determination.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well they can't be completely evil, since they reached an agreement with Craster and honored it for years without any breaches.



If GRRM is interested in developing the story of the Others, it'd be interesting to learn how any people that mass an army to wipe out the living can be construed as anything but evil.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That is the biggest dilemma I have with the series. If no one is purely evil and GRRM has even hinted that includes the Others and it appears that their objective is to destroy humanity how could they not be evil? Could destroying humanity not be evil? What other agenda could they have short of destroying humanity? I don't think we know enough to answer these questions. Does anyone think we do?

Saving their own kind? From their POV, it's not evil.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well they can't be completely evil, since they reached an agreement with Craster and honored it for years without any breaches.

If GRRM is interested in developing the story of the Others, it'd be interesting to learn how any people that mass an army to wipe out the living can be construed as anything but evil.

So all humans are evil, because in this series they killed the magical creatures.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

there are no absolute bad or good characters?

how would you describe ramsay? o.o

First off, I agree completely. :agree:

My quiestion is because GRRM has said many times that there are no absolute bad or good characters. They all have their agenda, background, etc.

My question is, the only agenda for the Others is to destroy humanity? Pure evil? It doesn't sound very GRRMish

Secondly, I'm starting to think more and more that the Others might actually be the "good guys" in some sense. You're probably thinking, "You're a moron," right about now, but read on...

There seems to be a recurring theme of laws of nature vs. Laws of man. There are a million references to the men of Westeros constantly fighting and destroying one another. The old gods of the north are rooted in nature, the trees, etc, they are able to warg into animals - again, one with nature - I believe the others are fighting against the destruction of natural things (like themselves and CotF) against the "unnatural" humans. That is why Bran is on their side - I also believe Cold Hands is a Stark (though not BenJen). Also, given where we left off with Jon, I believe he is tricky, because I think his heritage (he's got both ice and fire in him) will be what eventually, somehow brings a peace.

I had this all planned out in my head, but now I'm rambling, so I will end with this. Fire consumes (like the humans) and Ice preserves. I believe the others are trying to preserve the natural order of things, and in order to do so, they must wipe out this unnatural race of men which consume everything they come in contact with. What better way to fight these creatures than to use the dead - the byproduct of their consumption?

Okay, rant complete.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If no one is purely evil and GRRM has even hinted that includes the Others and it appears that their objective is to destroy humanity how could they not be evil?

For instance because they are above any moral systems. They are force of nature, heralds of Great Other, they are COLD.

Like Dragons. Can we say whether Drogon is evil or good. No we can't. He's above it.

Could destroying humanity not be evil?

Could destroying humanity be evil?

I also believe we have already met the Great Other in the Story but not identified as such.

You means, we met him as a human being?

But I think the Others are an offshoot race of the COTF who split off because they disagreed with the Pact

Really? What similarities you see between them? They're like opposites of CoTF. Like Winter Court and Summer Court.

Sellsword, the god of death i thought was the faceless god, which Arya is involved with. Im waiting for a bit more of an 'impact' from the Seven. We have had alot of information regarding Rhollor, CoTF/old gods, Others, Nameless/faceless god and they have all shown their powers. The Seven have just been named and talked about. but this may be off topic.

There are two chances. One - there are no Seven, so they will have no impact. Second - Seven are true God and Davos is their Prophet.

how would you describe ramsay? o.o

He like dogs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites