Balon was a joke!

[Mithras]

The Ironborn are all joke. Some of them are funny though.

[RumHam]

No surprise there we all know he was a joke. The moment i read about him sending tywin a letter for an alliance it was just confirmed to me that this man is a complete idiot. All that crap about taking his throne and paying the iron price,when he was even more sacred of tywin than he may have been of robert and ned.

In Balon's defense he wanted independence, not isolation. He knew eventually when the War of the Five Kings was winding down whoever held the Iron Throne (most likely Tywin) would turn their attention to him. If for no other reason then that if you let one region secede it sets a precedent. Balon was smart enough to realize the Iron Islands couldn't stand alone and needed an alliance with someone. His only hope of Tywin recognizing the Iron Islands as an independent nation was to strike an agreement while Tywin still needed his help to fight other battles. Unfortunately for Balon Tywin (via Littlefinger) allied himself with The Reach instead.

[Jairion Lannister]

Yeah he was a major hypocrite. I expect he was incredibly bitter at the fact he was the one who rebelled and failed, and that Theon's departure was because of him. Ironically, Theon was rather capable at the time and made a decent warrior, but wasn't as brutal as the Ironborn are supposed to be. His legacy was probably helped by his death in a way if you believe the Euron theories. He died while in rebellion at the hand of a kinslayer instead of an enemy, and didn't have to face another defeat.

He's more of a victim of culture in that had he not been brought up with the warped views of the Ironborn, he'd maybe be a decent guy. His favouring of Asha showed that there was definitely some good to him, even if not a lot.

[PrimeRhaegar]

In Balon's defense he wanted independence, not isolation. He knew eventually when the War of the Five Kings was winding down whoever held the Iron Throne (most likely Tywin) would turn their attention to him. If for no other reason then that if you let one region secede it sets a precedent. Balon was smart enough to realize the Iron Islands couldn't stand alone and needed an alliance with someone. His only hope of Tywin recognizing the Iron Islands as an independent nation was to strike an agreement while Tywin still needed his help to fight other battles. Unfortunately for Balon Tywin (via Littlefinger) allied himself with The Reach instead.

i get that but whats the sense in claiming he will take his crown instead of doing that in the first place. The man just seemed like a clown.

[RumHam]

i get that but whats the sense in claiming he will take his crown instead of doing that in the first place. The man just seemed like a clown.

Well for Balon the distinction between being given a crown and taking it was very important. Robb specifically used the word "give," which even Theon realizes was a mistake:

His father read the letter again. “The pup says nothing about a reward. Only that you speak for him, and I am to listen, and give him my sails and swords, and in return he will give me a crown.” His flinty eyes lifted to meet his son’s. “He will give me a crown,” he repeated, his voice growing sharp.

“A poor choice of words, what is meant is-”

“What is meant is what is said. The boy will give me a crown. And what is given can be taken away.” Lord Balon tossed the letter onto the brazier...

Declaring your independence and then making alliances is different than being offered a crown on a condition of military support. It's also worth noting that Robb's authority to crown Balon as King of the Iron Islands is shakey at best. He's King of The North and Riverlands, what claim does he have to the Iron Islands? The Iron Throne would never recognize their independence because of an agreement Balon made with Robb.

[Salinda]

The Balon that we meet through Theon is angry bitter pathetic old man. He hates Theon because he is a reminder of his own failure since it was his defeat and his disgrace that his son and heir was taken from him and raised by his enemy. Just look at his master plan....he waits until the men resoponsible for his defeat are dead and then waits for the right time and invades the North with his whole force against a lightly held wooden castle in the middle of nowhere and a ruin. Thats it....it was Theons later action that brought about the fall of winterfell and the occupation of Torrhens square. This was no more then a pathetic f*** you to Ned from a bitter vengeful spiteful old coward.

The ironborn are so much better off and stronger without him and look how much they have already accomplished more then Balon did and thats without use of the Iron Fleet.

He actually oversaw the seizure of Moat Cailin, a vital point which dubbed Robb as the "King who Lost the North"

And Aeron certainly doesn't think they are better off without him, neither does Victarion. They think he brought them something they could have never dreamed of, and simply had ambitions too big to be fulfilled. I don't think he's a complete joke. Besides, he's murdered before he got to do much so it isn't really fair to judge him so harshly

[Wmarshal]

I just read the Theon Asha chapter and it made no sense. How do go to war with someone and not attempt to hold the most mager strong hold? If you don't force the northmen into complete submission they would just attack the shores later and gut you later just like they did the pirates.

[Salinda]

Robb sucked more.

This is objectively true if we see the results of their respective reigns...

[sleath56]

It seemed that Balon only really wanted to declared war to spite the Starks for keeping his son as their ward and not really for any dream of 'independence', which were secondary to this revenge.

The IB like Victarion and Asha probably never saw this part of Balon through with their surprising progress in capturing the Northern coast; which to them, was better than than the results of the last rebellion.

The logical point for him would be to sack Lannisport, which was completely undefended after Ashemark and Robb's later skirmishes in the Golden Tooth.

[Salinda]

It seemed that Balon only really wanted to declared war to spite the Starks for keeping his son as their ward and not really for any dream of 'independence', which were secondary to this revenge.

The IB like Victarion and Asha probably never saw this part of Balon through with their surprising progress in capturing the Northern coast; which to them, was better than than the results of the last rebellion.

The logical point for him would be to sack Lannisport, which was completely undefended after Ashemark and Robb's later skirmishes in the Golden Tooth.

I think he valued independence over his revenge, as he rebelled the first time for that same reason before there was anything to avenge. Although revenge was a part of it

And I don't think sacking Lannisport and gaining the ire of the most ruthless megalomaniac in Westeros is a good idea. And it wasn't undefended, but the IB could have never held it if they had taken it. It just isn't worth the risk. It was better to attack an undefended region led by an inexperienced leader than to do that, not even adding in the fact that he's a Stark which makes it all the more appealing for him

[joluoto2]

This... i was scratching my head at Asha's taunting. Theon took the capital. How is that not a win for every IB ever?

Theon took the capital, yay, good. Theon chose to stay and hold a place fat from the sea and any boats, not good for an IB. He should have pillaged Winterfel and put it to the torch and the pirates would have been okay with it. The IB's strength is their ships which gives them mobility. Krakens do not fare well on land.

[Wmarshal]

Theon took the capital, yay, good. Theon chose to stay and hold a place fat from the sea and any boats, not good for an IB. He should have pillaged Winterfel and put it to the torch and the pirates would have been okay with it. The IB's strength is their ships which gives them mobility. Krakens do not fare well on land.

If you don't take the whole north the remaining northmen will fight you to the end there is a reason the starks ruled the north alone for thousands, they never let outsides hold land outside their command, the only way to beat them is to force them into complete submission.

[Chaircat Meow]

It seemed that Balon only really wanted to declared war to spite the Starks for keeping his son as their ward and not really for any dream of 'independence', which were secondary to this revenge.

Where do you get this impression from?

I think it is pretty clear Balon's desire for revenge wasn't correlated to his planned conquests. Why would he hold a grudge against Ned, and not against Robert's son, for instance? People mistakenly believe Balon's statements to Theon about Ned constitute proof Balon hated Ned and the Starks more than anyone else but given the context in which those comments were made this is unlikely. Balon was just angry his son appeared to be siding with the Starks, when he should have considered them, and everyone who fought against his father, enemies. He decided to invade the north, as opposed to the west, for strategic reasons, whether you agree with those reasons or not.

[Frey Pie]

It seemed that Balon only really wanted to declared war to spite the Starks for keeping his son as their ward and not really for any dream of 'independence', which were secondary to this revenge.

The IB like Victarion and Asha probably never saw this part of Balon through with their surprising progress in capturing the Northern coast; which to them, was better than than the results of the last rebellion.

The logical point for him would be to sack Lannisport, which was completely undefended after Ashemark and Robb's later skirmishes in the Golden Tooth.

Personally this thread is why I believe Balon attacked the North, contrary to strategic sense http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/92907-my-house-owes-yours-a-great-debt/

However, I don't think Lannisport at this time was his best option, just a step above the one he actually took. He should have sat on his hands IMHO and let the realm devour itself. Raid here and there but nothing too major

[PrimeRhaegar]

Well for Balon the distinction between being given a crown and taking it was very important. Robb specifically used the word "give," which even Theon realizes was a mistake:

Declaring your independence and then making alliances is different than being offered a crown on a condition of military support. It's also worth noting that Robb's authority to crown Balon as King of the Iron Islands is shakey at best. He's King of The North and Riverlands, what claim does he have to the Iron Islands? The Iron Throne would never recognize their independence because of an agreement Balon made with Robb.

showed what an idiot robb was too then.

[sleath56]

Hear Me Meow: His strategic reasons were pretty unsound, then. Attacking the north was a folly, as it had open land terrain, unsuited for IB soldiers. The rivers were also freezing as Winter is Coming, and it would be impossible for the IB to establish supply lines.

The Westerlands is one of the most wealthiest lands in comparison. Clearly, Balon didn't want to conquer so much as he wanted to intimidate the crown into surrendering for a independence treaty, if we go by what you say in that he wanted independence. The Westerlands was also almost completely undefended and part of the crown with high hills and wide coastlines allowing for a defensible beachhead and IB soldiers to fight in their ideal terrain.

The Crown was losing the war at the time the IB attacked, and so there would have been no reprecussion if the IB took Lannisport via harbour (as Redwyne fleet was not under Crown control at the time). Casterly Rock could then be starved out.

The Crown would have offered them independence pretty easily.

They would also gain 'payback' over their defeat in Lannisport Bay.

No matter how you put it, the attack on the North was a strategic blunder in all forms. The only real successes was by Theon's action of attacking Winterfell and the following destabilization.

Frey Pie: So he attacked them because the Starks saved the Iron Islands? ... Uhh....

[Northernmonkey]

It's also worth noting that Robb's authority to crown Balon as King of the Iron Islands is shakey at best. He's King of The North and Riverlands, what claim does he have to the Iron Islands? The Iron Throne would never recognize their independence because of an agreement Balon made with Robb.

This is a very good point, and it's why I think Balon would have been foolish to ally with Robb. If the war reached the point where the Iron Throne was forced to give the North independence, does anyone think that Robb would say to them "we want independence for the Iron Islands as well"? In fact, if the North did become independent, the Iron Throne would be even more determined to hang on to the Iron Islands.

[Frey Pie]

showed what an idiot robb was too then.

Ya the letter was terribly worded. Although when you consider he had Theon as his only intelligence on the IB, you can see how he made so many errors regarding them

Hear Me Meow: His strategic reasons were pretty unsound, then. Attacking the north was a folly, as it had open land terrain, unsuited for IB soldiers. The rivers were also freezing as Winter is Coming, and it would be impossible for the IB to establish supply lines.

The Westerlands is one of the most wealthiest lands in comparison. Clearly, Balon didn't want to conquer so much as he wanted to intimidate the crown into surrendering for a independence treaty, if we go by what you say in that he wanted independence. The Westerlands was also almost completely undefended and part of the crown with high hills and wide coastlines allowing for a defensible beachhead and IB soldiers to fight in their ideal terrain.

The Crown was losing the war at the time the IB attacked, and so there would have been no reprecussion if the IB took Lannisport via harbour (as Redwyne fleet was not under Crown control at the time). Casterly Rock could then be starved out.

The Crown would have offered them independence pretty easily.

They would also gain 'payback' over their defeat in Lannisport Bay.

No matter how you put it, the attack on the North was a strategic blunder in all forms. The only real successes was by Theon's action of attacking Winterfell and the following destabilization.

The attack on the North was actually fairly sound but was never going to be permanent. Balon doesn't have the men or resources to take it properly, never mind keep it. The biggest problem I see is that Balon seems to be the overall commander yet he is a couple of hundred miles away at all times, far too far away to send reinforcements, coherent commands etc.

His goal was independence, therefore he needed to bring down the Seven Kingdoms as we know it. His strategy runs contrary to his goal, therefore is counter productive

Its worth noting though that Balon (really Vic and Euron) actually won their finest battle in Lannisport bay when they fired the Lannister fleet at anchor

[Ser Not Appearing]

The Ironborn represent the one culture in the series that I consider a truly poorly done charicature... Balon being a fairly good example of such. No other culture... even the Dothraki... really compares to the way in which the Ironborn ruin my ability to suspend disbelief.

Maybe it is my failing but as far as I see it, the equation goes like this:

Define yourself by your ability to take and to dominate + You think those land people are weak + They beat your ass and killed your sons, taking another one hostage = You are a pathetic leader and a failure and a wuss and any bluster you later exhibit is hollow

[sleath56]

Frey Pie: I don't understand what he wanted strategically from the North. It was not part of the Crown, and could not give him the independence he presumably desired. To get independence, you don't need to conquer the whole liege country and only defeat them badly enough that they accept your terms.

The Westerlands was, at the time, a vital part of the Crown, and the IB was fighting to be free of the Crown. So it boggles the mind that attacking the North (which had also declared independence) could be a sane strategic move.

As you said, keeping the North was impossible, but holding the Westerland possessions would have been entirely possible. They could've even annexed part of the Westerlands if they played their moves right.

Therefore, Balon was a incompetent commander.

Also: Oh, so they won at Lannisport? Haha, thanks. I must've confused it with something else.