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Ragnarok: this theory puts all other theories to shame


Daendrew

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And the only other character who could fit the monomyth without forcing the comparison is Jon, who is called a giant in Ragnarock theory and very un-heroic.

GRRM has said time and time again that who the good guys and who the bad guys are is a big question. UnJon may become the antihero of sorts after making us love him over 6,000 pages. That's a shocker. I dunno. Only GRRM knows.

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As this theory and other theories suggest that Jon will be an anti-hero of sorts and be UnJon or the night king. Jon and his future seems to have a human/man connection. Melisandre's seeing him as man, then wolf, then man again and Maester Aemon telling Jon to the boy be killed and the man be born suggest Jon's future as a rebirth and becoming more of a man. Not some undead agent of evil. This again is why it is hard to completely think this is all based off the Norse mythology as I have said before the author reaches for things to fit it without thinking on most of the stuff that has been written previously on characters and situations.


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  • 3 weeks later...

As this theory and other theories suggest that Jon will be an anti-hero of sorts and be UnJon or the night king. Jon and his future seems to have a human/man connection. Melisandre's seeing him as man, then wolf, then man again and Maester Aemon telling Jon to the boy be killed and the man be born suggest Jon's future as a rebirth and becoming more of a man. Not some undead agent of evil. This again is why it is hard to completely think this is all based off the Norse mythology as I have said before the author reaches for things to fit it without thinking on most of the stuff that has been written previously on characters and situations.

No one expects the Spanish Inquesition.

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The Norse connection has been mentioned many times. There are many clear influences there, but the story already deviates from so many key points I don't see how we can get meaningful predictions out of it.

How so?

People are so caught up debating about the R + L = J theory that they pretty much missed all the major key plot points which is what Grrm is going for I presume. He's great at misleading his readers with false protaganists and red herrings. I bet before SOS came out, nobody would have believed that Robb and Catelyn would be slaughtered or that Jaime would be redeemed.

Tommen being TPTWP is brilliant and I'm putting my bets on it being him. The Starks invading Westeros is already starting with undead Cat.

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Tommen being TPTWP is brilliant and I'm putting my bets on it being him. The Starks invading Westeros is already starting with undead Cat.

Will he outlaw beets after defeating the Great Other though? That's the key question.

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Close, only No. There is Ragnarok which is Cotf= odin Snarks= Loki, who swinddle Ice giants= dragons from the grumpkins.



3 blood comet "hearts" landed @



Land of always winter- Snarks


Valyrian Peninsula- grumpkins


Land bridge Esso/westero- Cotf



leading up to the last battle of Ragnarok, which is mirriorred by Grrm main characters.



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i love and believe this theory but I think he's off on a couple of key points. Egber isn't Mance its Aegon V (Egg from Dunk and Egg). When he saw the coming of Ragnarok it led him to do something foolish causing the tragedy of summerhall. Tommen will die unfortunately and the PTWP is probably the same as AA (Jamie). He certainly cant be anything other than the one-handed god of war.


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No, no it isn't. Ragnarok is a combination of the plural genitive form of regin, which means "ruler" and rökr meaning "bane". So, literally, it means "bane of the ruling powers", or "bane of the gods", if you prefer. There's nothing about song, fire or ice in there.

he's not saying "Ragnarok" literally means a song of ice and fire; he's saying it literally is a song of ice and fire.

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Maybe it has been said before, but I don't think GRRM as a writer works like this.


Imagine what he would have to do: he would have to sit down before starting to write, taking a long look at the ragnarok and making a plan how to fit every tiny bit of relevant ragnarok into his retelling of it. He would have to work out every parallel character and all their actions would have to fit the ragnarok pattern.


It sounds like a painstakingly meticulous, strenuous process and not like the way GRRM writes, judging from his books. He has an exuberant imagination, coming up with one fascinating revelation after another, from dragon eggs to the White Walkers to the wall to all the families and their messed-up ways. This is an imagination that is too big for just one source of inspiration - we know that the Red Wedding has its precedent in Scottish history, child hostages like Theon were taken by the Romans, we have the Vikings, the War of the Roses, and so on. This is not a writer, in my opinion, who would write a series of 7 or 8 books just to retell ONE story in allegorical form.


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Maybe it has been said before, but I don't think GRRM as a writer works like this.

Imagine what he would have to do: he would have to sit down before starting to write, taking a long look at the ragnarok and making a plan how to fit every tiny bit of relevant ragnarok into his retelling of it. He would have to work out every parallel character and all their actions would have to fit the ragnarok pattern.

It sounds like a painstakingly meticulous, strenuous process and not like the way GRRM writes, judging from his books. He has an exuberant imagination, coming up with one fascinating revelation after another, from dragon eggs to the White Walkers to the wall to all the families and their messed-up ways. This is an imagination that is too big for just one source of inspiration - we know that the Red Wedding has its precedent in Scottish history, child hostages like Theon were taken by the Romans, we have the Vikings, the War of the Roses, and so on. This is not a writer, in my opinion, who would write a series of 7 or 8 books just to retell ONE story in allegorical form.

Yes, this is just why it takes him 5 or 6 years to finish one book. Because he doesn't work meticulously or isn't capable of weaving references throughout the stories.

It was obvious from the first book that there were going to be elements of Ragnarok in the story (too many to mention, really), and the series title is a dead giveaway. The first mention of unusually long winters should have had people screaming "Fimbulwinter!" in their brains. It's all there. While I don't think the theory as it's written gets everything right and sometimes tries to fit a round peg into a square hole, IMO it's more or less correct.

And if it is, a lot of people are going to be very, very unhappy with the results.

Just my two cents.

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LOL! I noticed that one too.

Unlike many crackpot theories on these forums, I actually really like this one, being a fan of mythology. I think some parts are very well thought out and the parallels drawn work.

Nevertheless, I highly doubt it's that simple. Martin would not just base the whole saga on something. Yes, he was inspired and influenced by many mythological and historical personas and events, but to simply take a story and put different skins on it, no, I'm not buying.

I suggest you read the other blog entries, if you have not already. I really like his idea of Bloodraven working with the Children and Others to bring down man kind and the whole "all men must die/serve" having a hidden connection to the children, that was probably my favourite part. Again, I'm not buying all of it, but there may well be some truth there.

Pretty much agree on this blog, and my take on GRRM is that he mixes and matches a lot of different influences. It also kind of fits that Tolkien himself was influenced a lot by Norse mythology.

I have to give this guy credit for one of my favorite theories on unGregor/Robert Strong He will go rogue and be warged by Chuck Norris Bloodraven or Bran and go on a rampage at the Twins or Riverrun. That may or may not happen, but at least it took my mind off of obsessing about Cleganebowl. :hat:

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And if it is, a lot of people are going to be very, very unhappy with the results.

Just my two cents.

Indeed.

Almost everybody will be dead.

Funnily enough, before I came across this thread today I speculated on a suitable ending of ASOIAF- the whole world of Westeros ending in a Wagnerian apocalypse of ice and fire because it is such a massively messed-up place sort of seemed fitting. Ragnaroooooooooookkkkkk! :-)

(Incidentally, has anybody quoted Robert Frost yet?

Fire and Ice

By Robert Frost

Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I’ve tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.)
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certainly he uses many sources outside of norse mythology as inspiration and many characters have more than one parallel. southern characters in particular have many parelels in greek and roman history and myth but the primary arch has to do with a nation descending into apocalypse.



I doubt that the whole story is going to end with meera and hodor climbing out of a tree left with the task of repopulating the earth, but most of the main characters will not survive. for those still hoping jon and dany will fall in love, marry, and sweep away the others with dragonfire this ending will be more bitter than sweet. All men must die.


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certainly he uses many sources outside of norse mythology as inspiration and many characters have more than one parallel. southern characters in particular have many parelels in greek and roman history and myth but the primary arch has to do with a nation descending into apocalypse.

I doubt that the whole story is going to end with meera and hodor climbing out of a tree left with the task of repopulating the earth, but most of the main characters will not survive. for those still hoping jon and dany will fall in love, marry, and sweep away the others with dragonfire this ending will be more bitter than sweet. All men must die.

I am just rereading part I and came across this scene: Before leaving the wall, Tyrion discusses winter with Mormont, I believe. He begs Tyrion to ask the Queen/King to send people to the watch as winter is coming and the watch are too few to guard the wall. Tryrion, who doesn't believe the story and is rather embarassed by the doom & gloom prediction, tries to shrug it off by saying something along the lines of "And my wetnurse told me that if we men were good, the gods would send us everlasting summer, and no winter at all."

As people are so patently NOT good, maybe Tyrion's statement should prepare us readers for winter forever and Valar morghulis.

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I am just rereading part I and came across this scene: Before leaving the wall, Tyrion discusses winter with Mormont, I believe. He begs Tyrion to ask the Queen/King to send people to the watch as winter is coming and the watch are too few to guard the wall. Tryrion, who doesn't believe the story and is rather embarassed by the doom & gloom prediction, tries to shrug it off by saying something along the lines of "And my wetnurse told me that if we men were good, the gods would send us everlasting summer, and no winter at all."

As people are so patently NOT good, maybe Tyrion's statement should prepare us readers for winter forever and Valar morghulis.

If my memory serves, and it has been a long time, in Ragnarok all humanity is destroyed sans two people who repopulate the world when winter ends. So you may actually be right :)

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