Unrealistic Battle Sequences

[Lord Reaver]

The cold count on the "nightmarish" day (12 horses and 4 men) is less men than the first time we get a cold count of 9 horses and 6 men.

Nope. It's 1 more:"One man dead, three missing."

"Six horses lost, one of them mine own."

"Two dead men, one a knight. Four horses down. We got one up again. The others are lost. Destriers, and one palfrey."

The cold count, Asha heard it named."

That is the first mention of "cold count" I can find. I don't see the reference to 6 dead, so you'd have to give me a reference or quote.

The cold count reached more than 80 last time. The "nightmarish day" was after 32 days of march, with losses in that same area counting since at least the 9th day (over 100 men in ~23 days by the "nightmarish day"). After the 33rd day, we get another 19 days of being snowed in, where the food is already gone and the men start dying in increasing numbers, upto 80 men and horses in one night (a few hundred more men).

80 is the absolute last cold count we get, yes. That hardly means it's been that high in the days before that, as the food supply had been better (fish).

Still, sure, a couple hundred. But made up by the fact Karstark had joined with 400.

We don't get 5,000 near Winterfel from the text.

ADWD, The Turncloak: "Glorious madness. Stannis has five thousand, they say,"

[Ravenkingsamurai]

I think most of the people here don't know what it's like to fight on a horse. Cavalry was feared due to its massive charging blows to the enemy ranks, not for fighting foot soldiers. In a fight between a cavalry man and a foot soldier, the foot soldier has ENORMOUS advantage. Basically, the cavalry man has just 1 angle to attack. And that angle can be quite easily blocked by a shield, while he's covering all your blows, he can stab you in the leg or if he has some type of pole-arm, he can drag you from the horse and I'm not even talking about what would happen if there was a foot soldier with a spear...

He can slice the horses legs and the rider will be on the ground and when he's got plate armor on, he's really not getting up, then it's very easy to stab him in the head through visor, to the groin, armpits etc.

So, you see, in a 1v1 fight it was almost impossible for the foot soldier to loose. Add up to that, Tyrion, eventhough he has very strong arms, has small reach, I REALLY don't think he could kill ANYBODY.

No, im afraid that although you make excellent points your point that the infantry man will always win is quite frankly wrong. Rather, the opposite is true.Cavalry were the medieval tanks for a reason-the only way to beat one was to mob it and attack it from all sides ( hence why cavalry were only beaten by solid infantry formations, often supported by their own cavalry, entrenchments and archers.) The horseman has a HUGE height advantage ( something that as discussed in this thread is very hard to fight against.) You also make the mistake of thinking that plate armor is unwieldy and heavy, when all research has shown its lighter that today's infantryman kit. The horseman can easily maneuver, strike down with ease from multiple angles, and given that cavalryman are almost always rich ( due to price of a good warhorse) they'll have the best arrow deflecting armor that is difficult to penetrate.The horsemans feet and lower areas will also be protected.

And you're forgetting the most important factor-the warhorse itself. Horses can be trained to last out against attackers ( and one hoof to the face is an instant KO,) bite and simply charge through enemys-despite popular misconceptions, horses can and have charged through spear walls ( see aftermath of the battle of Salamanca where German cavalry broke French squares.) A single spearman will simply be outmaneuvered, run down, struck down from above.....

Quite simply, Cavalry were superweapons not just because of there charge, but because they had such an absolutely huge advantage in an infantry fight. And so long as they're supported and aren't bogged down where they can be mobbed or picked of by archers? They're almost (almost) unstoppable since few forces-especially the non proffesional infantry of Medieval times-will stand against them long. Especially against surprised, exhausted or lightly armored opponents.

[Nyrhex]

Nope. It's 1 more:"One man dead, three missing."

"Six horses lost, one of them mine own."

"Two dead men, one a knight. Four horses down. We got one up again. The others are lost. Destriers, and one palfrey."

The cold count, Asha heard it named."

That is the first mention of "cold count" I can find. I don't see the reference to 6 dead, so you'd have to give me a reference or quote.

80 is the absolute last cold count we get, yes. That hardly means it's been that high in the days before that, as the food supply had been better (fish).

Still, sure, a couple hundred. But made up by the fact Karstark had joined with 400.

ADWD, The Turncloak: "Glorious madness. Stannis has five thousand, they say,"

3 dead and 3 missing. Missing means either thier bodies were not found, or they deserted and tried to return to Deepwood or some other holdfast. They are the same as the dead - 3 men fewer in the host.

Of course it was not 80 every day, that would kill off ~1,500 men. But slowly increasing numbers each day, plus the ~100 from the march, gets you close to Karstak's numbers. Combine Karstark and we get back to 5,000. The same as Stannis had after retaking Deepwood Motte. The clansman that Asha questions tells her that other than him and the other 4 men, there are another 3-4,000 men coming.

The number 5,000 is what Stannis had at Deepwood Motte, and Bolton does not know about his losses yet. Stannis writes to Karstark, who writes to Bolton. We can't get from that the number of losses against Asha, since it is already larger by over a 1,000 men from what he had at the battle.

[Lord Reaver]

The clansman that Asha questions tells her that other than him and the other 4 men, there are another 3-4,000 men coming.

3-4000 clansmen, yes. Add to that 1500 knights, and you get around 5000.

since it is already larger by over a 1,000 men from what he had at the battle.

Nope, it's roughly the same. And that's with the men of the Glovers and Mormonts. Which, if we go by the Karstark example is about 800-1000 each (only about half the Karstarks are with Stannis, the rest are with Bolton).

Granted, Karstark is a bigger house than those, so if we say half, then each of those houses contributes with 400 men, again, it would bring Stannis' host to 6000 not 5000 unless he took fairly heavy losses against Asha.

[Jasta11]

Three things stand out for me;

-Wildling arrows hitting the top of the Wall. 700 feet up, in windy conditions, with the bone and sinew crap the Free Folk cobble together? Impossible. Maybe one freak shot in a million that gets carried up by the wind. But several arrows zing past Jon and friends, and the scarecrows they put up are pincushioned as well, and a Black Brother gets hit and dies. That's really unrealistic.

-Asha and her boys killing ten times their number, and have a bodycount competition no less, while utterly surprised by hardened clansmen. That's simply ridiculous, they should have been overwhelmed shortly. The sequence was right out of a Lord of the Rings movie and irked me a lot.

-Tyrion in general. Yes, yes, he's trained and all, but there's no way he should be able to stay on his saddle in a furious melee (he has poor balance by definition) and most importantly, he has only half the reach of a normal man at best, not helped by using an axe. Yet in both of his major battles he goes Super Saiyan and kills almost as many enemies as Jaime himself killed at the Whispering Wood. That's also egregious.

I don't consider the Oberyn vs Mountain battle too unrealistic. Martin spends some time explaining how a spear is the only weapon that can beat Gregor's range, and beating a 8 feet tall killing machine at his own game is utterly futile. A well crafted spear piercing the weak points of a plate doesn't seem unrealistic to me, and Oberyn had all the space to manoever he wanted, not to mention he's an intelligent guy with plenty of combat experience who planned ahead. Gregor, however, is a brute who is probably used to cleaving peasants in half and overpowering weaker men with his massive strength.

[Vesemir]

No, im afraid that although you make excellent points your point that the infantry man will always win is quite frankly wrong. Rather, the opposite is true.Cavalry were the medieval tanks for a reason-the only way to beat one was to mob it and attack it from all sides ( hence why cavalry were only beaten by solid infantry formations, often supported by their own cavalry, entrenchments and archers.) The horseman has a HUGE height advantage ( something that as discussed in this thread is very hard to fight against.) You also make the mistake of thinking that plate armor is unwieldy and heavy, when all research has shown its lighter that today's infantryman kit. The horseman can easily maneuver, strike down with ease from multiple angles, and given that cavalryman are almost always rich ( due to price of a good warhorse) they'll have the best arrow deflecting armor that is difficult to penetrate.The horsemans feet and lower areas will also be protected.

And you're forgetting the most important factor-the warhorse itself. Horses can be trained to last out against attackers ( and one hoof to the face is an instant KO,) bite and simply charge through enemys-despite popular misconceptions, horses can and have charged through spear walls ( see aftermath of the battle of Salamanca where German cavalry broke French squares.) A single spearman will simply be outmaneuvered, run down, struck down from above.....

Quite simply, Cavalry were superweapons not just because of there charge, but because they had such an absolutely huge advantage in an infantry fight. And so long as they're supported and aren't bogged down where they can be mobbed or picked of by archers? They're almost (almost) unstoppable since few forces-especially the non proffesional infantry of Medieval times-will stand against them long. Especially against surprised, exhausted or lightly armored opponents.

I am quite weary of the fact, that plate armor is really useful, and isn't heavy at all. But didn't Frederick I. Barbarossa drown in mud, because he had plate armor on and couldn't get up? I think I've read it somewhere...

Anyway, I was talking more about ligh-ish cavalry, rather than "Lord" cavalry with every armor purchasable, when in fact, there was really not many soldiers, who could afford all of this. (Not to summon E-ro, I'm weary of the fact, that medieval armies weren't composed of untrained peasants.) But thank you for proving me wrong at some points.

[Nyrhex]

3-4000 clansmen, yes. Add to that 1500 knights, and you get around 5000.

Nope, it's roughly the same. And that's with the men of the Glovers and Mormonts. Which, if we go by the Karstark example is about 800-1000 each (only about half the Karstarks are with Stannis, the rest are with Bolton).

The Clansmen are 2-3,000 men. Jon tells Stannis that they are 2-3,000. The clansman that talks to Asha tells her that other than the 5 captured, another 3-4,000 men total are coming. Men, not clansmen. Stannis has 1,300 men on Dragonstone, leaves over 80 on the Wall, a token garrison on Dragonstoen, and minimal losses against the Wildlings, and has at most 1,200 men for Deepwood. The clansmen telling Asha that 3-4,000 are coming would be odd to ommit Stannis and his men, and fits with Stannis having a little over 1,000 and another 2-3,000 clansmen.

Stannis is joined by the Northmen should be another 1,000 total. Karstark brings the remaining Karstarks to Stannis - ~450 men. There are no Karstarks with Bolton, because Karstark still plays up that he allied with Stannis. After Robb took forces south, Ramsay gets 600 Boltons, Rodrick gets 600 men from Winterfell, and the rest of the bannermen get ~400 men.

[Talleyrand]

I am quite weary of the fact, that plate armor is really useful, and isn't heavy at all. But didn't Frederick I. Barbarossa drown in mud, because he had plate armor on and couldn't get up? I think I've read it somewhere...

He couldn't get up because he was in a river too strong even for his horse.

There are tales of French Knights drowning in the mud at Azincourt, though that is more likely due to the fact that if they fell the men behind them weren't really giving them much chance to get back up than anything to do with the armour's weight

[Ravenkingsamurai]

I am quite weary of the fact, that plate armor is really useful, and isn't heavy at all. But didn't Frederick I. Barbarossa drown in mud, because he had plate armor on and couldn't get up? I think I've read it somewhere...

Anyway, I was talking more about ligh-ish cavalry, rather than "Lord" cavalry with every armor purchasable, when in fact, there was really not many soldiers, who could afford all of this. (Not to summon E-ro, I'm weary of the fact, that medieval armies weren't composed of untrained peasants.) But thank you for proving me wrong at some points.

Actually Fredrick Barbarossa drowned whilst swimming in a river naked-a pretty anti-climactic death really considering he was on crusade. Your probably thinking of French knights during the 100 year war who drowned in battle because they were trampled-not just sinking.

However, your right that light cavalry would be much more vulnerable-although they still have huge advantages-even if they do not have a fighting physique like tyrion.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

The one that gets me is when the Wildlings shoot arrows 700 feet in the air up at the Wall.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Here's the passage from the Battle of the Green Fork...

By then the enemy was on him, and Tyrion's battle shrunk to the few feet of ground around his horse. A man-at-arms thrust at his chest and his axe lashed out, knocking the spear aside. The man danced back for another try, but Tyrion spurred his horse and rode right over him. Bronn was surrounded by three foes, but he lopped the head off the first spear that came at him, and raked his blade across a second man's face on his backslash.

A thrown spear came hurtling at Tyrion from the left and lodged in his shield with a woody chunk. He wheeled and raced after the thrower, but the man raised his own shield over his head. Tyrion circled around him, raining axe blows down on the wood. Chips of oak went flying, until the northerner lost his feet and slipped, failing flat on his back with his shield on top of him. He was below the reach of Tyrion's axe and it was too much bother to dismount, so he left him there and rode after another man, taking him from behind with a sweeping downcut that sent a jolt of impact up his arm. That won him a moment's respite. Reining up, he looked for the river. There it was, off to the right. Somehow he had gotten turned around.

A Burned Man rode past, slumped against his horse. A spear had entered his belly and come out through his back. He was past any help, but when Tyrion saw one of the northerners run up and make a grab for his reins, he charged.

His quarry met him sword in hand. He was tall and spare, wearing a long chainmail hauberk and gauntlets of lobstered steel, but he'd lost his helm and blood ran down into his eyes from a gash across his forehead. Tyrion aimed a swipe at his face, but the tall man slammed it aside. "Dwarf," he screamed. "Die." He turned in a circle as Tyrion rode around him, hacking at his head and shoulders. Steel rang on steel, and Tyrion soon realized that the tall man was quicker and stronger than he was. Where in the seven hells was Bronn? "Die," the man grunted, chopping at him savagely. Tyrion barely got his shield up in time, and the wood seemed to explode inward under the force of the blow. The shattered pieces fell away from his arm. "Die!" the swordsman bellowed, shoving in close and whanging Tyrion across the temple so hard his head rang. The blade made a hideous scraping sound as he drew it back over the steel. The tall man grinned . . . until Tyrion's destrier bit, quick as a snake, laying his cheek bare to the bone. Then he screamed. Tyrion buried his axe in his head. "You die," he told him, and he did.

As he wrenched the blade free, he heard a shout. Eddard!" a voice rang out. "For Eddard and Winterfell!" The knight came thundering down on him, swinging the spiked ball of a morningstar around his head. Their warhorses slammed together before Tyrion could so much as open his mouth to shout for Bronn. His right elbow exploded with pain as the spikes punched through the thin metal around the joint. His axe was gone, as fast as that. He clawed for his sword, but the morningstar was circling again, coming at his face. A sickening crunch, and he was falling. He did not recall hitting the ground, but when he looked up there was only sky above him. He rolled onto his side and tried to find his feet, but pain shuddered through him and the world throbbed. The knight who had felled him drew up above him. "Tyrion the Imp," he boomed down. "You are mine. Do you yield, Lannister?"

Yes, Tyrion thought, but the word caught in his throat. He made a croaking sound and fought his way to his knees, fumbling for a weapon. His sword, his dirk, anything . . .

"Do you yield?" The knight loomed overhead on his armored warhorse. Man and horse both seemed immense. The spiked ball swung in a lazy circle. Tyrion's hands were numb, his vision blurred, his scabbard empty. "Yield or die," the knight declared, his flail whirling faster and faster.

Tyrion lurched to his feet, driving his head into the horse's belly. The animal gave a hideous scream and reared. It tried to twist away from the agony, a shower of blood and viscera poured down over Tyrion's face, and the horse fell like an avalanche. The next he knew, his visor was packed with mud and something was crushing his foot. He wriggled free, his throat so tight he could scarce talk. " . . . yield . . . " he managed to croak faintly.

"Yes," a voice moaned, thick with pain.

Tyrion scraped the mud off his helm so he could see again. The horse had fallen away from him, onto its rider. The knight's leg was trapped, the arm he'd used to break his fall twisted at a grotesque angle. "Yield," he repeated. Fumbling at his belt with his good hand, he drew a sword and flung it at Tyrion's feet. "I yield, my lord."

First Tyrion knocks aside the tip of a spear with his axe from horseback and rides the man down. No issue there. Then he hacked down at a man, who already thrown his spear, who finally fell and Tyrion left him because the man, who was lying on the ground now, was beyond his reach. Realistic enough so far. As a third man was running away from him Tyrion, still mounted, cut him down from behind. OK. Tyrion next fought an unmounted wordsman with no helm. The other was about to get the best of him when his destrier bit his opponent and Tyrionstruck his head with his axe. That's what warhorsse are bred and trained to do. The one mounted fighter he faced, the one one with the morningstar, made short work of Tyrion, knocking him off his horse. Just what you'd expect. Recognizing Tyrion the man paused and walked his horse over Tyrion, who was wearing a helmet with a foot-long spike, which he drove into the horse's belly. What's wrong with that? The dead horse fell and trapped his opponent, severely injuring the man in the process. I really don't see how this is unrealistic.

And here's the fighting from the Blackwater...

Ahead of Tyrion was a knight whose surcoat showed a fox peering through a ring of flowers. Florent was his first thought, but helmless ran a close second. He smashed the man in the face with all the weight of axe and arm and charging horse, taking off half his head. The shock of impact numbed his shoulder.

As long as he's holding a battle ace with strong arms, i'm ok with this.

A spear thudded against his shield. ... Tyrion rode down an archer, opened a spearman from shoulder to armpit, glanced a blow off a swordfish-crested helm.

... An arrow clattered against his cheek, missing his eye slit by an inch.

... Another spearman ran at him. Tyrion lopped off the head of his spear, then his hand, then his arm, trotting around him in a circle. An archer, bowless, thrust at him with an arrow, holding it as if it were a knife. The destrier kicked at the man's thigh to send him sprawling, and Tyrion barked laughter. ... A knight rose up from nowhere to hack at his shield with a two-handed greatsword, again and again, until someone thrust a dagger under his arm. ...

A man-at-arms grabbed the bridle of his horse and thrust at Tyrion's face with a dagger. He knocked the blade aside and buried the axe in the nape of the man's neck. As he was wresting it free, a blaze of white appeared at the edge of his vision. Tyrion turned, thinking to find Ser Mandon Moore beside him again, but this was a different white knight. Ser Balon Swann wore the same armor, but his horse trappings bore the battling black-and-white swans of his House. ...

A spearman wearing the red crab badge of House Celtigar drove the point of his weapon up through the chest of Balon Swann's horse before he could dismount, spilling the knight from the saddle. Tyrion hacked at the man's head as he flashed by, and by then it was too late to rein up. His stallion leapt from the end of the quay and over a splintered gunwale, landing with a splash and a scream in ankle-deep water. Tyrion's axe went spinning, followed by Tyrion himself, and the deck rose up to give him a wet smack.

... Men came at him. Some he killed, some he wounded, and some went away, but always there were more. He lost his knife and gained a broken spear, he could not have said how. He clutched it and stabbed, shrieking curses. Men ran from him and he ran after them, clambering up over the rail to the next ship and then the next. ...

His own killing was a clumsy thing. He stabbed one man in the kidney when his back was turned, and grabbed another by the leg and upended him into the river. Arrows hissed past his head and clattered off his armor; one lodged between shoulder and breastplate, but he never felt it. ...

Suddenly the river was pouring into his helm. He ripped it off and crawled along the listing deck until the water was only neck deep. ...

Then Mandon Moore shears off part of Tyrion's face before Pod runs him through from behind.

[Bryden Tully]

Wasn't the shield pretty much abandoned by knights after the 13/14th in favour of the broadsword? That's why Nobles are pretty safe on horseback because it requires a lance followed by a mace/flail to the head to actually kill someone in plate. I always get the impression that when people use plate armour it seems to be like a piece of foil when in fact the only way to disable a Knight in plate is to get him on his back and slit his throat.

Likewise I know it's hardly mentioned by Daemon Blackfrye was said to of been killed by archers- a man in head to toe of plate armour is going to need about 150 arrows in him to be Killed