Winnief Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 One thing, I've found confusing is that Arianne Martell who is in line to receive real power in her own right, and rule over Dorne seems so eager to trade that in to be Queen Consort of Westeros. It's an expansion of territory to be sure, but it's giving up hard power for a much more tenuous position. (Note how frustrated Cersei was by the discovery of how limited her power was as Queen, and how hard she fought to obtain some in her own right.) I mean she ran away from home to try to marry Willas Tyrrell, which would be a great match for most women-but if she married him it would mean leaving Dorne to be the Lady of the Reach at Highgarden, and again surrendering the chance to rule in her own right something she doesn't appear to have considered. (And why marrying a well born Dornish man would actually be her best move, really-that way her husband could be her consort.) Then there's her obsession with marrying a Targaryen. She automatically thinks Viserys, would have been a great match to make her Queen, (and it's a serious mistake that either she or Doran actually believe Viserys could have been king-they never met him but didn't they hear reports?!?) and seems poised to once more try with fAegon, (something unlikely to end well for her,) but I really don't get her fascination with the IT in the first place. I almost wonder if Dorne with its more expanded roles for women has 'spoiled' her and kept her from understanding just how much more limited the roles of women are in the rest of Westeros; and how much more precarious is the position of a woman who marries into 'her' kingdom(s). Marrying a Lannister sure didn't improve Sansa's position any... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosimaistheHottest Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 IDK. A chance to help rule over the Seven Kingdoms and having your progeny rule over the Kingdoms. But you are right at least to me, it may be a really tenuous position especially if your husband doesn't even listen to you. With the Highgarden bethrothal, that is different. She would have stayed the Princess of Dorne. They would probably set up how it would work. She doesn't forego being Princess of Dorne to be Lady of Highgarden. It actually just increases her power and has her children ruling over Dorne and Highgarden. A crapload of people seem to want the Seven Kingdoms so it isn't just Arianne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Lights Hound Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Arianne believes she is going to be bypassed by her brother in the line of succession. And as you say in Dorne women have greater rights so Queen of the 7 kingdoms is better than passed over princess of Dorne she has been expecting for the past few years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronn Urgandy Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Yeah, Arrianne thought Dorne was going to Trystane. By the time the marriage with (f)Aegon appears she's acting for her house more so than herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoamingRonin Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Arianne thought her father was going to give her title to Quentyn. She is not eager to be queen consort. She practically just found out about the marriage pact to Viserys. I don't see how that makes her obsessed. The marriage pact was all on Doran. Doran might have heard of Viserys was not the ideal child but it's been years since then. The marriage pact came after Elia's death which leads me to believe it was more about vengeance than anything else. Arianne might be able to marry (f)Aegon but the majority of her thoughts during her trip to meet JonCon and company are about Quentyn. She's not sure what to expect of (f)Aegon and not once thinks of marrying him. She wonders if Viserys was beautiful and why Dany would allow him to be killed but none of this suggests she was eager to marry him. It doesn't even show she was disappointed he died, just curious about the circumstances surrounding his demise.All in all, Arianne seems more eager to be princess of Dorne, not queen consort of the 7 kingdoms. She wants power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Lepus Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 One thing, I've found confusing is that Arianne Martell who is in line to receive real power in her own right, and rule over Dorne seems so eager to trade that in to be Queen Consort of Westeros. It's an expansion of territory to be sure, but it's giving up hard power for a much more tenuous position. (Note how frustrated Cersei was by the discovery of how limited her power was as Queen, and how hard she fought to obtain some in her own right.) I mean she ran away from home to try to marry Willas Tyrrell, which would be a great match for most women-but if she married him it would mean leaving Dorne to be the Lady of the Reach at Highgarden, and again surrendering the chance to rule in her own right something she doesn't appear to have considered. (And why marrying a well born Dornish man would actually be her best move, really-that way her husband could be her consort.) Then there's her obsession with marrying a Targaryen. She automatically thinks Viserys, would have been a great match to make her Queen, (and it's a serious mistake that either she or Doran actually believe Viserys could have been king-they never met him but didn't they hear reports?!?) and seems poised to once more try with fAegon, (something unlikely to end well for her,) but I really don't get her fascination with the IT in the first place. I almost wonder if Dorne with its more expanded roles for women has 'spoiled' her and kept her from understanding just how much more limited the roles of women are in the rest of Westeros; and how much more precarious is the position of a woman who marries into 'her' kingdom(s). Marrying a Lannister sure didn't improve Sansa's position any... 1.-The Westerosi have been educated to think that kings are awesome and that being king or queen is wonderful and the best thing ever. Those are people obsessed with rank and nobility and titles and old names and bloodlines and all that stuff; they think of people first and foremonst as holders of a title or social rank. Becoming king or queen means reaching the peak of the social hierarchy, and the most desirable thing. 2.-Arianne obviously lacks a good education as a politician, and has some unrealistic ideas about how rulership works. Remember her crappy plan to become ruling Princess, that would have doomed Dorne. She doesn't even know how many soldiers her own kingdom has!. 3.-I don't think she knows anything about Viserys's character. As a royal prince any weird or evil thing the could do was probably concealed, Oberyn and Doran never told her about their marriage contract, so she didn't feel the need to investigate Viserys, and while the Essosi probably tell all kind of funny stories about the Beggar King, 99 % of them are surely false and Arianne knows that. I think Doran and Oberyn knew about Viserys's character thanks to Elia's letters and their Essosi spies, but Oberyn was eager to avenge Elia and just didn't care (if Viserys becane dangerous to Arianne, Oberyn would just poison him and be done with it). As for Doran, once he learnt how zany Viserys was, he probably abandoned that plan until he heard about Dany's dragons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Voldemort's Toes Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 "Zany." LOL. ^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Lepus Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 "Zany." LOL. ^^ Doesn't it mean "clown", "fool" or "mad"? I'm not a native english speaker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Voldemort's Toes Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Doesn't it mean "clown", "fool" or "mad"? I'm not a native english speaker.Oh, I wasn't making fun of you or anything like that. Sorry for my failure to communicate. I thought it was an especially creative and humorous way to describe Viserys. Usually zany has a more...innocent or harmless connotation than is exactly applicable to Viserys' brand of cruel madness, so what you said came off as facetious. That's why I laughed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Turtle Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Well this won't be diplomatic but I think that she is simply stupid and naive. Though to give her some credit maybe deep down she feels that she doesn't have what it takes to be a ruler of Dorne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winnief Posted February 7, 2014 Author Share Posted February 7, 2014 Well this won't be diplomatic but I think that she is simply stupid and naive. Sadly, Ice Turtle, I think you might be right. Doran said, he never told her about her plans because he couldn't trust her to keep her mouth shut, (not even when she got out of her teens and into her twenties,) her plans for Myrcella were always doomed, and again as Doran pointed out, she has a highly flawed understanding of Dorne's military strength. I also love how in her chapter in TWoW, she thinks that Dany may have *let* Viserys die, so that she Dany could be Queen rather than Arianne. Has Arianne bothered listening to anything, about Dany and Viserys or his death?!? She's not delusional to the extent Cersei is, but may the Seven help Dorne, if she winds up running the Kingdom by herself. Let's hope Trystane makes it to adulthood-especially since Arianne might not survive at all if she *does* decide to marry fAegon for the IT... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosimaistheHottest Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 People probably won't like this either, but it is annoying that the first real female heir and future female ruling Head that we see is so inadequate and incompetent and in how Doran let her run around and be this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 I should think she thinks she'd wield real power as Queen. In any case, as of TWOW, her ambitions encompass both ruling Dorne, and being Queen.Doran never trusted her, but now has no choice but to delegate his power to her and the Sand Snakes. Whatever his feelings, he should have shared his plans with her, as she's his heir.In the alternative, if he was convinced that she was unfit to rule, then he should have disinherited her, and sent her into exile with her mother or kept her under house arrest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Whore Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Arianne is not my favorite person, but I think her behavior is pretty logical considering how most people would react, particularly those within the feudal system of Westeros. If she is unsure of her claim to Dorne, why not marry someone with powerful political ties? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winnief Posted February 7, 2014 Author Share Posted February 7, 2014 Arianne is not my favorite person, but I think her behavior is pretty logical considering how most people would react, particularly those within the feudal system of Westeros. If she is unsure of her claim to Dorne, why not marry someone with powerful political ties? Perhaps Queen Whore. But now that Arianne's been assured of her place in succession, it will be interesting to see if she's still eager for a Targ match with fAegon, (which the way her upcoming chapter in WoW is written I think she will be) even when that isn't such a safe move, given doubts of his legitimacy and that Dany ain't riding with him. Or maybe she'll smarten up. We'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire and Blood! Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Where does the idea that the queen of Westeros has less power than the princess of Dorne come from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noneofyourbusiness Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 I think Doran and Oberyn knew about Viserys's character thanks to Elia's letters and their Essosi spies, but Oberyn was eager to avenge Elia and just didn't care (if Viserys becane dangerous to Arianne, Oberyn would just poison him and be done with it). As for Doran, once he learnt how zany Viserys was, he probably abandoned that plan until he heard about Dany's dragons. Or Doran and Oberyn figured that Viserys sounded like a weak figure who would be easily manipulated. Where does the idea that the queen of Westeros has less power than the princess of Dorne come from? Depending on the circumstances, such as the characters of the woman in question and her husband, being Queen of the Seven Kingdoms (by virtue of being married to the king, rather than in one's own right) could turn out to be a mostly ornamental role, whereas the Princess of Dorne theoretically has absolute power within the confines of Dorne. The queen might not get the chance to manage any of the affairs of the realm, in fact it's not part of her job description as royal consort to do so, whereas the Princess of Dorne makes executive decisions for Dorne at the highest level unless she decides to delegate them. However, the queen might indeed end up being the real power behind the throne and managing the affairs of the realm if she has a husband of weaker character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Guapo Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Or Doran and Oberyn figured that Viserys sounded like a weak figure who would be easily manipulated. Depending on the circumstances, such as the characters of the woman in question and her husband, being Queen of the Seven Kingdoms (by virtue of being married to the king, rather than in one's own right) could turn out to be a mostly ornamental role, whereas the Princess of Dorne theoretically has absolute power within the confines of Dorne. The queen might not get the chance to manage any of the affairs of the realm, in fact it's not part of her job description as royal consort to do so, whereas the Princess of Dorne makes executive decisions for Dorne at the highest level unless she decides to delegate them. However, the queen might indeed end up being the real power behind the throne and managing the affairs of the realm if she has a husband of weaker character. And Arianne does seem to have this "ability" to get men to do what she wants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCBC Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 And Arianne does seem to have this "ability" to get men to do what she wants. Things don't always go exactly the way she wants them to go. Like Noneofyourbusiness has stated, a queen might be a higher rank then a ruler of Dorne is but it isn't necessarily more power. As the ruler in Dorne, Arianne would have control over everything, instead of being in a situation where she has work with another person or be completely shut out as Queen. I agree with the OP in that I don't really get it myself, especially in a fantasy world where that kind of freedom is rare for women. Other than the vanity of having the title of Queen, not much else seems to be appealing about it. Wonder if it's kind of a Sansa-style of situation, where Arianne is going to idealize being a Queen & get herself into trouble later on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illrede Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 Cersei would have been frustrated with how limited her power was as Lord of Casterly Rock. Not understanding how limited her power was as the unquestioned reigning Regent resulted in her being deposed; she's like James II that way. There have been Queen Consorts in Seven Kingdoms history that held reins of power; with Dorne to draw on, I believe Arianne would have been one of them. Heck, Cersei was one of them during Robert's reign, and she certainly didn't do it obliquely through charm; Maergery doesn't throw her weight around as a matter of preference of style. Rhaella was not; she had no power base. Sansa would not have been. Queen of the Seven Kingdoms isn't a hollow title, the issue is you need power to leverage it, which Arianne would have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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