How was Ned able to inspire loyalty even after death?

[WierWood Wolf]

Ned is a Stark through and through. Just read Wylla Manderly quote about House Stark. Nuf said

[Heyo Winter Comin']

We don't learn about Ned's style of ruling from Ned himself, and not even so much as people's comments about Ned. What you should look at is Robb and Jon. Through their entire story arcs they are seen using leadership skills learnt from their father. Every time a comment is made about what their father taught them ("My father told me the map is not the land", Robb riding with each of his bannermen in turn) are seen as skills they've picked up from Ned that indicate Ned really understood the North and how to rule his people well. You could make an entire post about lessons the boys learn from Ned.

Some more:

"My father said he never ate as well as when he was with the Mountain Clans"-where Jon also says that Stannis should praise their sons and compliment their daughters.

"As far as he knew his father never had any reason to be annoyed at Lord Bolton, but nevertheless he never fully trusted him"-A Stark knows to keep wary of the Boltons.

[BitsOfBrains]

I think Ned got a lot of street cred from Roberts Rebellion.

Tywin Lanister might have wiped out some minor lords who weren't even real threats to him, but Ned and company wiped out the ruling family, a family that was considered to be semi godly.

Plus he was a good dude. Northerners value a sort of down to earth hard working honest, "strong silent" type. Its kind of like the midwest of Westeros.

An obsequious over friendly type or a glutton or whatever would never be respected, but just a stand up dude with some serious military chops is just the man for the region.

[David Selig]

We don't learn about Ned's style of ruling from Ned himself, and not even so much as people's comments about Ned. What you should look at is Robb and Jon. Through their entire story arcs they are seen using leadership skills learnt from their father. Every time a comment is made about what their father taught them ("My father told me the map is not the land", Robb riding with each of his bannermen in turn) are seen as skills they've picked up from Ned that indicate Ned really understood the North and how to rule his people well. You could make an entire post about lessons the boys learn from Ned.

Some more:

"My father said he never ate as well as when he was with the Mountain Clans"-where Jon also says that Stannis should praise their sons and compliment their daughters.

"As far as he knew his father never had any reason to be annoyed at Lord Bolton, but nevertheless he never fully trusted him"-A Stark knows to keep wary of the Boltons.

Given that both Robb and Jon were betrayed and assassinated by their allies and subordinates, that doesn't seem like much of a proof for Ned's skills in inspiring loyalty. :cool4:

[Lord Voldemort's Toes]

He's a straightforward, fair-minded guy with a heavy sense of obligation. Why wouldn't the people to whom he is obligated be pretty thrilled about him?

[Wisenan69]

This thread is silly and extremely short sighted.

The loyalty Ned inspires goes beyond frattish charisma or a thousand yard stare.

Look at the setting of the books.

A feudal kingdom, where the people in power lie, betray and disregard anyone who don't further their own agendas.

Tywin wiped two houses out, children and all.

Robert gained the throne and neglected it and the people he swore to serve.

Balon.....lol, not even gonna dignify that with a response.

In a system of government where exploitation is so easy and commonplace, Ned was one of the few examples of a cool steady hand, whose first regard was for the people he was in charge of.

He meant what he said, and he tried his best to see it through in action.

That might not mean a lot to you, but in a broken and excessively top down power structure ala Westeros, that is everything.

You're loyal to people like Ned because people like Ned are loyal to you.

In a Westeros where everyone is a politician, Ned being a tried and true man makes him bad at the game but beloved in life.

Imagine Eddard Stark and Mace Tyrell switch places.

The youngest son of the extremely powerful Eddard Stark requests the honor of bringing Gregor Clegane to justice. Mace refuses, and in the process likely saves Rickon's life.

You think Ned Stark wouldn't try his best to return the good deed, even if they're on opposing sides in a war? Even if it wasn't politically the expedient move?

If people were able to see beyond their own desires, they'd wish more powerful men were like Ned Stark and less like Tywin Lannister or Robert Baratheon.

Bravo! The North remembers and there is a reason why they are willing to fight to save "the Ned's little daughter"

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Bravo! The North remembers and there is a reason why they are willing to fight to save "the Ned's little daughter"

That is not partially true. They fought in part because a Southern pretender asked them to.

The clans gave more men to Stannis then they sent off with Robb to free Ned.

Some of the Nobles are very loyal, but let's not pretend they all are.

Umber was prepared to go home if he did not get his own way and only stayed when Robb threatened him.

The Karstark people gave up Robb's cause as soon as their Lord was imprisoned.

The Dustins and Rysewells only sent a portion of their troops.

Bolton, enough said.

And finally Manderly, sent troops to Hornwood when he thought he could gain the land for himself, but did very little to help Winterfell or Moat Cailin when they fell. Suddenly, with it looking like Bolton will lead the North, he is now the Starks biggest cheerleader.

[Addam_Marbrand]

Ned is a Stark through and through. Just read Wylla Manderly quote about House Stark. Nuf said

A dumbass teenager.

I severely doubt Wyman is such a Stark loyalist as he is trying to come off as.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

By the laws of the land he is their lord and they need to be loyal to him. His status in it self inspires some loyalty. Usually that loyalty is lost by anbormally horrible lords or by lords facing very difficult situations.

And he is also a good and just man who is a rarety who also courted relationships with his lords and has a history leading the north in succseful wars and is best friend with the king, has a good relationship with the hand. So some lords like him and are happy for Ned to be their leader, others don't mind him be their leaders, and the likes of Boltons could not really move against him with his position so secure.

Most lords seem to be able to inspire loyalty to most people who are supposed to obey them but there are always some people willing to betray them. Ultimately some people are never loyal and are opportunistically waiting to bite their leader in the ass, others might not be loytal due to interpersonal relationships.

There is a trend of many people being betrayed in this series.

For example:

Robert Baratheon both managed to inspire loyalty and had a lot of vipers who were really not loyal to him around.

Tywin also had those moving against him, including his very son killing him.

And so did the self proclaimed king Balon with Euron.

And so on, so on. I expect Littlefinger to also be betrayed by someone he expects to not move against him.

Ultimately, nobody can inspire absolute loyalty for all, especially in a chaotic environment and dangerous civil war. In Ned's case, Ned's and Robb's character might inspire more loyalty after death than others would do due to their long history of the family rulling and their personality traits. An additional factor is that in most cases where there is an usurpation of power, there will be people fighting for restoring the old order that is part of the "laws of the land" loyalty and "good lord" loyalty, especially if that usurpation it is done as dishonorably as with the red wedding. Bolton sided with their enemies betraying the north, and the Starks. And who the fuck would want Ramsay as their lord, and that vile man marrying Arya? Roose who is an opportunist who consistently harmed other north houses for the benefit of his own is also no good either. These houses with their dead and hostages have plenty of reasons to dislike the Boltons and be loyal to the Starks instead.

[shearstone]

Given that both Robb and Jon were betrayed and assassinated by their allies and subordinates, that doesn't seem like much of a proof for Ned's skills in inspiring loyalty. :cool4:

The minority who got the upper hand by dumb but understandable errors of judgement on teenage boys part. There's still plenty of Robb's loyal men still around itching for vengeance and three Riverland houses who were under no obligation to follow Robb in the first place still flew the Direwolf for as long as they could alone after Robb's death. As for Jon we don't know what's going to happen but it's highly likely Marsh & Co are going to go the way of Brutus and get slaughtered in vengeance for their attack on Jon.

I think in the Davos chapter when the Frey (Rhaegar?) called Robb a vile dog, Davos's description of Manderly at that moment is enough to show you Robb had his loyalty, loyalty gained through Ned.

[Sullen]

Tywin Lanister might have wiped out some minor lords who weren't even real threats to him,

Minor lords?

The Reynes and the Tarbecks were the richest, most powerful Houses in the Westerlands after the Lannisters, that is not a negligible threat.

The man was an awful excuse for a human being, but give credit where it's due.

[~DarkHorse~]

You're loyal to people like Ned because people like Ned are loyal to you.

:agree:

Also, the Northerners aren't just loyal to Ned, they are loyal to the Starks.

The Starks are the North, they have been around for generations.

Unlike the Lannisters, the Stark's were once Kings and have an impressive history behind them that inspires loyalty, they treat their people fairly and stick to their beliefs (old Gods, carrying out executions themselves etc.)

[PrimeRhaegar]

He inspired that because he was honest and honourable. When he says he will do something for you he will almost no lord believed the guy was a traitor even jorah who hated him said he wouldn't do any sort of treason.

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

Using mistakes Robb and Jon make as a way to 'prove' Ned didn't teach them well is silly. No leader is ever safe.

At sixteen Robb kicked ass and took names all over Westeros? Do you think anybody outside of the Freys hold any serious grudges against him? Is anybody going to mock the political inexeprience of a teenage boy? Who looks worse, Robb for lacking political skill, which can be learned given time? Or those who failed to beat him in the field so resorted to heinous crimes against the Gods and men to win at all costs?

And Jon not only volunteered to join the NW, but he led a successful defense of castle black, was elected to Lord Commander (sure he was betrayed but so was Mormont), solved the hostile Wildling problem, was working on rebuilding old castles, was finding a way to feed everyone, all at sixteen years old.

Saying Ned was a failure because of the situation they found themselves in is just wrong. Ned, Robb, and Jon found themselves on the losing end of bad people. Should they get blamed for playing by the rules or should the people who did wrong be held accountable for their behavior. Neds legacy is the greatness and accomplishments of his children. That breeds loyalty, the world sees what he and his boys did and will bring his children back because they deserve it.

[~DarkHorse~]

"I know about the promise … Maester Theomore, tell them! A thousand years before the Conquest, a promise was made, and oaths were sworn in the Wolf's Den before the old god's and the new. When we were sore beset and friendless, hounded from our homes and in peril of our lives, the wolves took us in and nourished us and protected us against our enemies. The city is built upon the land they gave us. In return we swore that we should always be their men. Stark men!"

The Stark's inspire loyalty because they are loyal and honourable- decent men to die for! :commie:

[Mother of Mini Dragons]

Using mistakes Robb and Jon make as a way to 'prove' Ned didn't teach them well is silly. No leader is ever safe.

At sixteen Robb kicked ass and took names all over Westeros? Do you think anybody outside of the Freys hold any serious grudges against him? Is anybody going to mock the political inexeprience of a teenage boy? Who looks worse, Robb for lacking political skill, which can be learned given time? Or those who failed to beat him in the field so resorted to heinous crimes against the Gods and men to win at all costs?

And Jon not only volunteered to join the NW, but he led a successful defense of castle black, was elected to Lord Commander (sure he was betrayed but so was Mormont), solved the hostile Wildling problem, was working on rebuilding old castles, was finding a way to feed everyone, all at sixteen years old.

Saying Ned was a failure because of the situation they found themselves in is just wrong. Ned, Robb, and Jon found themselves on the losing end of bad people. Should they get blamed for playing by the rules or should the people who did wrong be held accountable for their behavior. Neds legacy is the greatness and accomplishments of his children. That breeds loyalty, the world sees what he and his boys did and will bring his children back because they deserve it.

:cheers:

[Tynned Lannistark]

I think Ned is a bit misunderstood and under estimated as a result.

We get to see a lot of him through his own eyes and the eyes of his wife and children - well naturally these are the softer , nicer parts.

But there is quite enough evidence that others view him as tough,fierce, grim and cold, hardly as a sweet nice but weak man. He is far from being a Tytos Lannister kind of guy.

They all admit he is honorable, even his enemies , but there are not many who underestimate his leadership skills or his ability to rule.

The north mostly loves him because he won their appreciation through leadership.

He produces quite and enforces justice throughout the north, and this is why they respect him.

In addition to that the fact house Stark has been ruling the north for ages adds to that. But not all Starks were admired.

I agree with those who say Jon and Robb's leadership qualities were learned from Ned. Their downfall however, comes from doing things he would never do.

Comparing him to Tywin Lannister, I think he actually showed much more leadership. Tywin ruled through fear only.

Very few people, with the exception of his brothers actually loved him or feel loyalty to him after he is dead. Even his own children.

[northwesterner]

Ned is a Stark through and through. Just read Wylla Manderly quote about House Stark. Nuf said

He is probably the least ''Stark'' ruler, his ancestors were harsh hard men, not Ned

[Raving Stark the Mad]

Well, yeah, but unlike the others Ned had no traits that would inspire loyalty

You're kidding, right? All those traits that got Ned killed... the honor, honesty, the sense of duty, the fairness, the mercy, the fact he did his own executions, the fact he worshipped the old gods....

All of those things inspired deep loyalty and respect from the Northern bannermen. He was their Ned, and he was always good to them as far as I know.

Some readers hate Ned because they think he's a jerk or stupid or put his kids at risk. But a lot of readers would agree that if they had to choose a lord to serve, they would have probably chosen Ned.

[The Mountain That Rhymes]

The Starks have supposedly ruled The North for eight thousand years. That's a ridiculously long time, long enough to become irrevocably entwined with Northern culture, For many Northerners disloyalty to them would be inconceivable.