Tyrion hatred

[Zorral]

Tywin was right about everything he said about Tyrion being a little waddling ball of hatred, lust and low cunning. Took me a re-read to see how greedy, selfish and spiteful he truly is.

For the creation which Tywin should own his contributing parenting.

A very bad family for parenting. Not that most of the others are any better, in an age in which all members of any family are foremost counters on the game board.

I don't care for Tyrion as much as others do, but I do find him more interesting in the books than on screen.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

1. He ordered her to disrobe for him and then grabbed her breast. It was after that that he stopped himself. That's molesting, in my definition.

Is it though? they are married and she never says 'stop'. she could have said 'stop'. she took off her own clothes.

but the main thing is that they were married, it was their wedding night. She could have freaked out when going down the isle, fought, kicked screamed, she didnt.

I'm not saying she liked it, but she didnt flip out and resist it either, there are always choices.

Edit: molestation or rape only occurs when the 'victim' declines the act or resists it. right? taking out the age issue, there are no statutory laws in westeros, we cannot hold them to our standards, it just doesn't make sense in terms of discussing the literature. Once a girl 'flowers' and walks down the isle, she is no longer a child in westeros.

[Dany Girl]

and what could of Tyrion done to stop this? Do you think Tywin would have listened to him? Im sorry but i cannot find myself to hold this against Tyrion, this action is solely the fault of Tywin.

I don't know what he could have done, but fact is he did NOTHING. He didn't even try to stop it, in fact he participated in it. At least if he had tried to stop it and refused to participate I'd have some respect left for him.

[Jory Cassel]

Is it though? they are married and she never says 'stop'. she could have said 'stop'. she took off her own clothes.

but the main thing is that they were married, it was their wedding night. She could have freaked out when going down the isle, fought, kicked screamed, she didnt.

I'm not saying she liked it, but she didnt flip out and resist it either, there are always choices.

what the actual fuck?

yeah, it's not as if Cersei had coerced Sansa into the marriage by threatening her with the Kingsguard who had been violently abusing her all along..

[Dany Girl]

They're not in America though, are they? :)

Is your argument that it is wrong to do that to all 13 year olds everywhere, everytime? Or just in America?

I will guess that you think that it is always wrong for a 26 year old to grab the boob of a 13 year old and flick the nipple, and that's cool. But the vast majority of Westeros and Esssos and certain places in the real world, today and in the past, don't agree with you, especially when the 13 year old is the 26 year old's wife.

What the actual fuck, you said he never molested her. I said he did. Grabbing her boob is definitely molestation. I used the fact that it's an act that'll get you placed in jail now to add weight to my argument. He forced a 13 year old to marry him. He forced her to get naked in front of him. He forced her to not try to cover herself. He then molested her. The fact is he only stopped because he wants her to want him.

[Jory Cassel]

What the actual fuck, you said he never molested her. I said he did. Grabbing her boob is definitely molestation. I used the fact that it's an act that'll get you placed in jail now to add weight to my argument. He forced a 13 year old to marry him. He forced her to get naked in front of him. He forced her to not try to cover herself. He then molested her. The fact is he only stopped because he wants her to want him.

This gets overlooked far too often when assessing the situation.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

what the actual fuck?

yeah, it's not as if Cersei had coerced Sansa into the marriage by threatening her with the Kingsguard who had been violently abusing her all along..

freedom or death, we always have choices.

Edit: and no kingsguard were in the bedroom with them. she took off her own clothes with her own hands, tyrion wasn't holding a knife to her throat.

[LordStoneheart]

Is it though? they are married and she never says 'stop'. she could have said 'stop'. she took off her own clothes.

but the main thing is that they were married, it was their wedding night. She could have freaked out when going down the isle, fought, kicked screamed, she didnt.

Just wow... It was this or be killed. Great choices.

Before the thread devolves into what constitutes molestation or not, lets just take these facts as they are:

1. Sansa is forcibly married to Tyrion. It would've happened whether she resisted or not. That was Tywin's will.

2. Tyrion is 26, give or take. Sansa is 13, give or take.

3. Tyrion has Sansa disrobe and feels her breasts. He stops when he realizes how scared she is.

4. They do not sleep together (have sex, I mean.)

I guess the only thing we can do with the above info is pick a side.

freedom or death, we always have choices.

Again, great choices. Especially for a scared thirteen year old girl who's been traumatized mentally and physically for the past year and a half.

[TheHouseHB]

Haters always hate on the great ones

[Hajk]

I object! Janos Slynt is polarizing!

Baby Barra thinks that anyone who supports him is evil. Who wants to argue with her?

[Dany Girl]

Is it though? they are married and she never says 'stop'. she could have said 'stop'. she took off her own clothes.

but the main thing is that they were married, it was their wedding night. She could have freaked out when going down the isle, fought, kicked screamed, she didnt.

I'm not saying she liked it, but she didnt flip out and resist it either, there are always choices.

Edit: molestation or rape only occurs when the 'victim' declines the act or resists it. right? taking out the age issue, there are no statutory laws in westeros, we cannot hold them to our standards, it just doesn't make sense in terms of discussing the literature. Once a girl 'flowers' and walks down the isle, she is no longer a child in westeros.

So her tears were not enough to signify that in no way did she want to marry or be touched by him?

If you think for 1 moment that Tyrion thought he was welcome in her bed, I've got a bridge to sell you.

He does in fact stop at molestation instead of full on rape because he knows she doesn't want him and he wants happy love sex. He's hoping to convince her to want him, but that'll never happen.

[Jory Cassel]

Haters always hate on the great ones

And this is relevant in a Tyrion-thread because..?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Just wow... It was this or be killed. Great choices.

Before the thread devolves into what constitutes molestation or not, lets just take these facts as they are:

1. Sansa is forcibly married to Tyrion. It would've happened whether she resisted or not. That was Tywin's will.

2. Tyrion is 26, give or take. Sansa is 13, give or take.

3. Tyrion has Sansa disrobe and feels her breasts. He stops when he realizes how scared she is.

4. They do not sleep together (have sex, I mean.)

I guess the only thing we can do with the above info is pick a side.

Again, great choices. Especially for a scared thirteen year old girl who's been traumatized mentally and physically for the past year and a half.

I didnt write the choices, I am just saying they exist. no one forced her to take her clothes off, no one had a gun to her head, she didn't even let out any complaint when it happened. I'm not getting into another discussion like this, I'm out.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

What the actual fuck, you said he never molested her. I said he did. Grabbing her boob is definitely molestation. I used the fact that it's an act that'll get you placed in jail now to add weight to my argument. He forced a 13 year old to marry him. He forced her to get naked in front of him. He forced her to not try to cover herself. He then molested her. The fact is he only stopped because he wants her to want him.

I think it's hard to have a good conversation when everyone is going "fuck fuck fuck fuck" all the time.

According to the laws of Westeros, it wasn't molestation. The fact that he would be placed in jail in America lends no weight at all to your argument. He did not force a 13 year old to marry him, his father did, and he was forced into it as well.

[Blow My Horn]

Love some Tyrion. Is he a dick? Sure, he's a dwarf in a feudal society. And nope, don't care whether he molested Sansa by anyone's definition. He's also self-depricating and owns his flaws unlike any other Lannister. Oh no, he armed some mountain clans!! Striking that deal was what his father taught him to do. It was also the right decision.

[Jory Cassel]

freedom or death, we always have choices.

Edit: and no kingsguard were in the bedroom with them. she took off her own clothes with her own hands, tyrion wasn't holding a knife to her throat.

I didnt write the choices, I am just saying they exist. no one forced her to take her clothes off, no one had a gun to her head, she didn't even let out any complaint when it happened. I'm not getting into another discussion like this, I'm out.

“You can’t make me.”

“Of course we can. You may come along quietly and say your vows as befits a lady, or you may struggle and scream and make a spectacle for the stableboys to titter over, but you will end up wedded and bedded all the same.” The queen opened the door. Ser Meryn Trant and Ser Osmund Kettleblack were waiting without, in the white scale armor of the Kingsguard.

I think it's hard to have a good conversation when everyone is going "fuck fuck fuck fuck" all the time.

According to the laws of Westeros, it wasn't molestation. The fact that he would be placed in jail in America lends no weight at all to your argument. He did not force a 13 year old to marry him, his father did, and he was forced into it as well.

What weird definition of "force" is this? Since when is letting Tyrion choose between marrying Sansa, Lollys or not at all forcing?

[Sweetgirl205]

I could never hate Tyrion. Yes, Tyrion has done some truly horrible things, but who hasn't in ASOIAF world? The only thing I don't like about Tyrion is his tendency to wallow in self pity. Yes, he has had a rough life, but suck it up. At least Bolton Ramsay hasn't taken a liking to him. Now, poor Theon deserves a chance for a little self pity, but we are now off the subject of Tyrion.

He needs to ditch Penny, find Tysha (I hope he finds her and can get some measure of forgiveness of all the wrong done to her.) and Dany, and get back to King's Landing where he belongs and kick some Lannister butt. His sister needs Tyrion, although she will never admit it. Tyrion was right, he was a good king's hand. Maybe he can become the new king's (or queen's) hand.

[Dany Girl]

I think it's hard to have a good conversation when everyone is going "fuck fuck fuck fuck" all the time.

According to the laws of Westeros, it wasn't molestation. The fact that he would be placed in jail in America lends no weight at all to your argument. He did not force a 13 year old to marry him, his father did, and he was forced into it as well.

Whether or not something is considered a-ok in universe is not supposed to make it ok to the reader. Just because husband's were considered to have "rights" doesn't mean it's not rape. These books are written for the modern reader and meant to be judged as so.

He did force her. He had a choice in the matter, she did not. Just because it wasn't his idea doesn't free him from responsibility. He chose her. He chose her pretty face and great title. She was told she would be wedded and bedded no matter what. No death, just wedded and bedded. Cersei made it clear that the KG would beat her into submission, not kill her. There's no way they would allow her to die, they needed her to claim WF.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

What weird definition of "force" is this? Since when is letting Tyrion choose between marrying Sansa, Lollys or not at all forcing?

Force implies coercion. Tyrion had three choices. Sansa, Lollys, or no wife at all. None of the choices were good. He wanted none of them. But he was forced to choose one. Out of all those choices, marrying Sansa was probably the least undesirable to him.

Tyrion was not actively pursing Sansa. Tyrion didn't come up with the idea. His dad put the screws to him. That's coercion. That's force.

Then you need to wonder who Sansa would probably have been married off to if Tyrion hadn't agreed to marry her.

[Sister Meribald]

I love Tyrion. I think the people who hate him are a very vocal minority. Usually when you're happy with something, you quietly enjoy it. When you're not happy with that same thing, you say something. Hence the seeming majority of haters. I think he's still a pretty popular character though.