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Tyrion hatred


Brightstar_

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I didnt write the choices, I am just saying they exist. no one forced her to take her clothes off, no one had a gun to her head, she didn't even let out any complaint when it happened. I'm not getting into another discussion like this, I'm out.

You're giving death as a choice, which it's not. Cersei was not threatening to kill her, just beat her into submission. Cersei and Tywin would not allow her to die before the wedding, they needed her to get WF.

As for saying no to Tyrion, she knows putting up a fight will do nothing. It's been made painfully clear she's gonna be raped. If she tried to fight, guards could be called to get her in line.

Her courtesy is her shield, it's the only thing that does save her because Tyrion wants happy love sex, not to physically hold someone down and rape them. If she'd married anyone else, I doubt her courtesy would have worked.

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Whether or not something is considered a-ok in universe is not supposed to make it ok to the reader. Just because husband's were considered to have "rights" doesn't mean it's not rape. These books are written for the modern reader and meant to be judged as so.

I agree with all of that. But it works both ways. Just because it is wrong in America does not make it wrong.

He did force her. He had a choice in the matter, she did not. Just because it wasn't his idea doesn't free him from responsibility. He chose her. He chose her pretty face and great title. She was told she would be wedded and bedded no matter what. No death, just wedded and bedded. Cersei made it clear that the KG would beat her into submission, not kill her. There's no way they would allow her to die, they needed her to claim WF.

Yes, he chose her because the alternatives given him by his father were worse. Sansa chose to agree to the marriage because the alternatives given her were worse, yes?

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Force implies coercion. Tyrion had three choices. Sansa, Lollys, or no wife at all. None of the choices were good. He wanted none of them. But he was forced to choose one. Out of all those choices, marrying Sansa was probably the least undesirable to him.

Tyrion was not actively pursing Sansa. Tyrion didn't come up with the idea. His dad put the screws to him. That's coercion. That's force.

Sansa and Lollys were the choices immediately presented by Tywin, who even offered to keep looking for someone else.

By using "none at all" I expressed myself a little imprecise here, so sorry for assuming you knew what exact choice Tywin gave Tyrion.

Again, giving him free choice is not "force" nor "putting the screws to him". Giving him a choice directly contradicts your statement above saying he was forced to marry Sansa. And fyi, it was Sansa's beauty and her claim Tyrion married her for, not due to Tywin's supposed force.

Then you need to wonder who Sansa would probably have been married off to if Tyrion hadn't agreed to marry her.

Lancel, possibly, who doubtlessly was a better option for her.

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I agree with all of that. But it works both ways. Just because it is wrong in America does not make it wrong.

Yes, he chose her because the alternatives given him by his father were worse. Sansa chose to agree to the marriage because the alternatives given her were worse, yes?

Tyrion's choices are a lot better than Sansa's. Sansa has 2 choices:

-go and marry him

-get beaten until she says yes

there was no "no" choice. There was no "death" choice. Cersei clearly states that she WILL be wedded and bedded, no other choice.

Tyrion's choice was:

-hot wife with awesome title

-ugly wife with no title + bastard son

- waiting, potentially forever, for a wife

But wait! Tyrion already had a wife! He already had happiness, but let his father have her gang raped and then he joined in!

Please remind me how he's a misunderstood good guy?

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A Tyrion hate thread? Count me in.

Tywin was right about everything he said about Tyrion being a little waddling ball of hatred, lust and low cunning. Took me a re-read to see how greedy, selfish and spiteful he truly is. Don't get me started on the bullying.

Right up to the minute he killed Tywin he was still calling the Tower of the Hand his chambers. Loves Shae desperately and dearly and then all of a sudden he wants Sansa as well. Despises Tywin even though his father actually does things that shows he cares in his own Tywin Lannister way ("You didn't visit me enough when I was in a coma, daddy!")

I dunno. Maybe you wouldn't have a disgusting scar if you kept your bandages on, Tyrion?

Even though I can't stand the little cretin I won't accuse him of molesting Sansa or raping the whore. He is guilty of raping Tysha... the same girl he's on a quest to "find" because, you know, that'll work. Still pisses me off he killed Tywin when Cersei was the source of all his troubles.

....wow.....

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Tyrion is on a character arc and it is down. He was a better person in GoT than in ADwD, no matter that bad things happened to him in that time - that is a reason not an excuse.

I certainly felt a shift in attitude to him on the forums after that book was published. He was morally comprised in earlier books (not just Sansa but actions like Singer Stew) but I could give him benefit of the doubt because his actions often served purposes like protecting Shae or his family or because he could not see good options. In ADwD he seemed to be operating purely on desire to share his misery. I knew he had turned into a bad guy when he threatened Illyrio's bedwarmer just because he wanted to see her fear, and that makes me a lot less prone to sympathy or empathy when I think about him in the earlier books.

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Giving him a choice directly contradicts your statement above saying he was forced to marry Sansa.

Everyone always has a choice, unless mind control is involved. If I hold a gun to your head and tell you I'm going to shoot you unless give me your credit card number, you still have a choice. Death, or give me the number. Does that mean you were not forced? No it doesn't. Lack of choice does not define coercion or force. The fact that you were made to choose between options you did not like does.

Both Sansa and Tyrion were given options and forced to choose between choices none of which were to their liking or desire.

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Tyrion's choice was:

-hot wife with awesome title

-ugly wife with no title + bastard son

- waiting, potentially forever, for a wife

Yeah. I'd choose the hot wife with awesome title too. Thanks for making his choice clear.

But wait! Tyrion already had a wife! He already had happiness, but let his father have her gang raped and then he joined in!

I don't think Tyrion had much of a choice in that matter either. "Lord Tywin had me go last". He doesn't sound very happy about the whole thing. Maybe that doesn't matter. But I doubt he would have done so if his father hadn't told him to do it.

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I don't mind Tyrion but he has a hell of a way to go before he's a hero in the story. I actually think he will get there because he is GRRM's favourite character and because he has plenty of good traits mixed in with the bad. GRRM often has him thinking nasty things but finding himself doing the opposite of what he is thinking. I think this is to show us that Tyrion wants to be the big scary guy like his father but that is but his true nature. Tyrion is not a character who has to work hard to change but has to stop working so hard to be something he is not. I have a crackpot that the next couple of books are going to be pack-mentality vs individualists and avengers and Tyrion will cause chaos due to wanting vengeance but he will be won over to the cause in the end.

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Everyone always has a choice, unless mind control is involved. If I hold a gun to your head and tell you I'm going to shoot you unless give me your credit card number, you still have a choice. Death, or give me the number. Does that mean you were not forced? No it doesn't. Lack of choice does not define coercion or force. The fact that you were made to choose between options you did not like does.

Both Sansa and Tyrion were given options and forced to choose between choices none of which were to their liking or desire.

In order for you to be able to claim that Tyrion was forced into marrying Sansa it would first require him to not want it. This is evidently not the case, he wants her, both for her looks and her claim.

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Nearly every argument Tyrion haters make, makes me go "wow really?"



As I have stated before, you all condemn a dwarf for not doing the perfect thing at every turn, and for sometimes making decisions that benefit him over others. Yes he has his flaws, everyone has.


You seem to expect him to be totally selfless, and when he proves not to be, you use that to call him egocentric.


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Tyrion is more compassionate IMO. Though it's maybe because he is a dwarf and can understand ,, broken things''.

I don't find him particularly compassionate - sure he had a soft spot for the problems of Bran and Jon (a physical problem and a brother not quite equal to the other brothers) - being quite an asshole in regards to other people and servants, only showing a more agreable behavior when he really need the help of a person.

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Yeah. I'd choose the hot wife with awesome title too. Thanks for making his choice clear.

I don't think Tyrion had much of a choice in that matter either. "Lord Tywin had me go last". He doesn't sound very happy about the whole thing. Maybe that doesn't matter. But I doubt he would have done so if his father hadn't told him to do it.

Yes, because doing what's right isn't easy. Forcing Sansa to marry him was the easy choice, the one he gets the most out of, but he even knows it's wrong, yet he does it anyways. I could sympathize more with his situation if I didn't have Sansa's thoughts to compare it to. Sansa will always outweigh him in this. He gained so by marrying her, while she lost EVERYTHING.

And Tysha? Maybe he couldn't have changed things, but he didn't even try. He just allows his dad to destroy her without putting up any fight. He even participates, which is disgusting. I don't care what you do to me, you could not force me to hurt my loved ones, I'd rather die. Tyrion does nothing to try to stop the situation or even stop himself from having to participate.

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Nearly every argument Tyrion haters make, makes me go "wow really?"

As I have stated before, you all condemn a dwarf for not doing the perfect thing at every turn, and for sometimes making decisions that benefit him over others. Yes he has his flaws, everyone has.

You seem to expect him to be totally selfless, and when he proves not to be, you use that to call him egocentric.

By the latest book his flaw is cruelty for the sake of cruelty. That is not an everyman flaw.

What does him being a dwarf have to do with whether he deserves condemnation anyway?

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Nearly every argument Tyrion haters make, makes me go "wow really?"

As I have stated before, you all condemn a dwarf for not doing the perfect thing at every turn, and for sometimes making decisions that benefit him over others. Yes he has his flaws, everyone has.

You seem to expect him to be totally selfless, and when he proves not to be, you use that to call him egocentric.

There's a huge difference between "not doing the perfect thing at every turn" and "being a multiple murderer and a big time jerk whose main source of pleasure in life is mocking people savagely and laughing at their misery".

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Yes, because doing what's right isn't easy. Forcing Sansa to marry him was the easy choice, the one he gets the most out of, but he even knows it's wrong, yet he does it anyways. I could sympathize more with his situation if I didn't have Sansa's thoughts to compare it to. Sansa will always outweigh him in this. He gained so by marrying her, while she lost EVERYTHING.

And Tysha? Maybe he couldn't have changed things, but he didn't even try. He just allows his dad to destroy her without putting up any fight. He even participates, which is disgusting. I don't care .what you do to me, you could not force me to hurt my loved ones, I'd rather die Tyrion does nothing to try to stop the situation or even stop himself from having to participate.

First off, let's all condemn someone for choosing to marry the pretty girl, who would be married off against her will anyway, above a dim-witted fat girl carrying a raper's bastard. Wow Tyrion you are inhumanly evil.

As to the part I highlighted, I don't know you, but that is a VERY bold claim that you cannot possibly prove. Also would you be willing to "die" as you so boldly claimed for someone you slept with and "loved" for a night who turned out to be a whore? He was heartbroken and there was nothing he could do to "save" her. Him participating was also forced.

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I don't find him particularly compassionate - sure he had a soft spot for the problems of Bran and Jon (a physical problem and a brother not quite equal to the other brothers) - being quite an asshole in regards to other people and servants, only showing a more agreable behavior when he really need the help of a person.

He is not ,, good '' guy for sure and has his flaws or dick moves, but still more campassionate person than tywin , wel it's just impression that i got. Though he gets darker in DwD. However i really love Tyrion with all his flaws.

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