Do you view Daenerys as a dishonorable character?

[Wmarshal]

You don't need to know rocket science to know what you are doing to people is morally wrong, unless you're twisted in the mind.

So what this teenagers had the power to do something yet Dany was absolutely in capable to change her service in Qaarth.

[Mikkel]

You don't need to know rocket science to know what you are doing to people is morally wrong, unless you're twisted in the mind.

1) These people ARE twisted in the mind, they're brought up being told that's the way of the world. Still, you're not wholly wrong, but

2) The vast majority of them have far, far less opportunity to do anything about that Daenerys, and still she doesn't care until the absurd horror of Unsullied training comes to her - and even then, it's the fact that she can't pay for them that leads her down the path she chooses.

[Wmarshal]

I find it unlikely the average Astapori teenager didn't commit much more heinous acts on a daily basis than Joffrey. Joffrey was tame compared to that society.

How do you know this? Dany made no effort to learn how regular ghiscari lived in Astapor.

[Mikkel]

I find it unlikely the average Astapori teenager didn't commit much more heinous acts on a daily basis than Joffrey. Joffrey was tame compared to that society.

Okay now you're being absurd, no doubt some of them were terrible people, but the average teen, worse than Joffrey on a daily basis? Really? If you need to go there to defend Daenerys' actions, then that says it all really.

[Audrey Arryn]

1) These people ARE twisted in the mind, they're brought up being told that's the way of the world. Still, you're not wholly wrong, but

2) The vast majority of them have far, far less opportunity to do anything about that Daenerys, and still she doesn't care until the absurd horror of Unsullied training comes to her - and even then, it's the fact that she can't pay for them that leads her down the path she chooses.

OK so someone that grows in a society where they tell them killing 10 people a day is good gets a free pass when they do it?

Yay!!! for cultural Relativism I guess.

[Nictarion]

Okay now you're being absurd, no doubt some of them were terrible people, but the average teen, worse than Joffrey on a daily basis? Really? If you need to go there to defend Daenerys' actions, then that says it all really.

They have a Plaza of Punishment ffs, Astapor was by far the worst place we've seen.

[Wmarshal]

OK so someone that grows in a society where they tell them killing 10 people a day is good gets a free pass when they do it?

Yay!!! for cultural Relativism I guess.

So if I train children to be assassins you would put them down when they are 13 and up.

[Mikkel]

OK so someone that grows in a society where they tell them killing 10 people a day is good gets a free pass when they do it?

Yay!!! for cultural Relativism I guess.

No, if you bothered to read my post, you'd see that that wasn't my main point

[DarthRevan109]

Ned ? Stannis ?

Stannis burns people at the pyre and kills his brother...

[Wmarshal]

They have a Plaza of Punishment ffs, Astapor was by far the worst place we've seen.

Should all dothraki die then both young and old die for what race they were born to? Was Mirri in the right to kill Rhaego because of destiny his people was setting for him?

[Wmarshal]

Stannis burns people at the pyre and kills his brother...

Stannis looks at evidence and burns criminals he is a hundred percent did the crime. His was prepared to kill kids he was sure was his brother's children.

[Lord Voldemort's Toes]

Explain

It's just simply not a correct attribution of hypocrisy.

Hypocrisy is professing to be or believe one thing, but then doing the direct opposite at the same time.

She would only be hypocritical if she refused to forgive someone who DID change their mind (or, like I said, if she were trading slaves at the same as she said she was against it)...not for failing to give someone the time to change their mind.

You may say it's not nice, or even that it's equivalently evil to kill teenagers as it is to engage in slaving, but it's really not hypocrisy.

[Wmarshal]

It's not the same thing.

Just call her governance of Astapor massive mistake and give it a rest. Trying to condemn her for everything she's ever done is ridiculous. You go to far and end up making no sense.

She also says she was a beggar. She had zero power to do anything. Her time in Qaarth was spent reviving her people and begging various organizations for an army.

Also agreed.

What in my post was not true? When in Council advice attacking the growing threat before it got to big she ignored them.

[Wmarshal]

It's just simply not a correct attribution of hypocrisy.

Hypocrisy is professing to be or believe one thing, but then doing the direct opposite at the same time.

She would only be hypocritical if she refused to forgive someone who DID change their mind (or, like I said, if she were trading slaves at the same as she said she was against it)...not for failing to give someone the time to change their mind.

You may say it's not nice, or even that it's equivalently evil to kill teenagers as it is to engage in slaving, but it's really not hypocrisy.

I see your point and I will leave it at that.

[Direkitten]

No, I don't see her as particularly dishonorable. I see her as well-intentioned but inexperienced and passionate, which has proven to be a volatile combination as she gains power. Good intentions are inadequate to prevent bad outcomes, but at the same time they are important to me when evaluating a character because they indicate room for growth.

I see Dany's potential in terms of being a revolutionary rather than a royal or political figure. She excels at championing a just cause and disrupting the morally reprehensible status quo, but falters in the comprehensive strategy needed to ensure her interventions work out when it comes time to return to matters of everyday ruling. The torture of the wineseller's daughters was her only act that gave me serious pause, if I recall correctly, but I'm paying closer attention to her arc as I reread the books, especially in light of some of the criticism directed toward her in this forum. I am unconvinced that she is primarily responsible for the plight of Astapor and see her intervention on behalf of slaves as a worthy attempt to do the right thing under the circumstances, even though I agree she dealt poorly with its aftermath and is partially responsible in that respect.

Dany is an interesting character to me because of the strength she has shown in overcoming her history of abuse to define herself and attempt to use her newfound power to protect others; the dragons are beside the point. Her passionate nature and lack of political experience complicate her best intentions, so although I think that her original good intentions could lead her to learn from her mistakes and become a better leader, she could just as easily be quite thoroughly corrupted by the end of the series.

[Lord Voldemort's Toes]

No, I don't see her as particularly dishonorable. I see her as well-intentioned but inexperienced and passionate, which has proven to be a volatile combination as she gains power. Good intentions are inadequate to prevent bad outcomes, but at the same time they are important to me when evaluating a character because they indicate room for growth.

I see Dany's potential in terms of being a revolutionary rather than a royal or political figure. She excels at championing a just cause and disrupting the morally reprehensible status quo, but falters in the comprehensive strategy needed to ensure her interventions work out when it comes time to return to matters of everyday ruling. The torture of the wineseller's daughters was her only act that gave me serious pause, if I recall correctly, but I'm paying closer attention to her arc as I reread the books, especially in light of some of the criticism directed toward her in this forum. I am unconvinced that she is primarily responsible for the plight of Astapor and see her intervention on behalf of slaves as a worthy attempt to do the right thing under the circumstances, even though I agree she dealt poorly with its aftermath and is partially responsible in that respect.

Dany is an interesting character to me because of the strength she has shown in overcoming her history of abuse to define herself and attempt to use her newfound power to protect others; the dragons are beside the point. Her passionate nature and lack of political experience complicate her best intentions, so although I think that her original good intentions could lead her to learn from her mistakes and become a better leader, she could just as easily be quite thoroughly corrupted by the end of the series.

Agreed 100%. This is the most objective view I've seen about her.

[tydides]

No, however much I hate her, no. I see Dany as actually very, very honorable. She sticks to her plans and attempts to do what is right, even when it is clouded over by emotion and naivety. In her mind, she doesn't need any justification for the cruel acts she does. In a way, she is sort of like your standard American world police. She thinks she can do anything because of "liberty" even when liberty doesn't really exist anymore. This is similar to the Targaryens thinking they can do whatever, like when Rhaegar runs away with Lyanna to start a war, Aegon brutally murders Rickard and Brandon, and Viserys expecting immediate compensation for the marriage. Dany still fights for Targaryen superiority even though it barely exists anymore. She pounces into carnage, where the slavers she usurps are replaced by even worse rulers like butchers, murderers, etc. She tries to redefine a culture she knows nothing about. But she does it because she really does want to make a change, even when this brutal idealism is misplaced. The US is honorable in its own way, but that doesn't change them from being self righteous blood-soaked bullies.

[WolfOfWinter]

No, she's not honorable. She can't just choose which people she wants to bestow honor on. You don't go around judging whether people are worthy of you behaving honorably towards or not. It doesn't work like that. All the characters in-series who value honor do so regardless of their circumstances or the people they interact with. Ned still behaved honorably towards Cersei even after he believed both Jaime and Cersei had attempted to kill his 7-year-old son. Davos does the honorable thing time and again even though it might jeopardize his life, like helping Edric escape. Honor is in integral part of who both men are. They don't treat it as an on/off switch. So no, I don't believe Dany is honorable.