How would you handle the Sons of the Harpy-situation?

[Jasta11]

Let's take example from Dany's old family, which saw an insurgency that must have been pretty similar; the Faith uprising.

Now, there were two ways this was handled. Maegor the Cruel earned his nickname by going ballistic on the Faith, unleashing dragons, putting up bounties, and generally being unpleasant. This went on and on yet didn't solve the problem.

Then arrive Jahaerys (sp?), who manages to secure a peace through concilliation and compromise, and a lasting one at that.

A quick look to this should provide the answers, methinks. More violence seems useless; the Sons are assuredly a grassroots movement, and you simply cannot beat that with blood. Each person you kill means two more to avenge them. Now, one would think that Dany did compromise, but she didn't seem to put much effort in it, instead she basically waited in her pyramid for Hizdhar to offer solution to her problems. What she lacked is proactivity. She would have needed to make it clear she was better for the people for Meereen than the Harpy. Apple Martini made a pretty good list. I think that Dany entered her ''Breaker of Chains'' persona so much she kinda forgot Slaver's Bay isin,t divided between slaves who love her and rich, powerful, evil Masters who will hate her no matter what. She has failed to win over the freedmen, ''middle-class'' part of the society, which probably wasn't helped by rulings like not giving the lady's house back. Not being able to keep her dragons under control was also a big mistake.

Overall, however, I think Dany doomed herself when she entered the city. She should either have been almost entirely benelovent and try to win as much people over as possible, or go balls-out and attempt to massacre as many of the rich Masters as possible before they can hide in their pyramid, destroying the problem before it can take root. But she first demonstrated she didn,t much care about justice when she ordered arbitrary crucifixions, and then she did inept half-measures like taking hostages she wouldn't kill. At that moment, she revealed herself to be too dangerous to be tractable, yet too weak to be really willing to face her opposition. Basically, she was most probably seen as a big bully, with her dragons and castrated supermen doing everything for her.

[Tywin Smokin a Blunt]

I would have do what my boy daario wanted. Have that dinner, and then just start killing motherfuckers. No mercy.

E-Ro, I dont know if we've ever been in such complete agreement. Going into that portion of Dance that is exactly what I hoped for and expected to happen and when it didnt, I all but gave up on Dany as a character.

[Steelcan]

Red Wedding the leaders, take the rest as hostages

If she wants to be ruthless she needs to go the whole way

[The Mountain That Rhymes]

Burn Mereen to the ground, salt the earth, and start out for Westeros. Fuck 'em.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

Execute Hizdahr and the Green Grace and/or leave and get to Westeros already.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Let's take example from Dany's old family, which saw an insurgency that must have been pretty similar; the Faith uprising.

Now, there were two ways this was handled. Maegor the Cruel earned his nickname by going ballistic on the Faith, unleashing dragons, putting up bounties, and generally being unpleasant. This went on and on yet didn't solve the problem.

Then arrive Jahaerys (sp?), who manages to secure a peace through concilliation and compromise, and a lasting one at that.

A quick look to this should provide the answers, methinks. More violence seems useless; the Sons are assuredly a grassroots movement, and you simply cannot beat that with blood. Each person you kill means two more to avenge them. Now, one would think that Dany did compromise, but she didn't seem to put much effort in it, instead she basically waited in her pyramid for Hizdhar to offer solution to her problems. What she lacked is proactivity. She would have needed to make it clear she was better for the people for Meereen than the Harpy. Apple Martini made a pretty good list. I think that Dany entered her ''Breaker of Chains'' persona so much she kinda forgot Slaver's Bay isin,t divided between slaves who love her and rich, powerful, evil Masters who will hate her no matter what. She has failed to win over the freedmen, ''middle-class'' part of the society, which probably wasn't helped by rulings like not giving the lady's house back. Not being able to keep her dragons under control was also a big mistake.

Overall, however, I think Dany doomed herself when she entered the city. She should either have been almost entirely benelovent and try to win as much people over as possible, or go balls-out and attempt to massacre as many of the rich Masters as possible before they can hide in their pyramid, destroying the problem before it can take root. But she first demonstrated she didn,t much care about justice when she ordered arbitrary crucifixions, and then she did inept half-measures like taking hostages she wouldn't kill. At that moment, she revealed herself to be too dangerous to be tractable, yet too weak to be really willing to face her opposition. Basically, she was most probably seen as a big bully, with her dragons and castrated supermen doing everything for her.

I agree with this. The Maegor/Jaehaerys example with the Faith is a good one. Not only is Maegor remembered hatefully, he didn't even really accomplish what he wanted. Meanwhile, Jaehaerys used soft power, got the desired result and is still remembered well.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Burn Mereen to the ground, salt the earth, and start out for Westeros. Fuck 'em.

And what about the freed slaves there and the non-slaving free men? Fuck them too?

For talking a big game about Dany's abolitionist movement, a lot of you sure are eager to see the people she freed end up dead.

[adiman83]

I concur, but there in lies the question how can you achieve peace when their only goal would seem to be removing Dany from power? What concessions without compromising everything she believes in. The brutal destruction of some of the leading houses, likely houses that the harpies have rallied around could shatter the morale of the movement or cause enough fear for them to relent. If the middle class are carrying out the orders of the upper nobles then the loss of that trickle down command could send them into disarray, other leading houses may retract support for the movement through fear etc or alternatively as you say it may strengthen their resolve.

However I just don't really see any economic or political concessions that Dany can make without reintroducing slavery proper that would satiate the Sons enough to make them halt the violence.

The only economic solution to the problem might be permanently reopening the fighting pits. I think this is the only way to make the city obscenely rich once again since she was told more than once about the taxes they could collect from that. If that wouldn't make them rich and bring peace at least it would bring them enough income to live until they can get some agricultural trading started. The right amount of gold flowing back to the vaults of the nobles might convince the Sons to change their ways.

If that doesn't work, completely wipe out House Reyne style the three most powerful Meereen families and confiscate their fortunes starting with Loraq. And by wipe out I mean kill them all publicly then demolish their pyramids as if they were never there. Only then maybe she could adopt the Harpy as her symbol together with the dragon and try to win over the people.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

I agree with this. The Maegor/Jaehaerys example with the Faith is a good one. Not only is Maegor remembered hatefully, he didn't even really accomplish what he wanted. Meanwhile, Jaehaerys used soft power, got the desired result and is still remembered well.

One could say that without Maegor´s brutality, Jaehaerys would never be able to reach peace the way he did. If you think about it, Jaehaerys never compromised anything. He gave nothing to the faith, only pardons. If the Faith agreed to lose all their political power, and demilitarize, it’s because they were already beaten.

I think Maegor strategy of offering bounties to local lords/knights was a smart way to outsource the war to more able forces. At the same time aligned the interests of the Iron throne with those of local lords that most likely felt threatened by the faith militant.

Did they have some role of imparting justice, the way they are now judging the queens?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

One would say that without Maegor´s brutality, Jaehaerys would never be able to reach peace the way he did. If you think about it, Jaehaerys never compromised anything. He gave nothing to the faith, only pardons. If the Faith agreed to lose all their political power, and demilitarize, it’s because they were already beaten.

I think Maegor strategy of offering bounties to local lords/knights was a smart way to outsource the war to more able forces. At the same time aligned the interests of the Iron throne with those of local lords that most likely felt threatened by the faith militant.

Did they have some role of imparting justice, the way they are now judging the queens?

If Maegor's hard power alone had been enough to defeat the Faith, they would have already been a non-factor when Jaehaerys showed up.

[LordFirkraag]

For talking a big game about Dany's abolitionist movement, a lot of you sure are eager to see the people she freed end up dead.

Remember, they're not people: They're fictional people.

[The Mountain That Rhymes]

And what about the freed slaves there and the non-slaving free men? Fuck them too?

For talking a big game about Dany's abolitionist movement, a lot of you sure are eager to see the people she freed end up dead.

They can come with if they want. I would need arrow fodder when storming every slave city from Tolos to Tyrosh.

Like a great host of locusts we would wash across the land. Glorious.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

If Maegor's hard power alone had been enough to defeat the Faith, they would have already been a non-factor when Jaehaerys showed up.

Absolutely.. Asymetric warfare requires policy mix. That i think is quite clear.

But again, its not just about diplomacy and finding a middle ground. At least not in the case of Jaehaerys that gave them nothing. just pardons.

Ending targaryen polygamy? they probably didn´t even care. What they did care about was the political power that comes with having an army of religious fanatics.. And they lost that.

Maegor´s brutality and Jaehaerys diplomacy both have some role to play.. of course only jaehaerys is remembered..

[Myrish Swamp Thing]

The Rains of Meereen. At least I'd be very tempted to it.

[Neilos]

Gah! I might think Dany's mishandled the situation, but I'd far rather her way than the "Maegor the Cruel" route so many peeps in here are advocating.

Dany didn't know best, but she knew better than that.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Gah! I might think Dany's mishandled the situation, but I'd far rather her way than the "Maegor the Cruel" route so many peeps in here are advocating.

Dany didn't know best, but she knew better than that.

Agreed. She wasn't as firm as she needed to be (mostly a side effect of blowing her advantages with the hostages), but I have to give her some credit for making some attempt. This "burn it all down" attitude accomplishes nothing and frankly I'm glad the people advocating it aren't in any position of authority.

[The Mountain That Rhymes]

Gah! I might think Dany's mishandled the situation, but I'd far rather her way than the "Maegor the Cruel" route so many peeps in here are advocating.

Dany didn't know best, but she knew better than that.

Well of course. The Maegor the Cruel route would presumably be 'fail terribly and get murdered by a chair'.

[Tywin Smokin a Blunt]

Let's take example from Dany's old family, which saw an insurgency that must have been pretty similar; the Faith uprising.

Now, there were two ways this was handled. Maegor the Cruel earned his nickname by going ballistic on the Faith, unleashing dragons, putting up bounties, and generally being unpleasant. This went on and on yet didn't solve the problem.

Then arrive Jahaerys (sp?), who manages to secure a peace through concilliation and compromise, and a lasting one at that.

A quick look to this should provide the answers, methinks. More violence seems useless; the Sons are assuredly a grassroots movement, and you simply cannot beat that with blood. Each person you kill means two more to avenge them. Now, one would think that Dany did compromise, but she didn't seem to put much effort in it, instead she basically waited in her pyramid for Hizdhar to offer solution to her problems. What she lacked is proactivity. She would have needed to make it clear she was better for the people for Meereen than the Harpy. Apple Martini made a pretty good list. I think that Dany entered her ''Breaker of Chains'' persona so much she kinda forgot Slaver's Bay isin,t divided between slaves who love her and rich, powerful, evil Masters who will hate her no matter what. She has failed to win over the freedmen, ''middle-class'' part of the society, which probably wasn't helped by rulings like not giving the lady's house back. Not being able to keep her dragons under control was also a big mistake.

Overall, however, I think Dany doomed herself when she entered the city. She should either have been almost entirely benelovent and try to win as much people over as possible, or go balls-out and attempt to massacre as many of the rich Masters as possible before they can hide in their pyramid, destroying the problem before it can take root. But she first demonstrated she didn,t much care about justice when she ordered arbitrary crucifixions, and then she did inept half-measures like taking hostages she wouldn't kill. At that moment, she revealed herself to be too dangerous to be tractable, yet too weak to be really willing to face her opposition. Basically, she was most probably seen as a big bully, with her dragons and castrated supermen doing everything for her.

I disagree with the idea that the Sons of the Harpy are a grassroots movement. They strike me more as Astro-turf, meaning organized by the rich and formerly powerful of the city, but designed to look like a popular uprising. I think its clear that the Green Grace is the Harpy, but im sure she speaks for all of Meereen's wealthy families, and the attacks serve only their interest, not the common people. When people who have nothing rise up, the violence is always accompanied by looting, and to my memory there is none of that going on. The attacks are solely designed to weaken Dany's hold on the city.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Well of course. The Maegor the Cruel route would presumably be 'fail terribly and get murdered by a chair'.

And why is Maegor the Cruel considered a failure? (The hint is in the "cruel" part.)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I disagree with the idea that the Sons of the Harpy are a grassroots movement. They strike me more as Astro-turf, meaning organized by the rich and formerly powerful of the city, but designed to look like a popular uprising. I think its clear that the Green Grace is the Harpy, but im sure she speaks for all of Meereen's wealthy families, and the attacks serve only their interest, not the common people. When people who have nothing rise up, the violence is always accompanied by looting, and to my memory there is none of that going on. The attacks are solely designed to weaken Dany's hold on the city.

I still think that if the Harpy didn't have some sizable grass-roots support, someone, maybe a lot of someones, would have narced on them by now. That Dany gets stonewalled during every attempt she makes to investigate indicates that there's some layer of populist protection there. The nobles also have only a fraction of the power they once did. If the general population actually saw the Harpy as a negative, they would be in a position to do something about it, either by turning them in to Dany or confronting them by force. Yet, nothing.