(Major ASOS, Show and Foreshadowing Spoilers) Season 4 Chronology: Jon

[Mr Smith]

In the wake of last night's Foreshadowing, some of the new footage has given rise to the theory that Jon will be elected as Lord Commander BEFORE the battle of the wall. I wasn't convinced the first time, but I rewatched the scenes in question, and I'm starting to think it doesn't sound implausible. So I thought we might get a discussion going. Here are my thoughts:

Pro's:

Given that we know the battle of the wall is 4x09, that only gives the show one more episode to cover all of Stannis's offer to Jon, Night's Watch politics, Sam's gambit, and finally Jon's election. Having him elected earlier will avoid a repeat of the cramped, rushed shambles that was 3x10.

There's some theatrical value in having Jon elected shortly before the battle, and then having him officially leading the Night's Watch into the fray.

It adds another twist to Stannis's offer.

Con's:

One of the major reasons Sam could sell Jon as a candidate to Cotter Pyke and Dennis Mallister was his involvement in the battle of the wall. Reversing the order detracts from the merits of both events, and could have a similar effect to that of Catelyn releasing Jaime before she believed Bran and Rickon were dead.

"The wall is yours Jon" - the effect of this quote is detracted, and it may even be cut.

It doesn't give time to develop Jon's characteristics as a leader, and all in all seems just a little too easy.

I hope they don't do it, but they've made changes like this before, so we may just have to prepare ourselves for the possibility.

[Blutraven]

They don't need to show everything with Jon's election, just show that Janos is winning, Sam puts Jon's name in, Jon wins.

[Queen of Whores]

I really don't understand why Jon would ever be elected LC before the battle. What exactly has he done to merit this? Even after he led the defence of the Wall in the book, most people still didn't want him as LC.

[Mr Smith]

I really don't understand why Jon would ever be elected LC before the battle. What exactly has he done to merit this? Even after he led the defence of the Wall in the book, most people still didn't want him as LC.

Yeah I don't think its a good idea either, I'm going on the impression I and other people got from some of the bits shown in the foreshadowing. But as I said, they did a similar thing with Catelyn, so...

[Nezzer]

I doubt it. In the trailer we see Alliser Throne giving a speech, so I bet he will still be leading the Watch in the battle.

[Ser Carson]

He could be elected because he defended Castle Black from the South. Then they add a second battle between the wildings and the NW and when they are about to lose Stannis comes. So instead Janos sending Jon to assassinate Mance he is elected LoC and continues fighting.

[Wun Wun's Wife]

I hope they don't (well, didn't) do that. Stannis offering Jon Winterfell would lose its impact if Jon has already been elected LC. I would love if they ended with the cliffhanger of Stannis offering Jon Winterfell, then had the election of the LC at the beginning of Season 5.

[Nezzer]

I hope they don't (well, didn't) do that. Stannis offering Jon Winterfell would lose its impact if Jon has already been elected LC. I would love if they ended with the cliffhanger of Stannis offering Jon Winterfell, then had the election of the LC at the beginning of Season 5.

That's what I'm hoping for as well. There's also not enough time for the election with the battle taking place in episode 9. Stannis's offer to legitimize Jon should be the last scene of the Wall storyline, leaving Jon's answer to season 5.

[Mr Smith]

That's what I'm hoping for as well. There's also not enough time for the election with the battle taking place in episode 9. Stannis's offer to legitimize Jon should be the last scene of the Wall storyline, leaving Jon's answer to season 5.

Really? No election to LC this season? I'd have to say I'd feel a bit robbed if they did it this way, but there's merit to it I suppose (not least, slowing down Jon's storyline so that they don't try and cramp all his ADWD material into one season). And as I mentioned in the OP, the alternative could be another rushed season finale, so it's possible I suppose.

[DaveyJoe]

Maybe he'll win support after successfully leading a raid on Craster's Keep and bringing justice to the mutineers. Or maybe they'll just do the election in the finale, it doesn't need to be that convoluted.

[AlpenglowMemories]

I wouldn't necessarily mind Jon being elected before the battle, if only because doing it in episode 10 will likely feel cramped and rushed, but they need to set it up right by giving Jon some decent leadership credentials beforehand. The attack on Craster's Keep could work towards this, but he'd also need to show some sort of intelligent insight into the politics of the wall and contribute somewhat to the planning and defences against the Wildling attack. I'm guessing the rescue mission will take place around episode 5 or 6.

[DaveyJoe]

Why can't the election itself be a season long storyline? They could have Slynt electioneering early in the season with a few voting sessions failing to elect somebody, then Jon could win some favor after the raid on Craster's Keep, and Sam could start talking to influential members around episode 7-8, then the battle puts the election on hold. After Jon's leadership in battle, he wins the election in episode 10 where Stannis offers him Winterfell.

[The Mountain That Posts]

Yeah I don't think its a good idea either, I'm going on the impression I and other people got from some of the bits shown in the foreshadowing. But as I said, they did a similar thing with Catelyn, so...

Yeah and even everyone I know who's unsullied thought the Cat thing was stupid as fuck, and would've made more sense for her to think Bran/Rickon were dead BEFORE Blackwater. Oh well.

[AlpenglowMemories]

Why can't the election itself be a season long storyline? They could have Slynt electioneering early in the season with a few voting sessions failing to elect somebody, then Jon could win some favor after the raid on Craster's Keep, and Sam could start talking to influential members around episode 7-8, then the battle puts the election on hold. After Jon's leadership in battle, he wins the election in episode 10 where Stannis offers him Winterfell.

That could work. The main thing I want though is for Jon, as a protagonist, to take some agency in getting elected. It was always an annoyance for me that the election win had nothing to do with him, it'd be nice if Jon actually sought leadership, maybe with some early season encouragement from Sam.

[oprahnoodlemantra]

S04E09 should end with Stannis's offer to Jon. They'll have plenty of time in the last episode to cover the election.

[binhorde]

If he is elected LC before the battle this eliminates most of the story, does it not?

I don't think they'd put the LC in an ice cell and the other members of the Watch be okay with it. So I don't know how they can do that part of his story. And, I guess they can still have Stannis make the offer to Jon, but the answer seems pretty simple then. He'd say no because he's LC. Eliminates the suspense and real difficulty Jon had in making the decision.

They would be able to keep the Jon ride outs to Mance part though. Just not the ice cell, suicide mission part of it. But even that would seem odd. Because the point of that was the hope that Mance would kill Jon, so they sent him out. I would assume this would still be of concern so, why would the other members of the Watch want their LC to ride out to meet with Mance alone? So that too has it's problems.

If they make him LC before the battle, they basically change his entire second half of ASOS story.

[Blutraven]

Why can't the election itself be a season long storyline? They could have Slynt electioneering early in the season with a few voting sessions failing to elect somebody, then Jon could win some favor after the raid on Craster's Keep, and Sam could start talking to influential members around episode 7-8, then the battle puts the election on hold. After Jon's leadership in battle, he wins the election in episode 10 where Stannis offers him Winterfell.

I like that, they could have it be a race between Slynt and Thorne (judging by the trailer he'll be doing some leading), Thorne then dies at some point so it looks like Slynt will win, then Sam persuades people to vote for Jon.

That could work. The main thing I want though is for Jon, as a protagonist, to take some agency in getting elected. It was always an annoyance for me that the election win had nothing to do with him, it'd be nice if Jon actually sought leadership, maybe with some early season encouragement from Sam.

I liked how it happened in the books, it mirrors how Jon gets Sam out of training.

[titanx5]

I hope they don't (well, didn't) do that. Stannis offering Jon Winterfell would lose its impact if Jon has already been elected LC. I would love if they ended with the cliffhanger of Stannis offering Jon Winterfell, then had the election of the LC at the beginning of Season 5.

that would be great, but there are a few things that they are already doing differently

1) What appears to be in the trailer is the NW attacking the mutineers at Crasters Keep, now Thorne could be getting people ready to attack Crasters Keep and prove Jons loyalty then

2) Jon could be put immediately in ice cell by Thorne and Slynt after recovering, but doubt it

3) Now Jon could take control as temporary LC and attack Crasters Keep, however when he returns he could be put in ice cell by Thorne and Slynt, and perhaps with a bit of working from Sam and the others like Green,etc is released for s04e09.

4) Thorne could die at Crasters Keep by the mutineers and once they return Jon elected as LC for the battle of the wall, and Slynt just remains a constant pest to Jon's LC rule and gets beheaded early like s05e03 or so

Obviously this is all speculation, just ideas of how they could perhaps make him LC before the battle

[Lord of the Twins]

I like that, they could have it be a race between Slynt and Thorne (judging by the trailer he'll be doing some leading), Thorne then dies at some point so it looks like Slynt will win, then Sam persuades people to vote for Jon.

I don't entirely agree with this. I'd prefer the race to more mirror Denys Mallister and Cotter Pyke, in that everyone is split between the two, and Slynt slowly is gaining more, like he is in the book. Also, since Foreshadowing confirmed Grenn will lead the fight against the Mag the Mighty, I'd rather see Alliser survive and continue a role in the night's watch.

[Blutraven]

I don't entirely agree with this. I'd prefer the race to more mirror Denys Mallister and Cotter Pyke, in that everyone is split between the two, and Slynt slowly is gaining more, like he is in the book. Also, since Foreshadowing confirmed Grenn will lead the fight against the Mag the Mighty, I'd rather see Alliser survive and continue a role in the night's watch.

I'd prefer that too, but I doubt they've cast Denys Mallister or Cotter Pyke for this season (or will at all), this would be a good way to preserve the race without having to cast new people.