Lord Reaver Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Chronology_Timeline_and_Catelyn The "It should have been you" was a very special case. Thank you for the link. Well, there is that, then. In that case, I think she gets a little too much criticism for her treatment then. Asking her to treat Jon like her own kids is...asking a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Catelyn's hatred towards Jon was a problem. She should have aimed it at Ned. Her main issue was that Jon was raised at WF, but if she had the moral courage, she'd have 0 problems with Jon and blamed it all on Ned. I agree, but that is what bullies do. They turn to the weak one not someone who can beat them. Catelyn should have never hated Jon (Who did nothing wrong other than exist). It should have been directed towards Ned, but that would have led to a cold and loveless marriage. She chose to direct her anger at Jon instead. Agree. So maybe it's just because I'm female with a mothering instinct that I actually like Cat more than other people seem to. But I disagree on that. How could a mother emotionally abuse an orphan motherless child and still claim that she was a good person? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaleTheGuard Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 My understanding that Catelyn was putting her faith in Tyrion, not Jaime. Tyrion had sworn before the court to exchange the Stark girls for Jaime (which actually was a lie, but Catelyn couldn't know that); Catelyn was starting to warm on Tyrion anyway during their excursion to the Vale, since Tyrion had saved her life and seemed like a decent guy. Murder? No way. With an extreme emotional disturbance defense the Stark family attorneys could probably plead it down to manslaughter, maybe even second-degree manslaughter. She would serve less than two years in jail.I think people aren't harsh enough on Hoster Tully. In the bad father Olympics he doesn't come close to competing with the Tywins, the Randylls, or the Crasters but there's a special place in Hell for what he did to Lysa. Craster is pretty much the Michael Phelps and/or USA Basketball Team of the Bad Father Olympics, if you ask me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harry_dresden Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Thank you for the link. Well, there is that, then. In that case, I think she gets a little too much criticism for her treatment then. Asking her to treat Jon like her own kids is...asking a lot. I am not asking for her to treat Jon like she does her children. Just with some common courtesy at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 I love Edmure, Catelyn is a well written character who made her share of mistakes just like everybody else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 I agree, but that is what bullies do. They turn to the weak one not someone who can beat them. Agree. But I disagree on that. How could a mother emotionally abuse an orphan motherless child and still claim that she was a good person? You are just too much. This after arguing in the other thread what a great guy Robert was - hilarious double standards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Reaver Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 My understanding that Catelyn was putting her faith in Tyrion, not Jaime. Tyrion had sworn before the court to exchange the Stark girls for Jaime (which actually was a lie, but Catelyn couldn't know that); Catelyn was starting to warm on Tyrion anyway during their excursion to the Vale, since Tyrion had saved her life and seemed like a decent guy. She puts her faith on Jaime even mentioning how he escaped. He could just as easily say he escaped through his own means. Tyrion swears before Lysa, if memory serves. In a situation where he is at her mercy. It's not an oath I personally would put that kind of stock in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Reaver Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 I am not asking for her to treat Jon like she does her children. Just with some common courtesy at least. And from the SSM you just linked to, she did. Being cold and distant is still within "common courtesy" in my book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 - More than welcome to hate Jon, but she should do it in her own time and recognise that actually, being innocent, he doesn't deserve to be treated badly. Agree, it's understandable to be hurt and feel bad but she should be angry with Ned not Jon. It was Ned who wronged her not Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cocoalover1956 Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 I agree, but that is what bullies do. They turn to the weak one not someone who can beat them. Agree. But I disagree on that. How could a mother emotionally abuse an orphan motherless child and still claim that she was a good person? Cat didn't like Jon and never really accepted him, but to say she abused him is a bit much. And being a mother doesn't mean she has to love for every child in her domain. It would be nice, but she's not morally obligated to love Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harry_dresden Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 And from the SSM you just linked to, she did. Being cold and distant is still within "common courtesy" in my book. She was so courteous that Jon often felt as though Cat grudged every bite of food. Somehow...I think its a stretch in any form to say it is common courtesy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UVA Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Agree, it's understandable to be hurt and feel bad but she should be angry with Ned not Jon. It was Ned who wronged her not Jon. Kind of like Robert right? Cat "felt hurt and bad" about having her husband's infidelity shoved in her face every day. Robert was depressed, upset that the life he thought he'd have with Lyanna was wrongfully taken from him; understandable then that he would be OK upon seeing the mutilated bodies of babies murdered in his name. Likewise, understandable then that Cat gives Jon cold stares and has to live with this unusual situation where a bastard is raised with a man's trueborn children. Amirite, like Robert we should use more medieval standards to judge her here. The modern concept of step mother doesn't really apply here so to expect her to embrace Jon as son is unreasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harry_dresden Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 It isn't fair to criticise her for something that is beyond her power. Its beyond her power to suck it up and either resent Ned for it or just get over it completely? No, she made a choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Cat didn't like Jon and never really accepted him, but to say she abused him is a bit much. And being a mother doesn't mean she has to love for every child in her domain. It would be nice, but she's not morally obligated to love Jon. I don't mean physically or verbally but emotionally. I never said anything about loving him, I said that she should deal with the one who wronged her Ned not Jon. It isn't fair to criticise her for something that is beyond her power. She can't help hating Jon, he is the symbol of her husbands supposed faithlessness. I agree what I am saying is that she should blame Ned not Jon. She was so courteous that Jon often felt as though Cat grudged every bite of food. Somehow...I think its a stretch in any form to say it is common courtesy Agree but around here people will tell you that Jon didn't knew what he felt, only Cat is allowed to do so. Kind of like Robert right? Cat "felt hurt and bad" about having her husband's infidelity shoved in her face every day. Robert was depressed, upset that the life he thought he'd have with Lyanna was wrongfully taken from him; understandable then that he would be OK upon seeing the mutilated bodies of babies murdered in his name. Likewise, understandable then that Cat gives Jon cold stares and has to live with this unusual situation where a bastard is raised with a man's trueborn children. Amirite, like Robert we should use more medieval standards to judge her here. The modern concept of step mother doesn't really apply here so to expect her to embrace Jon as son is unreasonable. What did Robert have to do here? Seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UVA Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 I don't mean physically or verbally but emotionally. I never said anything about loving him, I said that she should deal with the one who wronged her Ned not Jon. I agree what I am saying is that she should blame Ned not Jon. Agree but around here people will tell you that Jon didn't knew what he felt, only Cat is allowed to do so. What did Robert have to do here? Seriously. Ah, just using the same standards you apply to excuse Robert's condoning of child murder. Your views in this regard are so inconsistent, and appalling to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Ah, just using the same standards you apply to excuse Robert's condoning of child murder. Your views in this regard are so inconsistent, and appalling to me. And the moment that Robert would kill a child you would be correct. Those are my views as the song says σε όποιον αρέσουμε για τους άλλους δεν θα μπορέσουμε The end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harry_dresden Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Sorry, but if you really think it's that easy to just stop hating something/someone then you're a fool. You can't choose to be calm when you're angry anymore than you can choose to be happy when you're depressed. It's within her power to stop treating Jon badly, but it isn't fair to criticise someone for their emotions. She's had over a decade to do it. At some point she needs to let go. That's like saying, that its not okay to criticize Cersei for not being able to get over certain slights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harry_dresden Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Any petty slights in mind? Doesn't matter anyway, because it's nothing like that. Robert whispering Lyanna is one. The CR twins(I believe the story). Regardless, criticizing Cat for hating Jon Snow is totally legit. She has a tendency to aim towards the weak See: Jinglebell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 True, yes. I don't think it's fair to criticise her for hating Jon though. And if she had stayed there no one would have said anything about her when it comes to Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jet199 Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Having seen someone in an emotionally abusive relationship I have to say that how Cat treats Jon is miles off that. An emotionally abusive person will take over the other person's life and make them feel like they are constantly walking on egg shells. The abused person will spend their whole time trying to please their abuser. People here seem to be using that term like a teenager having a tantrum might before threatening to call social services, saying they wished they were dead and stomping up to their room and slamming the door. Maybe because Jon is a teenager and we are seeing it through his eyes or maybe people like to over dramatise their lives and give a label to their own difficult relationships. Being distant is not emotionally abusive, it may seem so when we are younger because children are wired up to demand attention all the time but they do not need to be the centre of the universe. In the same way a child may be wired up to eat as much sweet stuff as they can but that doesn't mean a parent should feed them nothing but chocolate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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