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Werthead

GOODKIND VI: THE PHANTOM MENACING

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Ok, this is a genuine question. I really don't get it. Obviously I must be too stupid or possibly too immature. I always thought of rage as being a negative emotion. Am I completely missing TG's point? I was already starting to notice the pattern before today's quote but that has just confirmed it - Richard only EVER does ANYTHING when he's angry. I mean, what's the point in that? Who the hell keeps any kind of clarity when they have flown into a rage about something? Is that not why it is often referred to as a 'blind rage'? Why is it in TG world that rage = good?

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Actually he used the other side of the blade to kill out of love once, but it hurt him so much he won't do it again :D

Me, I reckon he's angry because he never sleeps or eats enough :lol:

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Evil unchallenged was evil sanctioned. Destroying evil was really a celebration of the value of life, made real by destroying those who existed to deny others their life.

I can’t think of a better justification for these Goodkind threads, well spoken Terry (BBHN = Blessed Be His Name)

ETA: Isn't that surrendering reason and humanity to the reptilian, animalistic portion of the brain. It seems to be a bit of a contradiction to embrace ones tendencies towards base insticts to achieve higher awareness.

What I’ve been able to deduce is that Richard, as the Seeker, and possibly Kahlen, as the Mother Confessor, are outside the laws of men and wizards. In Faith of the Fallen there is a paragraph that describes how the First Wizard, currently Zedd, watches someone for awhile to pick someone for the ultimate duty.

So I don’t think it is a contradiction that Richard doesn’t follow the Wizard’s Rules. He is not bound to the same laws as everyone else. I do think the entire concept of Richard is a contradiction to Goodkind’s overall philosophy. He keeps harping on how Freedom and Life or the only things of value. Then he creates this person (or two if Kahlan can also blow off the laws that rule everyone else) to slap the other 99.99999 percent of humans down if they don’t follow Goodkind’s errr.. Richard’s philosophy.

Which, if I got that right, calls into question Goodkind’s statement that he believes in the “nobility of the human soul†if he creates these two people. I think he puts more emphasis on his belief that people are stupid and needs a strong traditional family unit to keep the rest of use children in line.

Just before he reached the brink of the clearing, Richard finally drew his sword. The singular sound of freeing the blade sent the cutting ring of steel through the damp woodland, ending the silence.

Minor bitch, I can never get my sword’s to make a “cutting ring†when I draw it from their scabbard, like they do in the movies. I also try not to cut anything when I first draw it.

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I've got to believe that the words wouldn't last for too long. Mental illness seems to blunt or in some cases render the person all but immune to Kellhus' mind games.

And then Richard's thing would rise...and kick Kellhus in the jaw? (well there's a revenge Cnaiur never achieved, despite his thi...oh, never mind. I feel dirty. :o )

Seriously, the two of them would stand on opposite mountaintops -- or maybe next to statues of themselves -- and pontificate. Richard would grip his sword, clench his jaw, and rail about Free Will for five pages. Kellhus would counter by looking at the haloes around his hands, muse about the nature of freedom for eight or nine pages, and then befriend Betty the Goat, Gratch the Gar, Kahlan, Zedd and the Chicken that was Evil Manifest, and manipulate them to turn on Richard. (Kahlan, of course, would join Esmi in Prophet concubinage. As QotD has shown, she's more than up to the task.)

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Which, if I got that right, calls into question Goodkind’s statement that he believes in the “nobility of the human soul†if he creates these two people. I think he puts more emphasis on his belief that people are stupid and needs a strong traditional family unit to keep the rest of use children in line.

Perhaps for Terry the nobility of the human soul is in embracing its base functions and ignoring all those high cognigtive ones. The very vices of the old philsophies become the morals of the new? Richard is slowly freed from his belief that taking life is something not to be done, and abandons balancing it but not eating meat, through embaracing his rage. Kahalan learns that if all else is gone, sex is still there as a comfort. Zed eats all the food that can be consumed. Nicci finds her enlightenment through her envy of Richards clarity. Richard wins his freedom by somehow building a vast fortune through illeagal trading.

It is a very strange type of thinking.

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And something I found entertaining on the sample chapter for Faith of the Fallen:

I love that they say "notable for its engaging secondary characters" - it suggests that the primary characters aren't engaging - and they mention the chicken that is not a chicken. They didn't have the moral clarity to understand that it wasn't "sly wit", but Goodkind making a legitimate point about the lack of nobility of the chicken spirit.

I was also highly amused by the fact that they commented on the chicken that is not a chicken. Maybe we're just all missing the point and it is in fact an elaborate joke? Ooh, maybe TG is actually a pseudonym for Douglas Adams. Oh wait, he's dead. Damn.

And I like the idea of reading the QotD with the proper mood and intonation, but my idea was actually to be able to read it with a completely straight face. And so I think that being completely rapt and sexually aroused by the moral clarity revealed unto us would probably not be significantly more appropriate than fits of giggles and laughter.

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There is no way I am going to transcribe any more of that book after the ordeal I went through with the food sex scene. Instead, I will offer those lucky enough not to have read the book a quick synopsis like I did with Goodkind's nipple magic.

OMG I just read the food sex and nipple magic scenes :rofl::rofl::rofl: Thanks, you owe me a new keyboard, I snorted my coffee all over it. I laughed, everyone else laughed. And I can't believe I'm using the words 'nipple magic'. :rofl:

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OMG I just read the food sex and nipple magic scenes :rofl::rofl::rofl: Thanks, you owe me a new keyboard, I snorted my coffee all over it. I laughed, everyone else laughed. And I can't believe I'm using the words 'nipple magic'. :rofl:

If you had read these threads more carefully, you would know that snorting coffee all over your keyboard and computer is a hazard you have to deal with if you're going to deal with the words of TG :)

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Richard is slowly freed from his belief that taking life is something not to be done, and abandons balancing it but not eating meat, through embaracing his rage.

You're right about that. As a War Wizard, Richard ends up doing a lot of killing, and to balance this he doesn't eat meat or cheese, the taste makes him sick to his stomach. This reminded me of something sufficiently stupid to make a Terry Goodkind Quote of the Day Double Whammy.

He tore off a strip of dried venison and chewed as he watched Jennsen, Tom, Owen, Marilee, Anson, and a small group of the men finally emerge through the gates an make their way across the waving field of waist-high green grass.

"I'm hungry," Kahlan said. "Can I have some?"

"Sure." Richard pulled strips of the meat from his pack, stood, and handed a piece to both Kahlan and Cara.

"Lord Rahl," Anson said, waving, as the group joined Richard, Kahlan, and Cara in the shade of the oaks, "we wanted to come out to say good-bye and see you off. Maybe we will walk with you toward the pass?"

Richard swallowed. "We'd like that."

Owen frowned. "Lord Rahl, why are you eating meat? You just healed your gift. Won't you harm your balance?"

Richard smiled. "No. You see, incorrectly trying to apply a false notion of balance was what caused the problem I was having with my gift."

Owen looked puzzled. <The Mad Moose looked puzzled as well> "What do you mean? You said that you must not eat meat as the balance to the killing you sometimes must do. <Sometimes?!?!> After the battle at the fortification, don't you need to balance your gift all the more"

Richard took a deep breath and let it out slowly as he gazed out over the mountains.

"You see, the thing is," Richard said, "I owe you all an apology. You all listened to me, but I didn't listen to myself.

"Kaja-Rang <A wizard from ancient times, as opposed to Kajagoogoo, a lame 80's band> tried to help me with the words revealed on the statue, the words I told you - Deserve Victory. They were, first of all, meant for me." <quite an ego there Dick>

"I don't understand," Anson said.

"I told you that your life is your own to live and that you have every right to defend it.

"Yet, I was telling myself that I had to balance the killing I did to defend my life and the lives of my loved ones by not eating meat - in essence, saying my self-defense, my killing of those who attack me and other innocent people, was morally wrong, and so for the killing I'd done I needed to make amends to the magic that helped me by offering it the appeasement of balance."

"But your sword's magic didn't work, either," Jennsen said.

"No, it didn't, and that should have been the thing that made me realize what the problem was, because both my gift and the sword's magic are different entities, yet the reacted logically to the same unreasoned action on my part. The sword's magic began to fail because I myself, by not eating meat, was saying that I did not completely believe that I was justified in using force to stop others who initiate violence.

"The sword's magic functions through the belief structure of the sword's owner; it only works against what the Seeker himself perceives as the enemy. The sword's magic will not work against a friend. That was the key I should have understood.

"When I thought that the use of the sword had to be balanced, I was, in effect, expressing a belief that my actions were in some way unjustified. Therefore, because I held that remnant of faith in a false concept that had been inculcated in me through my life, just as all the people of Bandakar were taught - that killing was always wrong - the sword's magic began to fail me.

"The Sword of Truth's magic, as my gift, could only again be viable when I comprehended - completely - that the magic needs no balance for the killing I've done because the killing I've done is not only moral, but the only moral course of action I could have taken. <I'll pause for a moment while you all let that one sink in.>

"By not eating meat, I was acknowledging that some part of my mind believed the same thing that the people here in Bandakar believed when we first me Owen and his men - that killing is always wrong.

"By thinking that I must not eat meat as a balance, I was denying the moral necessity of self-preservation, denying the essential of protecting the value of life. The very act of seeking 'balance' for what I'm right in doing is a conflict which is what was causing the headaches and also caused the Sword of Truth's power to fail me. I was doing it to myself."

Richard had violated the Wizard’s First Rule by believing a lie – that it was always wrong to kill – because he feared it was true. He had also violated the Second Rule, among others, but most grievous of all, he had violated the Sixth Rule. In so doing, he had ignored reason in favor of blind faith. <or blind rage?> The failure of his gift and the sword’s power was a direct result of not applying reasoned thought. <Yup, that must be it> Fortunately, with the Eighth Rule, he had come to reexamine his actions and finally realized the flaw in his thinking. Only then was he able to correct the situation.

In the end, he had fulfilled the Eighth Rule.

Richard shifted his weight to the other foot as he gazed at the faces watching him. “I had to come to understand that my actions are moral and need no balance, but are in themselves balance by my reasoned actions, that killing is sometimes not only justified, but the only right and moral thing to do.

“I had to come to understand the very thing I was asking all of you to understand. I had to understand that I must deserve victory.â€

~Terry Goodkind, Naked Empire

It's quite a speech considering all its really about is why Richard eats meat again.

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That's an absolutely bizarre rationalization for murder sprees. Someone needs to stop Richard before he kills again! Where's Agent Sparling when you need her?

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The failure of his gift and the sword’s power was a direct result of not applying reasoned thought.

Shouldn't this be "...of his gift and of the sword's power..."? -genuine (nitpickery -is that a word?-) question.

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:sick: :sick: :sick: :sick:

(it gets worse furthe into the book though...)

Lovely justification for Psychopathic violence there - the kind of thing you expect from a mass murderer with no real grip on reality... Oh, Sh*t... these Objectionist passages are getting me very scared...

You know that Alex from A Clockwork Orange and Frank Cauldhame from The Wasp Factory really have nothing on Richard as a psychotic killer. They only killed and tortured a few people for fun - Alex realised it was the folly of youth, for Frank it was just a phase he was going through as a child. But Richard remains unreformed - he still thinks that murdering innocent people he doesn't like is fine because he's dispensing justice through righteous anger. Does Goodkind seriously believe any of this?

I would love to see at the end of the series it suddenly change entirely in tone so that Richard was killed by his followers who depose him and create a democratic state out of the ashes of his warmaking. (He is becoming remarkably like Hitler - perhaps Goodkind is writing a fantasy version of WWII - I would love to see an equivalent of the Nuremburg trials set in Goodkind's world).

I meant that to be posted right under the QOTD. It wasn't directed towards brys, if that's what you are thinking...

I'm very relieved.

I've just seen the greatness of objectivism - no contradictions can exist in reality. Richard is ruled by reason not passion. Yet he always actually seems to act through passion rather than reason. But in objectivism, that's not a problem or inconsistency at all - because contradictions don't exist, any contradictions that actually exist can be nicely ignored. In the same way that Goodkind doesn't have to create an internally consistent world, all inconsistencies are entirely acceptable, because in the mind of the Yearded One, they can't possibly exist, so he's in no danger of creating any.

It means that objectivism has to be a flawless philosophy - Goodkind and Ayn Rand say it is a perfect philosophy, and because they're objectivists, they only see what is actually true, so they are right. The evidence that it isn't a perfect philosophy and is filled with contradictions is irrelevant - because contradictions don't exist. It is the perfect philosophy for a dictator - Hitler and Stalin stayed in their positions because of pragmatism, rather than their beliefs. Hitler may have been the sole source of ideological and political authority in the Reich, but his philosophy wasn't based around keeping himself in power so much as objectivism would be. Just imagine how much easier it would have been if he could have just revealed one of those statues at a parade and suddenly have people support him in everything he did. And he could kill all non-Aryans so much more easily - they were evil, so he could unleash his righteous anger and kill them all.

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Richard had violated the Wizard’s First Rule by believing a lie – that it was always wrong to kill – because he feared it was true. He had also violated the Second Rule, among others, but most grievous of all, he had violated the Sixth Rule. In so doing, he had ignored reason in favor of blind faith

What's the penalty for so egregiously disregarding all of these rules? As a true seeker of justice shouldn't Richard realize that he should fall on his own sword? Is there some wizard jury that tries people accused of breaking the rules?

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What's the penalty for so egregiously disregarding all of these rules? As a true seeker of justice shouldn't Richard realize that he should fall on his own sword? Is there some wizard jury that tries people accused of breaking the rules?

I think the Ninth rule is, as seen on souvenir tee-shirts and ball caps throughout Aydindril, "Pobody's Nerfect, in the Wizard's Keep."

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What's the penalty for so egregiously disregarding all of these rules? As a true seeker of justice shouldn't Richard realize that he should fall on his own sword? Is there some wizard jury that tries people accused of breaking the rules?

They're kinda more like guidelines...no one actually follows them...

Or you could look at it from this perspective, just because you knew the Prime Directive was there, it didn't mean Kirk or Picard were going to always follow it. There wouldn't be a show otherwise!

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I think I've figured out how Richard can submit to blind rage without contradicting the Wizard's Rule - Passion rules Reason.

You see, acting in anger has always worked for Richard. Therefore, it is reasonable for him to believe that it will always work. You don't give up when something's workinf for you. Hence, by submitting to passion, Richard is following the edicts of reason. Stupid, but reasonable.

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QOTD :sick: :sick: :sick: :sick:

WTF.

over long, wordy and preachy... any other author would have rewritten that about 5 times to produce a very short paragraph saying exactly the same thing but in a clear fashion....

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over long, wordy and preachy... any other author would have rewritten that about 5 times to produce a very short paragraph saying exactly the same thing but in a clear fashion....

Yeah, but those other writers are "fantasy authors" who are trying to tell a "story" with "magic" who are too intent on "world-building" instead of a character driven work with moral clarity.

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That latest QoTD: :sick: :sick: :sick: :sick: :sick:

Rationalising genocide? Murder, on any scale, is entirely justified, so long as Richard doesn't like the people he's killing? So, if you live anywhere near Goodkind, I'd be worried. In his mind he can go around and kill any of us, because we don't agree with his beliefs. Remember that he said we hate that good exists in the world. So according to his objectivism, he's entitled to come and kill every single one of us on this thread. Fortunately, the police have slightly different ideas.

I might just be too stupid or too young, but how does killing people strengthen life?

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