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Jon Snow: A mary sue?


Chatty Duelist

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So what, you're mad that Jon isn't dead yet? I fail to see how this makes him a Mary Sue. You said he doesn't get consequences for his action, we're pointing out that Qhorin told him to.

This seems more character-bashing than an actual thread to me.

This isn't character bashing. And even if Qhorin told him to. What proof do the others have? Nobody so much as raises an eyebrow at Jon killing Qhorin.

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Qhorin told him to kill him though. Qhorin prioritized infiltrating the wildlings above all else, and knew his death would be the price. Jon killed Qhorin and joined the wildlings under orders. I don't get why this is a major moral mishap-- like, the guy asked Jon to kill him. In terms of paying for it, he beats himself up over at least once a chapter until DwD, and it's caused some of the brothers not to trust him.

I'm of the opinion he had sex with Ygritte largely because he wanted to. So that's fine if you want to call this breaking vows. But I have to ask if you're equally perturbed by all those other "Gary Stus" who make a habit out of going to Mole Town and getting hookers without reprimand. Like, I don't get what's a huge deal about this.

Lastly, are you really serious about calling his joining the wildlings-- under orders-- "turncloaking?" His joining the wildlings has had some serious costs (people don't trust him on both sides) and benefits, so yes, under "costs," it has, in fact, cost him. But I really don't know if your calling this one of his major failings is just trolling, since it's abundantly obvious he was looking for a way back to the Watch since "joining" them.

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And yet he suffers nothing physically.

Umm... so he should be maimed or dead, is that the way of it? Because I'm sure having a nice blade go into you is physically painful.Mental and emotional pain mean nothing then?

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and dont forget that he got elected LC by cheating and vote fixing.

I don't even hate Jon but you guys got to admit this made no sense this to guys with a lot of pride backed a kid they did not know with no real accomplishments, whose family just lost the war and now is enemy to the crown, nor did they even tried to meet him before backing him.

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This isn't character bashing. And even if Qhorin told him to. What proof do the others have? Nobody so much as raises an eyebrow at Jon killing Qhorin.

I don't get it.You want him to get retribution. I told you he's done nothing to get retribution for. You tell me that 'the other character don't know that'.

You're right -- but then it wouldn't be retribution, since he still didn't. That would be 'an injustice happening to someone who doesn't deserve it', and we have plenty enough of that already. You might argue that is not fair that Jon is 'luckier' than your average ASOIAF character, and I totally agree; but it still doesn't make him a Mary Sue.

Why don't you open a Dany Mary Sue thread? She is more guilty of it than Jon - though she still not a Sue IMO. But there are worse offenders than Jon Snow.

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I see mary sues as empty characters in which people can project their desire of being better than anyone at everything and having things working out for them everytime. Jon feels very real to me.


He is certainly a good guy, more so than many other characters, but he isn't perfect, and he faces true moral dilemas. Traits that could be considered heroic actually lead him to make big mistakes (almost deserting the NW, Hardhome mission). The shieldhall speech is highly controversial. Besides, he does face the consequences of his actions... he gets marshed, after all.


I believe he wasn't more severely punished for killing Qhorin because in the end, he left the wildlings and managed to warn everyone of the attack, thus proving his loyalty.

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I don't even hate Jon but you guys got to admit this made no sense this to guys with a lot of pride backed a kid they did not know with no real accomplishments, whose family just lost the war and now is enemy to the crown, nor did they even tried to meet him before backing him.

They did it because Stannis made such a wonderful impression on them that both easily believed that he would appoint the other guy whom they thought would be even worse. Hence Jon was brought forth as a compromise candidate.

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By political maneuvering that he wasn't even party to.

The maneuveres made no sense Janos was a noob the level of power he was getting made no sense, even becoming Allister's made no sense, the man was a lannister creature. How Sam convinced to powerful oldmen to support a kid they did not meet or heard of before Sam told them about was silly as Hizardar's hair.

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You're right -- but then it wouldn't be retribution, since he still didn't. That would be 'an injustice happening to someone who doesn't deserve it', and we have plenty enough of that already.

Actually only Tyrion and maybe Brienne get that.

Why don't you open a Dany Mary Sue thread? She is more guilty of it than Jon - though she still not a Sue IMO. But there are worse offenders than Jon Snow.

Everything in it's own time.

A Mary Sue Character warps canon, enuff said. Jon doesn't do that. He is flawed in that he has low self-confidence, he make mistakes, and he is a loner by nature.

Also just happens to be the AAR and the Prince that was Promised, and the rightful heir to the Iron Throne, and the rightful heir of the Kingdom in the North.

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Actually grey characters would be a start yes.

We have a hell of a lot of them. But not everyone is grey in real life either. And Jon is not perfect. Perhaps he does not have the kind of major flaws that some would like him to have in order to vilify him in favor of their own preferred character. But he is nowhere near as pure as to be unbelievable.

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I don't even hate Jon but you guys got to admit this made no sense this to guys with a lot of pride backed a kid they did not know with no real accomplishments, whose family just lost the war and now is enemy to the crown, nor did they even tried to meet him before backing him.

I think it did make a lot of sense upon examination.

One of the major issues is that the Watch was completely depleted of relatively competent men. It was already kind of the bottom of the barrel.

But Mallister and Pyke's joining for Jon makes sense based on what was important to both. Mallister wanted an LC who was knightly, gently bred, could negotiate with kings and literate, while Pyke was sold on Jon's youth, fighting abilities and the fact that he was a bastard (a platform close to Pyke's heart). He was a good 3rd party candidate.

Actually grey characters would be a start yes.

Has it occurred to you, though, that while some of the other greyer characters intersect many similar choices and themes of Jon's arc, the fact that Jon typically chooses the "right" path is incredibly unique and powerful within this story? That is, in relation to the more ambiguous morality characters, the fact he actively tries to do what's right in some universal sense is fairly critical within the whole?

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The maneuveres made no sense Janos was a noob the level of power he was getting made no sense, even becoming Allister's made no sense, the man was a lannister creature. How Sam convinced to powerful oldmen to support a kid they did not meet or heard of before Sam told them about was silly as Hizardar's hair.

A Stark kid. Nuff said - that gets you a long way in the North, even in the NW. Also, the kid who had just, to the eyes of the NW, captured Mance's son and the horn.

And this is me, leaving the thread since you can't reason why people determined to hate a character no matter what. Again: say you don't like him, you're entitled to. But the 'he's a Mary Sue' angle is terribly weak.

Good day, y'all.

ETA: Kudos to SuperTechmarine, who hates Jon for things he hasn't even done yet.

Now, this is what I call dedication.

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He's not a Mary Sue, he's not engaged in playing the game of thrones at any level. In fact he is mostly in an organization that makes it a mission to avoid it. The only time he even comes close to it, he gets stabbed. If anything, the message seems to be that those who stay away from the game (and out of its path) are generally safer than those who play it. Which, frankly, is not too surprising.

Yep.

I don't think there are any Mary Sues in this series. Dany came close, early on, what with the whole "liberating an entire continent, one city at a time" storyline, but George put a stop to that, and now Dany's had a ton of failures.

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They did it because Stannis made such a wonderful impression on them that both easily believed that he would appoint the other guy whom they thought would be even worse. Hence Jon was brought forth as a compromise candidate.

They never heard or seen him, sure maybe after a talk or too but they judged him entirely based on Sam's word. They are two grown men full of ambition yet decide from a five minute talk with Sam that some random kid will do a better job then them, it makes no sense.

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and dont forget that he got elected LC by cheating and vote fixing.

Don't forget that he is "half a wolf and half a wildling, baseborn get of a traitor and a whore.","He's just a boy, a bastard. His father was a traitor. The mark of the beast is on him, that wolf of his." and he doesn't know how to address people saying "Milord"

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