butterbumps! Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 They never heard or seen him, sure maybe after a talk or too but they judged him entirely based on Sam's word. They are two grown men full of ambition yet decide from a five minute talk with Sam that some random kid will do a better job then them, it makes no sense. No, they based their decisions on the points I posted above, as well as the fact that Jon was Mormont's squire and had held the Wall (successfully) at Donal's command. ETA: it should be noted that Mallister and Pyke were explicitly not ambitious, or covetous of the LC position for its own sake. They say as much, and seem relieved at the mention of the 3rd choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hajk Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 The maneuveres made no sense Janos was a noob the level of power he was getting made no sense, even becoming Allister's made no sense, the man was a lannister creature. How Sam convinced to powerful oldmen to support a kid they did not meet or heard of before Sam told them about was silly as Hizardar's hair. Janos' power came from being seen as a Tywin lieutenant at the Wall. What we are shown is that despite efforts, the Wall is still not indifferent to the outside world. Sam convinced them to vote tactically. It happens in democracies and often results in candidates with little core support getting elected to high offices. There was no Condorcet winner here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 I think it did make a lot of sense upon examination. One of the major issues is that the Watch was completely depleted of relatively competent men. It was already kind of the bottom of the barrel. But Mallister and Pyke's joining for Jon makes sense based on what was important to both. Mallister wanted an LC who was knightly, gently bred, could negotiate with kings and literate, while Pyke was sold on Jon's youth, fighting abilities and the fact that he was a bastard (a platform close to Pyke's heart). He was a good 3rd party candidate. Has it occurred to you, though, that while some of the other greyer characters intersect many similar choices and themes of Jon's arc, the fact that Jon typically chooses the "right" path is incredibly unique and powerful within this story? That is, in relation to the more ambiguous morality characters, the fact he actively tries to do what's right in some universal sense is fairly critical within the whole? I would have been okay if they actually met Jon before backing him but they didn't instead of going for more facts like most leaders they pick him entirely based on what Sam said to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hajk Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 They never heard or seen him, sure maybe after a talk or too but they judged him entirely based on Sam's word. They are two grown men full of ambition yet decide from a five minute talk with Sam that some random kid will do a better job then them, it makes no sense. And perhaps his own wonderful reputation. I thought it was fairly clear that Jon was a compromise candidate. He did not need to have core support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 I would have been okay if they actually met Jon before backing him but they didn't instead of going for more facts like most leaders they pick him entirely based on what Sam said to them. And I'm saying that no, they didn't. The knew Mormont had picked him for command (this is a huge deal to them), and Pyke was impressed by the fact that Jon had successfully held the Wall against those wildling attacks that spanned 3 chapters or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Pollo Loco Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 They never heard or seen him, sure maybe after a talk or too but they judged him entirely based on Sam's word. They are two grown men full of ambition yet decide from a five minute talk with Sam that some random kid will do a better job then them, it makes no sense. Qhorin knew who Jon was on sight, where are you getting this they have no idea who he is from? Sam basically says pick Jon or your rival will get it, what in the text says they are "full of ambition" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 No, they based their decisions on the points I posted above, as well as the fact that Jon was Mormont's squire and had held the Wall (successfully) at Donal's command. ETA: it should be noted that Mallister and Pyke were explicitly not ambitious, or covetous of the LC position for its own sake. They say as much, and seem relieved at the mention of the 3rd choice. Right, which they learned entirely based on Sam's word they never actually spoke to the man the were planning to back. Also wasn't Mormont's squire for like a month? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XSarellaX Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 By the way, it hasn't happened yet, but there is a very real chance that Jon's assassination attempt is the event responsible for the Wall falling,and for the Other's invasion to begin. And even though I agree with many of his decisions and can see where his was coming from, the betrayal happened because of some choices he made.Imagine the irony: Jon is the guy responsible for the failure of the first (and only) line of defense against the WW...(I am exaggerating, but I think that is how Jon is going to feel like) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 How can he be a Mary Sue if he has bad decisions and mistakes to his name? Isn't that kind of a contradiction in and of itself? Surely a Mary Sue is a person who DOESN'T make such mistakes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Right, which they learned entirely based on Sam's word they never actually spoke to the man the were planning to back. Also wasn't Mormont's squire for like a month? No. closer to a year. Did you personally speak with the last guy you voted for, or were the adverts (i.e. Sam) sufficient for you to make a decision? Keep in mind as well, the lie Sam tells is that Stannis will pick their rival if a choice isn't made. Jon is a compromise candidate who satisfies what's important to the two major contenders, far better than having the either selected by an outsider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 There might be a little bit of "oh, he's a Stark" thing that makes people to trust him and follow him but in the same way, that might be the reason why some others - like Marsh - can't stand him. he was very green when he first arrive to the Wall, and he had to pay the price for it, but if something, I think older/wiser people around him saw his potential, specially Aemon and Mormont (funny think, that's pretty much the same pairing that eventually supports Dany: an old targaryen supporter and a Mormont. And both Selmy and Aemon are where they are due to their own will, while Mormonts were forced due to honour). Also, when Jon starts to make bonds with other members of the Watch, they realise he's a good person. After Aemon and Mormont are far from him, he's pretty muych by himself, and we start see how the people who simply had to "tolerate" the kid now have to obey him, even though they consider his orders "strange". They might even think "Stark's son thinks he's the great think because he's a Stark". When people like Thorne and Slynt are together, it's like an old maid's club. They start to talk to their one convenience and see Jon as the odd one. After he returned, they pretty much tried to even hang him. I see no light treatment of him, except people try to get the best of him in order to be helpful to the Watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 How can he be a Mary Sue if he has bad decisions and mistakes to his name? Isn't that kind of a contradiction in and of itself? Surely a Mary Sue is a person who DOESN'T make such mistakes? Not necessarily, as sometimes authors make their mary sue make minor mistakes in attempt to deflect the criticism of mary sueism while otherwise playing the trope straight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Not necessarily, as sometimes authors make their mary sue make minor mistakes in attempt to deflect the criticism of mary sueism while otherwise playing the trope straight.Ah fair enough. Is doing something that ends with you getting stabbed a minor mistake, or no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Ah fair enough. Is doing something that ends with you getting stabbed a minor mistake, or no? While, I think his character (alongside Dany, Tyrion, and somewhat Arya) does suffer from some excessive author favoritism at times I still don't consider him a Mary Sue. Particularly, in how I consider him (like Dany) to be a pretty mediocre at best leader in regards to his command of the Night's Watch. Fan:Jon Snow though is a horse of a different color. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionAhaiReborn Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 He has practically zero flaws and nothing goes against him. He's never punished for bad decisions or mistakes, Robb gets killed because he couldn't keep it in his pants, Tyrion is exiled because everyone hates him, Eddard is executed for telling Cersei. People get fucked over all the time. And Jon doesn't get even a tap on the wrist. Like literally nothing. Jon's lover dies in his arms after he indirectly kills her by rallying the NW against the wildling sneak attack. I'm gonna put that in the 'things going against him' column. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 You all know how I feel about John, but he certainly isn't a Mary Sue. His life sucks, who'd want to be him except masochists? Where is the wish fulfilment part which is the whole point of Mary Sues? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 I don't think he is a Mary Sue but his fanboys/girls make him out to be more than he really is so he starts to seem like one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 No. closer to a year. Did you personally speak with the last guy you voted for, or were the adverts (i.e. Sam) sufficient for you to make a decision? Keep in mind as well, the lie Sam tells is that Stannis will pick their rival if a choice isn't made. Jon is a compromise candidate who satisfies what's important to the two major contenders, far better than having the either selected by an outsider. I am to young to vote but come on Jon lives next door to them. Hell Stannis is too, just trusting Sam makes no sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 I am to young to vote but come on Jon lives next door to them. Hell Stannis is too, just trusting Sam makes no sense. Sam doesn't tell them anything that they don't already know. Sam merely emphasizes specific aspects about Jon that would appeal to either. Sam didn't give a testimonial of Jon's virtue or proposed tax policies, you know. The things that Mallister and Pyke cared about were things like fighting prowess, birth status (which worked both ways), ability to read, and culture. These were all things that were common knowledge-- Jon was a bastard, castle bred, could read, held the Wall for multiple assaults successfully leading the counter attacks, was trusted by Donal and Mormont. Besides, during this time Jon was out in the practice yard training and practicing with all the other boys because there was no master at arms at this time-- so he was fairly visible, he was showing leadership, and he was fighting in plain sight. And, again, this was less about how great of an LC Jon would make, and more about Mallister's fear that Stannis would name Pyke and vice versa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Arryn Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 I don't think he is a Mary Sue but his fanboys/girls make him out to be more than he really is so he starts to seem like one. Pretty much this. Jon is one of my favourite characters actually top two but some of the theories I see regarding him on here go way too far and sometimes I just feel like saying "You're going too far sweetie" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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