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Jon Snow: A mary sue?


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I am to young to vote but come on Jon lives next door to them. Hell Stannis is too, just trusting Sam makes no sense.

Sam's basic argument is "Well we can't agree on who will be best, but can we agree on who'll be second best?"

This is typical tactical voting in democratic setups, and it does often get compromise candidates who may not have very heavy core support (that often belongs to more extreme candidates) elected.

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Pretty much this.

Jon is one of my favourite characters actually top two but some of the theories I see regarding him on here go way too far and sometimes I just feel like saying "You're going too far sweetie"

Indeed. But I see this with a lot of characters: Sansa, Dany, Stannis...

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Thanks for the MS defs, ARYa_Nym. Let me tackle this point by point.





The prototypical Mary Sue is an original female character in a fanfic who obviously serves as an idealized version of the author mainly for the purpose of Wish Fulfillment. She's exotically beautiful, often having an unusual hair or eye color, and has a similarly cool and exotic name.





Well, certainly none of this fits Jon, no one describes him as handsome or exotic. If anything, Tyrion (who GRRM has said is his favorite character) fits the prototype better in terms of being a self-insert; now, Tyrion has exotically ugly, not exotically beautiful, features, but he does have those mismatched eyes and weird blonde-and-brown streaked hair, apparently GRRM was impressed enough by his supposed "wit and wisdom" to take a gamble that a whole book of nothing but Tyrion quotes would sell. And while Dany has some MS traits, she can't be a self-insert, b/c as far as I can tell she has nothing in common with GRRM. Even her "unusual hair or eye color" and "exotic name" are in the context of a whole family that has these features, and since she thinks of herself as "Dany" not "Daenerys" for the most part, the exotic name is really not that emphasized.





She's exceptionally talented in an implausibly wide variety of areas, and may possess skills that are rare or nonexistent in the canon setting. She also lacks any realistic, or at least story-relevant, character flaws — either that or her "flaws" are obviously meant to be endearing.





Jon is talented with the sword, but this can be attributed to his arms and combat training at Winterfell, and there's no sign he's musical, or great at sums, or has a photographic memory, and while he does have the warging ability, so do all his "siblings", as do at least two wildings he meets. As for his flaws, he can be whiny and entitled, very "emo" and has a chip on his shoulder about a lot of things, has this weird tendency to dissociate himself from problematic actions - the first time he has sex with Ygritte he describes it as "his body playing the part", not him; when he has the dream about killing Robb he describes it as "Longclaw", not him, chopping Robb's head off. His obsession as LC with "kill the boy and let the man be born" results in his sending away his friends and running roughshod over others; I don't think any of this was meant to be endearing.





She has an unusual and dramatic Back Story. The canon protagonists are all overwhelmed with admiration for her beauty, wit, courage and other virtues, and are quick to adopt her as one of their True Companions, even characters who are usually antisocial and untrusting;





Jon's Back Story is dramatic assuming R+L = J, however, none of the canon protagonists know about it (except for dead Ned, so far). And while Tyrion, certainly "antisocial and untrusting", does accept Jon as a friend, he seems to completely forget about Jon once he's back in KL. You could argue that LC Mormont treats Jon a lot better than he deserves, but he is obviously grooming Jon to be his successor, and his forgiving Jon his initial desertion attempt is placed in the context of his having apparently forgiven others for the same sins, as he makes statements that if he executed every boy who snuck away to Moletown, he'd only have ghosts to man the wall.



Jon likely gets advantages on the Wall for being perceived as a Stark in all but name, but this was true for other Starks on the Wall as well, such as the 10 year old kid who was elected LC earlier, and it seems Benjen gets some special treatment as well, being allowed to visit Winterfell often enough that Jon and the other children have formed meaningful bonds to him. His being perceived as "highborn" and from an influential family, and getting some breaks, however, is consistent with Mormont's M.O. with highborns such as Waymar Royce. The only plot point I think gets at all close to MS territory is Jeor giving Longclaw to Jon fairly early in the story (if he'd, say, willed it to him as he lay dying, I'd have found that more understandable).




...if any character doesn't love her, that character gets an extremely unsympathetic portrayal. She has some sort of especially close relationship to the author's favorite canon character — their love interest, illegitimate child, never-before-mentioned sister, etc.




From what I see of Catelyn's portrayal, as well as GRRM's own words, I do NOT think she "gets an extremely unsympathetic portrayal". Some Jon stans have vilified and bashed her, of course, but that's not what GRRM himself meant to do. And while Jon does befriend Tyrion, GRRM's favorite male canon character, it's really not that deep a relationship so far. I don't recall who GRRM stated his favorite female character was, but let's say it's Dany -- Jon is likely Dany's nephew, but so far, they don't even know the other exists.



Now, I do agree with people who think Jon has a ridiculous amount of plot armor compared to the other major POV characters; he escapes consequences for attacking Thorne and for failing to assassinate Mance, and Ygritte conveniently dies instead of sticking around to, say, present him with a bastard of his own. It seems that he may survive his assassination attempt, even be outright raised from the dead without the degradation Beric and UnCat endure.



However, much as every other "Stark kid", he believes he's lost his father and most of his siblings. I also suspect that Jon's assassination will make for chaos at the wall, and serious consequences that can't be reversed, even if Jon himself comes back to life. GRRM hasn't given us any characters who can "save the world" single-handedly, and I doubt he means for Jon to be the first one. (Even though Jon stans may believe he will do so, marry Dany, and live HEA -- I like Jon, but I'm not a die-hard fan of his, and I agree with what Show!Ramsay said about happy endings where this story is concerned).



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You're right -- but then it wouldn't be retribution, since he still didn't. That would be 'an injustice happening to someone who doesn't deserve it', and we have plenty enough of that already.

Actually only Tyrion and maybe Brienne get that.

Tyrion and Brienne are aboslutely not the only ones who have suffered injustices.

A Mary Sue Character warps canon, enuff said. Jon doesn't do that. He is flawed in that he has low self-confidence, he make mistakes, and he is a loner by nature.

Also just happens to be the AAR and the Prince that was Promised, and the rightful heir to the Iron Throne, and the rightful heir of the Kingdom in the North.

Actually, none of these are correct. Dany is still the most likely candidate for AAR/TPTWP. Stannis is the rightful heir to the IT. And Bran or Rickon, the oldest living sons of Ned Stark, are the rightful heirs to Winterfell.

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Actually I hardly see threads that people say Sansa, Dany or Stannis are AAR, will win the throne and at the same time have the perfect wife/husband.

Just got through with a thread where the "general consensus" was that Sansa was going to take control of the Vale Army, wear ceremonial armor, and lead her 20,000 troops against the Lannisters; her troops would win, because she would "most likely choose a good advisor to assist her".

There are definitely Dany and Stannis threads along the same line.

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From what I see of Catelyn's portrayal, as well as GRRM's own words, I do NOT think she "gets an extremely unsympathetic portrayal". Some Jon stans have vilified and bashed her, of course, but that's not what GRRM himself meant to do. And while Jon does befriend Tyrion, GRRM's favorite male canon character, it's really not that deep a relationship so far. I don't recall who GRRM stated his favorite female character was, but let's say it's Dany -- Jon is likely Dany's nephew, but so far, they don't even know the other exists.

You're welcome.

April 16, 2008

Favorite Character to Write

Tyrion. Arya is fun to write as well.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Favorite_Character_to_Write/

8) A part from Tyron, is there any female character you love more than the others?

Oh, probably Arya... but as with the men, I love them all.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/A_Myriad_of_Questions/

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Jon is talented with the sword, but this can be attributed to his arms and combat training at Winterfell, and there's no sign he's musical, or great at sums, or has a photographic memory, and while he does have the warging ability, so do all his "siblings", as do at least two wildings he meets. As for his flaws, he can be whiny and entitled, very "emo" and has a chip on his shoulder about a lot of things, has this weird tendency to dissociate himself from problematic actions - the first time he has sex with Ygritte he describes it as "his body playing the part", not him; when he has the dream about killing Robb he describes it as "Longclaw", not him, chopping Robb's head off. His obsession as LC with "kill the boy and let the man be born" results in his sending away his friends and running roughshod over others; I don't think any of this was meant to be endearing.

I just wanted to emphasize this point (and I think I agree with the rest of your breakdown, too).

Jon is the one young leader who has an endless stream of mentors (who also actually takes their good advice, too)-- Ned, Mormont, Aemon, Qhorin, Mance, Donal, even Sam and so forth. He's actually gotten both the training and experience that Varys is talking about at the end of DwD with Aegon. When he does something successfully, there's some extremely good reasons for it-- I think he's naturally fairly observant, and gets the importance of listening and analysis-- but he's been highly groomed. He wasn't born with all of these skills we see-- it's been an incredibly arduous training for him.

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ARYa_Nym, thanks for the GRRM quotes! Interestingly, I've seen people accuse Arya of being a "Mary Sue" as well, but other than the "assassin" storyline that you can argue is her possessing "skills that are rare or nonexistent in the canon setting" especially for a girl, and you can argue the whole Weasel Soup storyline was implausible, but she's not the only Faceless Man around, and certainly not the only warg. You could also argue that her flaws are meant to be "endearing", but I've seen enough people accuse her of being a blood-thirsty sociopath, that I doubt she quite fits that mold, either. (Arya's story also mirrors Jon in how she accumulates quite a lot of "mentor" figures along the way, such as Syrio, Jaqen H'ghar, Sandor, the Kindly Man, etc. She has plot armor, too, but she gets a LOT of help to survive.)



Also, while almost all the Stark kids would technically be prodigies for their age (except, perhaps, for Sansa), I take that as part of the universe (and GRRM not being as great with capturing pre-pubescent POVs as adult ones), much like the Star Wars universe, in which a 14 year old girl could be elected Queen and a 10 year old boy is considered too old for Jedi training. Not quite realistic, but it's not like GRRM bent the rules specifically for Arya, or Jon, or Bran, or Robb. (Robb's storyline actually seems closest to realistic, and of course was meant to specifically subvert the "super-special son avenging his father" trope.)

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And yet he suffers nothing physically.

Hand burn comes to mind.. but why is this important in labeling him as a Mary Sue? In fact, what do you even mean by that? You, not us, you, think he's perfect, so he's just a Mary Sue unworthy of this series?

This seems more character-bashing than an actual thread to me.

This guy. Or gal. They are right.

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ARYa_Nym, thanks for the GRRM quotes! Interestingly, I've seen people accuse Arya of being a "Mary Sue" as well, but other than the "assassin" storyline that you can argue is her possessing "skills that are rare or nonexistent in the canon setting" especially for a girl, and you can argue the whole Weasel Soup storyline was implausible, but she's not the only Faceless Man around, and certainly not the only warg. You could also argue that her flaws are meant to be "endearing", but I've seen enough people accuse her of being a blood-thirsty sociopath, that I doubt she quite fits that mold, either. (Arya's story also mirrors Jon in how she accumulates quite a lot of "mentor" figures along the way, such as Syrio, Jaqen H'ghar, Sandor, the Kindly Man, etc. She has plot armor, too, but she gets a LOT of help to survive.)

Also, while almost all the Stark kids would technically be prodigies for their age (except, perhaps, for Sansa), I take that as part of the universe (and GRRM not being as great with capturing pre-pubescent POVs as adult ones), much like the Star Wars universe, in which a 14 year old girl could be elected Queen and a 10 year old boy is considered too old for Jedi training. Not quite realistic, but it's not like GRRM bent the rules specifically for Arya, or Jon, or Bran, or Robb. (Robb's storyline actually seems closest to realistic, and of course was meant to specifically subvert the "super-special son avenging his father" trope.)

it's quite prototypical of fantasy stories no? the important characters are the ones marked by growth, development, and a path of self discovery. Jon, Arya, Bran are all following this trope. As is Jaime and Tyrion and Dany. This series was never going to subvert all established cliche, in fact it clings to the traditional fantasy genre pretty closely. GRRM just hides it well through red herring charaters like Robb

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ARYa_Nym, thanks for the GRRM quotes! Interestingly, I've seen people accuse Arya of being a "Mary Sue" as well, but other than the "assassin" storyline that you can argue is her possessing "skills that are rare or nonexistent in the canon setting" especially for a girl, and you can argue the whole Weasel Soup storyline was implausible, but she's not the only Faceless Man around, and certainly not the only warg. You could also argue that her flaws are meant to be "endearing", but I've seen enough people accuse her of being a blood-thirsty sociopath, that I doubt she quite fits that mold, either. (Arya's story also mirrors Jon in how she accumulates quite a lot of "mentor" figures along the way, such as Syrio, Jaqen H'ghar, Sandor, the Kindly Man, etc. She has plot armor, too, but she gets a LOT of help to survive.)

Also, while almost all the Stark kids would technically be prodigies for their age (except, perhaps, for Sansa), I take that as part of the universe (and GRRM not being as great with capturing pre-pubescent POVs as adult ones), much like the Star Wars universe, in which a 14 year old girl could be elected Queen and a 10 year old boy is considered too old for Jedi training. Not quite realistic, but it's not like GRRM bent the rules specifically for Arya, or Jon, or Bran, or Robb. (Robb's storyline actually seems closest to realistic, and of course was meant to specifically subvert the "super-special son avenging his father" trope.)

I can see Mary Sue qualities in all the Stark children except Rickon mainly because he's so nonexistent in the series.

There are other characters with similar assassin skills they just aren't FM like say Varys, the Sand Snakes/Oberyn, etc. The different skill set would be the ability to change their faces but Arya hasn't acquired that skill. It's still a skill of the FM and she needs assistance. Then again you have Mel who can provide a glamor.

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He's the closest to a classic hero, that allows him to be labelled as a Sue because they share a few traits on a superficial level. Successful leaders all have some combination of talent, luck and support from others in adverse situations - that is true in fiction or real life. Without that combination they would either not be successful or not be leaders. Pick your top 5 generals / rulers from any century of history and I bet they could all be described in a way that fits some of the traits of a Sue.

Point of fact: Where the hell is it indicated Pyke and Mallister had never met Jon? It makes it seem like they all arrived at Castle Black that afternoon.

There had been several nights of Choosing, with an unspecified time after the battle before that, it was enough time for Jon to have a habit of training with Iron Emmett. It seem s likely the two most senior officers in the Watch would have interviewed the man who held the Wall and has intelligence on the Wildlings. Even if no interview took place there were still several occasions of everybody being gathered in the one hall, it is odd to think that they would never have met Jon.

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Jon has done questionable things and faces consequences all the time. Jon broke his vows for the greater good on a couple occasions where more traditional Mary Sues wouldn't. His actions with Ygritte and killing half-hand to infiltrate the Wildlings. attempting to save who he thinks is his half-sister in Winterfell, attacking Thorne, and it could be argued that even strategizing with Stannis and telling him about the Mountain clans and some other stuff was intruding on realm affairs. These are all fairly gray actions, some blatantly breaking specific parts of vows in order to better service the spirit of what the oaths encapsulate.



For his initial failure of duty in interactions with Ygritte he ends up getting captured by Wildlings, which is a consequence. He's forced into more tough decisions because of this and he ends up going along with a very shady sounding plan of Half-hand, but it was pretty much one of the few options any of them had and it was high risk/high reward. The ability to be more flexible with his honor allowed Jon to make the best use of the shitty situation and get intell on the Wildlings and allowing for the survival of at least one crows who was believed to have a lot of potential. Half-hand made a selfless sacrifice and this cost Jon a great mentor and the crows a much needed ranger. When he gets back he understandably has people questioning him and his motives as it does sound suspicious, but he had earned some good will from prior actions and his reputation so I don't find it crazy that a lot of people believed his story. Additionally, there are others no matter what he does who will be against him like the Thornes and Marshes, so another example of everything not just falling into place at his will. Then of course is the whole stabby stabby incident.



So these are all consequences stemming from some morally gray tough decisions he was forced to make. So you then argue, well it doesn't mater he doesn't die and stay dead from any of it which is all that matters and continually runs into fortuitous circumstances that help bail him out. To that I say so what? Every single main character for the most part has had absurd luck fall into their lap with which they wouldn't be gracing us with their inner monologues in the upcoming books.



How you nitpick that stuff when it's in the same series of books in which a non-dothraki Khaleesi plays a major role in the death of her Khal via the pushing the sorceress to treat him, which destroys the only thing really keeping her attached to 99% of the horde that protected her while stuck in the middle of one of the most inhospitable places on planetos--who then fortuitously knows to set up a pyre with these stone eggs in what Martin himself deems an absolute miracle and hatches dragons which are pretty much the only thing propping her up for the first 3 books... These dragons then allow her access to like one of the only water/food/shelter sources in the area(Qarth) without which she and all she was with would probably be dead. But wait, there's more. She goes into a Warlock mystery tower without full knowledge of her dragons capabilities or the power of the Warlocks themselves and gets bailed out by the dragons again. Dragons get her an army of unsullied. This leads to her having more perceived power increasing her opportunities exponentially. Hey look, an old Kingsguardman from her father's kingsguard which she herself really had nothing to do with, just happened to recently show up and save her from an assassination attempt.



Along the way she goes a little nuts with the dragons and the carnage, and you say well she's now stuck in Mereen surrounded due to all her bad decisions, SEE CONSEQUENCES MATTER FOR HER. Except it's no different than Jon's situation. You don't really think she's gonna die here do you? I'm guessing she'll be bailed out by some combination of sellsword defections, Jorah/Tyrion returning with something, Victarion, plague getting to the Astapori, and/or her returning on her Dragons while the Astpori make some major errors. She may suffer some losses like lose a major commander or maybe even a dragon, but how is this any different than Jon?



Lot of this applies to Tyrion too. Two trials by combat where has unexpected help to save him. One case he runs into bad luck, but hey he has some help in getting out via secret passageways and makes some major mistakes, but manages to escape. Hey he falls into a dangerous river, it's cool JonCon just so happens to be in the area. Etc, etc, etc.



Call it plot armor if you want or just having a string of luck partially stemming from past goodwill and some decent improvisation along the way. In either case it's no more glaring than we've seen from other characters throughout the series.

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He's the closest to a classic hero, that allows him to be labelled as a Sue because they share a few traits on a superficial level. Successful leaders all have some combination of talent, luck and support from others in adverse situations - that is true in fiction or real life. Without that combination they would either not be successful or not be leaders. Pick your top 5 generals / rulers from any century of history and I bet they could all be described in a way that fits some of the traits of a Sue.

Point of fact: Where the hell is it indicated Pyke and Mallister had never met Jon? It makes it seem like they all arrived at Castle Black that afternoon.

There had been several nights of Choosing, with an unspecified time after the battle before that, it was enough time for Jon to have a habit of training with Iron Emmett. It seem s likely the two most senior officers in the Watch would have interviewed the man who held the Wall and has intelligence on the Wildlings. Even if no interview took place there were still several occasions of everybody being gathered in the one hall, it is odd to think that they would never have met Jon.

It doesn't specify whether they'd "met" or not, but I think the other poster was talking more about having a sit down and discussing policy or something before voting-- like, a "getting to know you" type meeting, the way Slynt was electioneering. In terms of timeline, Pyke showed up with Stannis, and Mallister showed up with Sam and Gilly shortly after, and the election had been going for 10 full days by the time Sam intervenes, so there's been a bit time of time where they've been together, and I agree, I do tend to think they "met" in some capacity.

I agree with your other points about heroic figures as well. I'd even go a step further and say that what really annoys me when a character-- any major character-- is called a "sue" or "cliche" is that despite its being an attempt to disparage the particular character (or aggravate the fanbase, or both), in reality, it only serves to disparage Martin as an amateur, hack writer who writes shitty characters. It's just lazy criticism that doesn't bash the character so much as the author, and I think that's rather problematic.

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Yeah, I can really see the logic of that.



He's raised as an outsider and a bastard, gets **** from Catelyn, Theon etc.



Then he has to go to the Night's Watch and the one opportunity he gets to get Winterfell, he declines it.



I can clearly see how he's a Mary Sue...


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