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Jon Snow: A mary sue?


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Ed fetch me a block is sort of overrated. Hes just asking for a piece of wood so he can cut a defenseless guys head off. I dont get why thats so badass. Janos was an asshole sure, but really? "fetch me a block" is so idolized, and i dont get it.

Honestly, I agree. Janos might have been annoying, but that was all he was it isn't like he was some mastermind who dramatically destroyed the Starks that it really satisfied any sense of vengeance. Honestly, at times one would think that Jon was about to execute Joffrey, Cersei, Tywin, Roose, Ramsay, Walder, and LF all at once with how much people praise it.

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Jon Snow, the character written by GRRM, is not a Mary-Sue. The vision his die-hard followers make of him, however, paint him in such a light.

How do we paint him? Jon's easily my favorite character and I get pissed off at anyone who says he's flawless. Hell, the reason I like Jon is because he's like a younger, more badass Ned with anger issues and a big parental question mark that follows him everywhere he goes. I'm pretty sure you're thinking of the Arya fans.

Oh, and a good example of a Mary Sue in actual literature is Matthias from Redwall (stupid book, even for little children).

Honestly, I agree. Janos might have been annoying, but that was all he was it isn't like he was some mastermind who dramatically destroyed the Starks that it really satisfied any sense of vengeance. Honestly, at times one would think that Jon was about to execute Joffrey, Cersei, Tywin, Roose, Ramsay, Walder, and LF all at once with how much people praise it.

At least it isn't "You know nothing, Jon Snow." (rams head into wall)

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Ed fetch me a block is sort of overrated. Hes just asking for a piece of wood so he can cut a defenseless guys head off. I dont get why thats so badass. Janos was an asshole sure, but really? "fetch me a block" is so idolized, and i dont get it.

It's the difference between having someone else do the dirty work and being disconnected from your choices as a leader, and getting your hands dirty and being willing to see your decisions through. If you think it's just about a hunk of wood, that's your issue.

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It's the difference between having someone else do the dirty work and being disconnected from your choices as a leader, and getting your hands dirty and being willing to see your decisions through. If you think it's just about a hunk of wood, that's your issue.

If he was doing his own dirty work wouldn't he have "fetched the block" himself though? you know, instead of having a servant get it?
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Honestly, I agree. Janos might have been annoying, but that was all he was it isn't like he was some mastermind who dramatically destroyed the Starks that it really satisfied any sense of vengeance. Honestly, at times one would think that Jon was about to execute Joffrey, Cersei, Tywin, Roose, Ramsay, Walder, and LF all at once with how much people praise it.

Janos betrayed Ned with LF and held him down while he got beheaded, you best believe I was happy as fuck when Jon knocked his head off with Longclaw. It's like the only time the Starks have gotten any revenge themselves barring Lady Stoneheart and Arya killing the Tickler and Janos was a bigger character than anyone LS killed. The Boltons and Walder will get theres eventually and i'll be happy when that happens :)

If he was doing his own dirty work wouldn't he have "fetched the block" himself though? you know, instead of having a servant get it?

:lol:

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Janos betrayed Ned with LF and held him down while he got beheaded, you best believe I was happy as fuck when Jon knocked his head off with Longclaw. It's like the only time the Starks have gotten any revenge themselves barring Lady Stoneheart and Arya killing the Tickler and Janos was a bigger character than anyone LS killed. The Boltons and Walder will get theres eventually and i'll be happy when that happens :)

Honestly, Janos ranks up there with me the same as the Freys that the BWB has hanged. Simply, I am not sad that they are dead but is hardly something that I am fist pumping over as at worst they just annoyed me.

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ITT: People dont know what a Mary Sue really is.

[snip]

No one in this series is a Mary Sue. No, not even Dany. Dany has traits but is an obvious deconstruction of the very idea of a Lost Princess/Special Race figure. Jon cannot possibly be a Mary Sue. He is not without visible flaws. He is often called out by other characters. He is not the best fighter in the Watch either. Nothing he does is inconsistent with the universe of ASOIAF. Classic Hero Archetype =/= Mary Sue.

Exactly, thank you! Mary Sues are glaringly obvious self-inserts of the author, not characters that happen to follow the hero archetype.

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Killing Qhorin, breaking his vows, turning cloak. He never get's so much as a tap on the wrist.

how is killing qhorin a mistake? Qhorin basically tells him to do it. The rest are just a result of that command. He was commanded to blend in with the wildlings and he did. Also he does get punished for this, he has to live knowing that his actions killed the woman he loved. Oh and then his NW brothers literally stabbed him in the back. I really dont think you have a leg to stand on here buddy, Im reasonably sure you're just trolling.
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I'm sure he wanted to give Edd something to do. But I'm sure if Stannis ever deigned to behead someone himself he'd get his own wood.

Stannis wouldn't even need to use wood to behead someone though. That's the difference between him and jon.
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You must not read many threads then.

Personally, I've never seen such threads made about Sansa. I'd say Stannis and Dany are normal things to say, considering they are actually contenders, to be honest.

How do we paint him? Jon's easily my favorite character and I get pissed off at anyone who says he's flawless. Hell, the reason I like Jon is because he's like a younger, more badass Ned with anger issues and a big parental question mark that follows him everywhere he goes.

Oh, and a good example of a Mary Sue in actual literature is Matthias from Redwall (stupid book, even for little children).

I'm not sure about your personal opinion, but I've seen so many threads that dedicate their times to describe at length how Jon can do no wrong, and how he'll rise and be AAR, single-handily save the world, sit as KITN, then King in the Iron Throne, then conquer Essos only for the lolz, still being the perfect husband to Val, because that makes much sense politically. And how other characters have no agency other than to support or oppose his quest to power. It gets worst when the theory is that Dany will conquer everything and will die/give up to Jon, as that is her main service to the story.

In fact, I've recently realized in my re-readings that I really enjoy Jon Snow in ADWD, but this twisted view of his character had spoiled my opinion of him. I quite like Jon Snow, GRRM's character. I simply can't stand the guy that is born to fulfill all promises, save the world, where everyone gives up agency for his rise to power, only because he's such a good person.

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Janos betrayed Ned with LF and held him down while he got beheaded, you best believe I was happy as fuck when Jon knocked his head off with Longclaw. It's like the only time the Starks have gotten any revenge themselves barring Lady Stoneheart and Arya killing the Tickler and Janos was a bigger character than anyone LS killed. The Boltons and Walder will get theres eventually and i'll be happy when that happens :)

The 'fetch' scene is a particularly lame 'have your cake and eat it' moment. We're supposed to be happy because Starks get some measure of revenge. However, a Jon who goes out of his way to take vengeance would be a darker character. So Janos actually dies on account of Jon enforcing military discipline. This is a purer motive. So you are supposed to get the thrill of vengeance, while at the same time the act of taking revenge doesn't colour the character at all.

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