Sansa loosing her wolf poosible forshadowing?

[lulu_pix]

Yes, and Sansa survives while being under the microscope of the enemy and at their mercy 24/7, and is still a hostage. Robb, Arya, Bran and Rickon all have/had something Sansa never had... freedom. Robb died doing exactly what he felt he had to do, and I don't belittle his death. Arya is free and on her own path, as is Bran, doing exactly what they feel they have to do. Rickon, unknown. Only Sansa has been the perpetual hostage. The thing is, she's doing what she feels she has to as well, but she has to do it as a prisoner. My only point is that she isn't given enough credit for this.

No need to be weird about it. You could have just asked what I meant.

Sorry but i got the impression that you thought Sansa had it worst, while I get your point about not having freedom like her siblings, that still doesnt mean that shese had it the worst.

Bran and Rickon were improsoned in thier own Castle, and Arya has been on the run since the end of book one.

Oh and btw some people would rather be improsoned than living a life on the run , its not all that pleasant.

[Fool of a Book]

Sorry but i got the impression that you thought Sansa had it worst, while I get your point about not having freedom like her siblings, that still doesnt mean that shese had it the worst.

Bran and Rickon were improsoned in thier own Castle, and Arya has been on the run since the end of book one.

Oh and btw some people would rather be improsoned than living a life on the run , its not all that pleasant.

Who would rather be imprisoned?

[ARYa_Nym]

"Oldstones, all the smallfolk called it when I was a girl, but no doubt it had some other name when it was still a hall of kings." She had camped here once with her father, on their way to Seagard. Petyr was with us too... "There was a song," he remembered. "Jenny of Oldstones, with flowers in her hair." "We're all just songs in the end. If we're lucky." She had played at being Jenny that day, had even wound flowers in her hair. And Petyr had pretended to be her Prince of Dragonflies. Catelyn could not have been more than twelve, Petry just a boy."

I think Catleyn did care about songs and romance.

See we don't see her fawning over any men except for one second about Jamie but Ned wasn't someone she picked. She could have liked it when she was a girl but she's grown and married now.

& clothes:

"The daughter was tall and lean, the mother short and stout, but they dressed alike in mail and leather, with black bear of House Mormont on shield and sugarcoat. By Catelyn's lights, that was queer garb for a lady, yet Dacey and Lady Maege seemed more comfortable, both as warriors and as women, than ever the girl from Tarth had been."

"Lady Maege's eldest daughter was quite pretty, tall and willowy, with a shy smile that made her face light up. It was pleasant to see that she could be as graceful on the dance floor as in the training yard."

It reminds me of Sansa's observations of Mya:

“Slim and sinewy, Mya looked as though as the old riding leathers she wore beneath her silvery ringmail shirt. Her hair was black as a raven’s wing, so short and shaggy that Alayne suspected she cut it with a dagger. Mya’s eyes were her best feature, big and blue. She could be pretty, if she would dress up like a girl. Alayne found herself wondering whether Ser Lothor liked her best in her iron and leather, or dreamed of her gowned in lace and silk. ”

Catelyn may not have needed to wear the finest material but she cared enough to make herself look presentable. There was no Daena like wearing her hair wild and untamed for example.

As for Robb I think he did have a temper when he fought with Joffrey. Jon has more moments of wanting to attack people though.

Both Ned and Catelyn held grudges. Ned hated Tywin and Jamie and never got over it. Ned is actually the one who pushed for war while Catelyn pushed for peace. I think she gets portrayed as LS often but in life she never was like that. You are what you do imo.

[lulu_pix]

Who would rather be imprisoned?

Freedom and security are often exchanged with one another, Sansa chooses securiyy over freedom, it shows multiple times in how she lies to keep her betrotha to joffrey secure. How she sends a letter to secure her father.

Arya chooses freedom, she is hard to control, and cannot be easily manipulated.

While im not criticising Sansa for her decisions (she is still a little girl and niave at that point) it is very apparent that she chooses the most secure path instead of the risikier path to freedom.

[Blow My Horn]

Lady's death was foreshadowing Sansa's time in the Vale with Littlefinger.

[lulu_pix]

Lady's death was foreshadowing Sansa's time in the Vale with Littlefinger.

Please explain.

[WeddinGuest]

David Selig, I agree that Cat is much more pragmatic and utilitarian than Sansa or Ned are. That being said, Cat not only is older than Sansa, she was actually given education by Hoster on how to rule, and this is where some of her political savvy comes from. Now that Sansa is being tutored by LF, and has already shown signs of seeing political realities such as "if Joff marries Marg, there's a high chance he'll wind up provoking Loras into becoming a Kingslayer himself", though she doesn't make the leap to "therefore the Tyrells will assassinate him"; she is very quick to realize, albeit prompted by LF, that Harry the Heir would inherit the Vale if SR dies; she also sees that LF is using Lyn Corbray as a sockpuppet without LF saying anything about it. In that way, she may be approaching her mother. But she still dreams of the Hound as a lover, imagines the UnKiss, and still hasn't completely given up on the idea of marriage for love. That's not Cat-like at all.

I agree about Bran, it does isolate the issue as to my views on Sansa; the issue would then be the fact that she lacks the variety of Stark traits that other children possess, which is why she is often characterized as being less of a Stark. It is true that Bran is more passive than Arya and Rickon, but he possesses tremendous warg capabilities and an adventurous nature, which makes one believe he is a "Stark at heart" (probably better wording for this).

Robb Stark actually takes much after his dad and this is also heavily noted, it is often said he died in the same way - over honor, for having married the girl who he slept with. Arya and Rickon can warg and have their own share of notable Stark traits, as you say.

In comparison to them, those "northern"/Stark characteristics are much harder to see in Sansa, which is why myself and others say she is "not as much of a Stark".

Bran also dreams of being a knight, which is a definite Southron ambition, and was planning on going to KL with Sansa and Arya, before he was crippled. He really had to be forced to embrace the more traditional Northern ways by his circumstances. I don't think it's out of the question that Sansa will eventually do the same. Not that she'll wind up being a greenseer like Bran, but I certainly won't be surprised if she gains the ability to skinchange into birds. Arya's already skinchanged into cats, after all.

As for Robb being honorable, while Tywin calls him "his father's son" and all, I think this is an over-simplification, it was quite obvious to me that Robb actually fell for Jeyne and was rationalizing his actions. I actually think the "Sybelle/Tywin set Robb up to sleep with Jeyne knowing he'd marry her" theory is full of holes, even though it's supposedly official per the App, because Robb is pretty much the only Stark we know who married the girl he deflowered; the only other significant male character who did this was, ironically, Tyrion, and he married a commoner, something I doubt even Robb would have done.

While I don't think Jon is Ned and Ashara's child, Ashara's stillborn daughter may have been Ned's, and in that case, Ned himself chose to honor the vows to the Tullys over Ashara's honor, and he also let Ashara's rep suffer as a cover for Jon Snow's origins. And if Brandon was the baby-daddy, he certainly didn't care about Ashara's honor, and we know he didn't care about Barbrey's. The Starks did find Barb another husband, and I think this was the most anyone would really have expected Robb to do on Jeyne's behalf. And while I don't like this theory, if it's true, then Robb was certainly being manipulated by others, in a rather similar way to how Sansa was manipulated.

I think ALL the Stark kids have a mix of "Stark" and "Tully" traits, really. Arya is the one who really strongly shades as a "traditional Stark" in terms of looks, temperament, and "old-school" sensibilities, such as taking it upon herself to "execute" Dareon the deserter; but even then, she does steal his boots, and I think that speaks to a pragmatic streak that is more Cat-like than Ned-like (also, notably. the episode occurs when Arya is disguised as "Cat of the Canals").

[ARYa_Nym]

Who would rather be imprisoned?

Well, Gendry and Hot Pie to a lesser extent wanted to stay with the kidnappers twice. In Harrenhal and with the BWB. She gets captured because of her friends on more than one occasion. For example, the BWB found Gendry. She didn't have to go back for him but she did and got captured.

For Gendry it was more secure. He doesn't have to worry as much about where he's going to stay. How he's going to eat. He can benefit from more people around in case of an attack since they will defend their turf, etc.

[Blow My Horn]

Please explain.

She lost her identity as a Stark.

[lulu_pix]

She lost her identity as a Stark.

she looses her identity before the vale through her marriage to the lannisters if thats what you believe it forshadows.

and what does littlefinger have to do with it?

[Blow My Horn]

she looses her identity before the vale through her marriage to the lannisters if thats what you believe it forshadows.

and what does littlefinger have to do with it?

She didn't lose her identity being married to Tyrion. Her identity was the reason she was married to him in the first place. Littlefinger is who creates Alayne Stone.

[lulu_pix]

She didn't lose her identity being married to Tyrion. Her identity was the reason she was married to him in the first place. Littlefinger is who creates Alayne Stone.

Ah ok, see now I get it.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

How is Sansa choosing anything at the point where she testifies she does not remember? she is doing as she is told. Ned hear the truth from her, and yet he is not angry when she feigns amnesia, it is clear Sansa is doing what she has to she is betrothed to Joffrey, not something anyone consults her on its a choice made for her by her parents and Joffreys. She will have to spend her life with this person. What sort of marriage can she expect if in the embryonic stage she goes against him? she takes the only path she can. Neutrality.

If Sansa says no Joff was a jerk she run teh risk that he and his family will forever hold it against her. I highly suspect Ned endordsed this option.

if Sansa tells the truth where does it take her and Lady? she would still end up at KL and cought in the Lannisters web. Lady would still die only later, maybe at KL Sansa has Lady still but teh Wolf attacks her captors. She would still be killed even a direwolf has no chance against an army or Lannister house guards and Gold Cloaks. And Nymeria? how prey tell does Arya hide like a rat in KL with a huge wolf by her side? how does she sneak away disguised as a boy with Nymeria also passing through a city gate? If Lady is not killed and Nymeria run off where are the girls once Ned is arrested? How does Sansa embark upon her journey of humiliation and captivity with a wolf? how can the Kings Guard beat her if Lady is there? how does Arya get captured numerous times in the riverlands with Nymeria by her side? We need her to be captured in order to see the story at Harrenhall and with the BWB inorder for the Hound to abduct her etc. Would they captain of the Bravossi ship accept this monsters wolf as a passenger? can she stalk teh streets of Bravos as a nobody with Nymeria ever present? go unnoticed by the merchant she is sent to kill? Could Sansa sneak away down a cliff ladder with Lady in tow? could Lysa really almost shove her out the Moon Door with lady there? Can she almost be raped several times with Lady her ever present shadow?

[lulu_pix]

How is Sansa choosing anything at the point where she testifies she does not remember? she is doing as she is told. Ned hear the truth from her, and yet he is not angry when she feigns amnesia, it is clear Sansa is doing what she has to she is betrothed to Joffrey, not something anyone consults her on its a choice made for her by her parents and Joffreys. She will have to spend her life with this person. What sort of marriage can she expect if in the embryonic stage she goes against him? she takes the only path she can. Neutrality.

If Sansa says no Joff was a jerk she run teh risk that he and his family will forever hold it against her. I highly suspect Ned endordsed this option.

if Sansa tells the truth where does it take her and Lady? she would still end up at KL and cought in the Lannisters web. Lady would still die only later, maybe at KL Sansa has Lady still but teh Wolf attacks her captors. She would still be killed even a direwolf has no chance against an army or Lannister house guards and Gold Cloaks. And Nymeria? how prey tell does Arya hide like a rat in KL with a huge wolf by her side? how does she sneak away disguised as a boy with Nymeria also passing through a city gate? If Lady is not killed and Nymeria run off where are the girls once Ned is arrested? How does Sansa embark upon her journey of humiliation and captivity with a wolf? how can the Kings Guard beat her if Lady is there? how does Arya get captured numerous times in the riverlands with Nymeria by her side? We need her to be captured in order to see the story at Harrenhall and with the BWB inorder for the Hound to abduct her etc. Would they captain of the Bravossi ship accept this monsters wolf as a passenger? can she stalk teh streets of Bravos as a nobody with Nymeria ever present? go unnoticed by the merchant she is sent to kill? Could Sansa sneak away down a cliff ladder with Lady in tow? could Lysa really almost shove her out the Moon Door with lady there? Can she almost be raped several times with Lady her ever present shadow?

"There was never a slave who did not choose to be a slave. Their choice may be between bondage and death, but the choice is always there".

EDit: Oh and she chooses to say she doesnt remember because it is the most secure path

[WeddinGuest]

I think she gets portrayed as LS often but in life she never was like that. You are what you do imo.

I don't quite agree there; it's not that the living Cat was a peacenik who foreswore vengeance, she just thought it was pointless to pursue it without a good chance of success, She also says she wants to strangle Cersei, seems happy that Robb's forces are pillaging the Westerlands and "paying the Lannisters back in kind", says that Theon should hang in a crow cage to die slowly, has to suppress her excitement when Roose reveals Theon has been captured and flayed, and gets angry at him when he suggests Theon NOT be executed. (Whereas Robb, who also wants Theon dead, seems to accept Roose's contention that keeping Theon as a hostage is more beneficial, and that he could be used as a bartering chip with the Ironborn).

The Cat I see before she's LS'd, is a woman who's struggling between her primal urges for bloody vengeance and her more civilized, pragmatic side that weights the costs and benefits of it. The RW changes that, even before she dies, she cuts the throat of the innocent Jinglebell in revenge, even though it accomplished nothing, Walder could care less that he lost one of his dozens of grandsons. And once Cat dies, and believes all her children are likely dead, and she has nothing to lose, THAT'S when she goes mad for vengeance. But I do think she had the capacity for it all along -- I suspect that if Cat had been held hostage as originally planned, and been eventually rescued by the BWB, she would have sought revenge on the Freys in a similar manner, though I do think she might have been more willing to hear Brienne out instead of hanging her.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Err what? quoting random shit does not answer any of my questions regarding the direction of the plot and story if the girls do not become separated from their wolves.

i ask again If Sansa tells the truth on the Trident and Lady lives How can the girls journeys possibly take the turns they do? The writer can not allow these wolves to go to KL unless both perish there. And I say again Nymeria has a purpose and can't die due to that so another path is taken by the aurthor to separate her from Arya nd Lady is sacrificed for that to happen in a convincing way. The whole trial at the Trident sets up Joff as a twat and Cersei as a cowbag. and Robert as weak and un fit for rule. Sansa can't have a wolf if she is to go on the path the story requires Arya Must be separated from hers.

[lulu_pix]

you said she is doing as she is told, my point is she chooses to doe what she is told.

And GRRM didnt need to have lady killed, he could have sent them both to winterfell or set them free in the woods or whatever.

GRRM did not have to kill lady to get the plot forward he can forward the plot whatever way he wants, simple.

[ARYa_Nym]

I don't quite agree there; it's not that the living Cat was a peacenik who foreswore vengeance, she just thought it was pointless to pursue it without a good chance of success, She also says she wants to strangle Cersei, seems happy that Robb's forces are pillaging the Westerlands and "paying the Lannisters back in kind", says that Theon should hang in a crow cage to die slowly, has to suppress her excitement when Roose reveals Theon has been captured and flayed, and gets angry at him when he suggests Theon NOT be executed. (Whereas Robb, who also wants Theon dead, seems to accept Roose's contention that keeping Theon as a hostage is more beneficial, and that he could be used as a bartering chip with the Ironborn).

The Cat I see before she's LS'd, is a woman who's struggling between her primal urges for bloody vengeance and her more civilized, pragmatic side that weights the costs and benefits of it. The RW changes that, even before she dies, she cuts the throat of the innocent Jinglebell in revenge, even though it accomplished nothing, Walder could care less that he lost one of his dozens of grandsons. And once Cat dies, and believes all her children are likely dead, and she has nothing to lose, THAT'S when she goes mad for vengeance. But I do think she had the capacity for it all along -- I suspect that if Cat had been held hostage as originally planned, and been eventually rescued by the BWB, she would have sought revenge on the Freys in a similar manner, though I do think she might have been more willing to hear Brienne out instead of hanging her.

She also prayed for Cersei though and didn't impulsively get revenge on Jamie. She didn't do it either for Tyrion even though she suspects he attempted to kill her son. She wanted her family home more than she wanted to get vengeance. She even said will their deaths get Ned back?

She was insane by the time she murdered Jinglebells so I don't count that. She was already off the deep end and in perfect transition to become LS. If she really wanted revenge Jinglebells was the worst person in the room to kill. They don't care about him.

LS doesn't believe all her children are dead. The BWB are looking for Arya. They know Brienne has been searching for Sansa unsuccessfully. She doesn't know her sons are still alive except for Robb.

I see Catelyn in life as someone who talked the talk but didn't walk the walk. She only killed in self defense and wouldn't have even accomplished that if not for Tyrion. She has to go mad before she murders someone which means she wasn't in the right frame of mind.

ETA: Basically, I don't agree with framing a character based on their thoughts when their actions don't match up. Arya would be perceived way worse. She's thought about killing her own friends. What matters to me is that she didn't actually do it.

In threads where Catelyn gets attacked the fact that Catelyn never crossed the line allows for her fans to say she's a good person.

If we simply go on her thoughts then in that scenario Roose Bolton has more morals than her but we know that's not true. She's done nothing in life comparable to him.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

If they had been sent to Winterfell they'd both be dead. Theon's sack would have seen to that, or best case scenario they'd be with Bran or Rickon. If as I strongly suspect Nymeria has a purpose in the Riverlands, that screws up her role in the plot. If as I and many others strongly suspect Sansa's fate is to warg birds then having Lady still screws that up. what use is a direwolf if you are thousands of miles from it? Sansa needs to be set adrift in order to hone her skills towards another animal. Birds. As Arya hones hers towards Cats, but she is coming back eventually I am certain and revenge is her desire. she will rip her list to shreds with Nymeria. I suspect. cats will be a secondary string to her bow

My point is that I think the way he wanted to forward the plot requires Lady to die and Nymeria to be sent away . Neds recollection of Lyanna as he thinks of Sansa pleading is a big hint of R+L=J which I do fully believe in. Lady has to be killed for that little nugget.

Sansa is hinted as eventually warging birds and probably dogs too.

But neither could take their wolves to KL and without the Trident that was inevitable. The Trident shows us the true nature of the royal family,it shows us Neds vulnerability when it comes to Lyannas pleas, It shows us the sibling rift between the girls it quickly and simply rids the girls of their wolves which has to happen for the up coming story. Lady was dispensable in the long run and her death enabled the plot to move in the required direction.

I don't think when we examine Sansa anyone can deny she is a Stark to the Bone. people claiming Lady dying signifies her lack of Starkness need to brush up on their reading skills.

[JungWheats]

Losing Lady frees her up to warg birds; especially apt if she ends up using a bird against LF.