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Blazfemur

Ramsay/Joffrey: A Psychological Analysis Of The Two

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Personally, for me this started as just an idea based off of a picture I saw on facebook, but the idea seems pretty enticing, I'll start with: Similarities/Differences in the personal traits of Joffrey and Ramsay.



They both share the same desire for both power, and domination over those they deem inferior (which appears to be, just about anyone that doesn't share their name).



It becomes evident that they both share a superiority complex, Ramsay demonstrates a lack of morality while catering to more primal indulgences, alongside a desire to see the other party's fear to compliment his ability to have control, which is most important in his character.



Joffrey for the most part mimics this idea, however because he has so many others to answer to (Cersei, Tywin, etc), he is somewhat held backbecause of his title as King. If he were anyone else, and grew up without parental role models like Ramsay did, I'd like to think he would be somewhat of a carbon copy. I realize Ramsay had his mother, and Reek (1.0) growing up, however they weren't the family and foundation Joffrey was spoiled into.



Because of Cersei, and Tywin, and their vanity as well as dignity in appearance, Joffrey has inadvertantly inherited pride, a taste for lavish indulgences. Because of this, Joffrey would never dirty his hands directly when dealing with those beneath him, instead having others, whether they want to or not, do the dirtywork for him (i.e. beating sansa, decapitating ned, etc). It would be beneath the king to soil his expensive clothing, have an underling do it.



Obviously, this is where Ramsay differs, as Ramsay harbors the ultimate in both taboo and dominative indulgence. There is definitely even a sexual liberation in the victimization he demonstrates, as seen in the Theon/Jeyne scene. There is no pride and vanity here, no need to look good in front of others and be accepted as Joffrey might need, just pure animalistic domination over other human beings.




Now, for the fun part.




What if Joffrey, became victim of Ramsay?




Ramsay, seeing Joffrey as a bastard (taking Stannis' gossip to heart), becomes jealous that he was never destined for greatness, and somehow bags Joffrey, drags him out of the city over to the dreadfort via a littlefinger scheme or otherwise.



I'd like to think Ramsay would take particular interest in dehumanizing Joff, stripping all his luxaries and titles from his mind, one by one. Joffrey of course, would begin hurling all the things he would do to Ramsay once people realize he's missing, once they discover Ramsay was the one who took him. Joffrey would threaten Ramsay with all of Westeros, and Ramsay would sit back and smile, probably letting him get it all out before taking action.



Ultimately, Joffrey's death would include a scalped head (stripping of the crown), several digits missing, perhaps even sodomy as Theon's chapters sometimes suggest (not confirmed), to show full domination of the crown, and his superiority over the "great king."



On the other hand, if Ramsay became victim to Joffrey, say somewhere in King's Landing, I want to believe it wouldn't be just Joffrey there. Whereas Ramsay would take someone behind closed doors and torture them to complete submission and agony, Joffrey would invertly make a spectacle for all to see. I'd even envision Joffrey forcing Roose to look on, perhaps even have him take the killing blow to demonstrate his loyalty, if it came down to it. Roose would, not only to look good in the eyes of the crown, but because deep down he's always wanted to do away with ramsay (for being so blatantly obvious about what goes on behind closed doors).



I dont think Ramsay would cry, or beg for his life. I think he's beyond that, which is the ultimate difference between him and Joffrey. Joffrey would angrilly threaten, then beg for his life, tears streaming down from his face until passing out from shock or trauma. Ramsay I think, would scream in pain if applicable, or give a dead stare, silent, until death.


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Both of them are psychopathic with a lot of sexual sadism, but they are quite different creatures.



Joffrey was raised to believe in his own superiority, and has the utmost sort of class arrogance. He doesn't need to pretend he is highborn - he knows it. The view that (once king) everyone is his to torment is just something he considers part of the natural order. I think in some way he does not understand that he cannot harm peasants for sport, or threaten to rape someone else's wife. Not literally that they won't be mad, but that their feelings have no consequence; their natural role is to submit to him, and if they are not doing so and resist him then they are somehow defective. Even his younger siblings are treated as worthy of scorn and abuse. When Joffrey tells lies, he expects that other people must accept his lies because of his status. Joffrey can be charming when it suits him, but it is only another part of his general disdain for others; as soon as he has no need to be nice, he'll stop.


Deep down though, Joffrey is such a mama's boy, and despite all his advantaged background, is not that dangerous and quite fearful of any real challenge. Robb Stark was able to outmatch Joffrey in sparring, and when Joffrey thought he could escalate and make Robb beg off, Robb did not back down. Arya Stark utterly shamed him, and she's a small girl; worse, Joffrey's father and mother and others could see his inadequacy (not to mention his lies). He puts down Sansa for being weak and unintelligent, but cannot take it (or does not realize it) when she shows him up. Even when mad, he had to get his kingsguard to beat her for him, as if he could not manage it himself. Tyrion is infuriating because he treats Joffrey like he's a ill-disciplined dog requiring a newspaper swat on the ass (and there is truth to this). Tywin is an old man and Joffrey cannot fathom why he must bend to his wishes, and yet Tywin can easily intimidate him, and has all the real power.


Joffrey is a bully, but like most bullies, he is a weakling when it counts.



Ramsay Snow was raised to be taught his own inferiority; he is quite openly a bastard born out of an act of rape and murder. His mother seems to consider him a burden; his father, a liability. Ramsay fills himself with a sort of artificially constructed pride, that he is Roose Bolton's truest son, that Roose was smitten with his mother (not just bored and casually looking for a hole to stick his cock in). Ramsay's got that whole weird relationship with Reek, and they bond because they are both reviled misfits. With Ramsay, it is all about proving himself to the old man, and earning being a Bolton through bold acts, because if he can't earn it he's just some backwoods hick who is of no consequence. The one lesson Ramsay seems to have taken from Roose is that peoples' fear of you is very useful.


However, do not mistake Ramsay for some harmless lonely little boy. Ramsay is an absolute predator, brutal and sadistic, but more than willing to get his own hands dirty (perhaps too willing, Roose might observe). Ramsay loves to be feared, to hear the pain in peoples' cries, to see the terror in their eyes, and to be able to break their spirits before destroying them. It is sexual too - he is a man turned on by his own (deliberate) depravity. Ramsay is a dangerous man, in personal terms; his unrefined malice even shows in his combat style, but he is simply belligerent to care about style. He's that backwoods serial killer archetype, and if that means playing the newly legitimized lord, so be it; if that means cunningly escaping punishment as a fugitive, so be it; if that means sadistically rending peoples' flesh simply because he can, so be it. Though Roose may ultimately be just as callous and cruel, Ramsay simply gives no fucks about who knows it, feeling anyone who objects can be made into his next victim. He will never stop, not until someone (fatally) stops him.



Comparing the two, they are both vile scumbags and psychopaths; neither one has a conscience. In their style, Joffrey is more refined, and more convinced of his own superiority. When he hurts people it is because in his own way he figures they deserve it for being less than him, or for daring to suggest he needs any restraint. Ramsay is more like a hungry beast that just has to devour and destroy all around him - the greater the atrocity, the happier the beast is, but the hunger remains.



Joffrey in Ramsay's power would not last one day before becoming a sobbing mass of jelly. He has simply never be the tormented instead of the tormentor, and this much of it would break him, easily.



Ramsay under Joffrey's power would endure surprisingly much, but he would would accept his gory end more readily. However, I think he'd try to turn his cloak in the blink of an eye, and offer to become the one who makes Joffrey's sadism truly flower.


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Both of them are psychopathic with a lot of sexual sadism, but they are quite different creatures.

Joffrey was raised to believe in his own superiority, and has the utmost sort of class arrogance. He doesn't need to pretend he is highborn - he knows it. The view that (once king) everyone is his to torment is just something he considers part of the natural order. I think in some way he does not understand that he cannot harm peasants for sport, or threaten to rape someone else's wife. Not literally that they won't be mad, but that their feelings have no consequence; their natural role is to submit to him, and if they are not and resist him then they are somehow defective. Even his younger siblings are treated as worthy of scorn and abuse. When Joffrey tells lies, he expects that other people must accept his lies because of his status. Joffrey can be charming when it suits him, but it is only another part of his general disdain for others; as soon as he has no need to be nice, he'll stop.

Deep down though, Joffrey is such a mama's boy, and despite all his advantaged background, is not that dangerous and quite fearful of any real challenge. Robb Stark was able to outmatch Joffrey in sparring, and when Joffrey thought he could escalate and make Robb beg off, Robb did not back down. Arya Stark utterly shamed him, and she's a small girl; worse, Joffrey's father and mother and others could see his inadequacy (not to mention his lies). He puts down Sansa for being weak and unintelligent, but cannot take it (or does not realize it) when she shows him up. Even when mad, he had to get his kingsguard to beat her for him, as if he could not manage it himself. Tyrion is infuriating because he treats Joffrey like he's a ill-disciplined dog requiring a newspaper swat on the ass (and there is truth to this). Tywin is an old man and Joffrey cannot fathom why he must bend to his wishes, and yet Tywin can easily intimidate him, and has all the real power.

Joffrey is a bully, but like most bullies, he is a weakling when it counts.

Ramsay Snow was raised to be taught his own inferiority; he is quite openly a bastard born out of an act of rape and murder. His mother seems to consider him a burden; his father, a liability. Ramsay fills himself with a sort of artificially constructed pride, that he is Roose Bolton's truest son, that Roose was smitten with his mother (not just bored and casually looking for a hole to stick his cock in). Ramsay's got that whole weird relationship with Reek, and they bond because they are both reviled misfits. With Ramsay, it is all about proving himself to the old man, and earning being a Bolton through bold acts, because if he can't earn it he's just some backwoods hick who is of no consequence. The one lesson Ramsay seems to have taken from Roose is that peoples' fear of you is very useful.

However, do not mistake Ramsay for some harmless lonely little boy. Ramsay is an absolute predator, brutal and sadistic, but more than willing to get his own hands dirty (perhaps too willing, Roose might observe). Ramsay loves to be feared, to hear the pain in peoples' cries, to see the terror in their eyes, and to be able to break their spirits before destroying them. It is sexual too - he is a man turned on by his own (deliberate) depravity. Ramsay is a dangerous man, in personal terms; his unrefined malice even shows in his combat style, but he is simply belligerent to care about style. He's that backwoods serial killer archetype, and if that means playing the newly legitimized lord, so be it; if that means cunningly escaping punishment as a fugitive, so be it; if that means sadistically rending peoples' flesh simply because he can, so be it. Though Roose may ultimately be just as callous and cruel, Ramsay simply gives no fucks about who knows it, feeling anyone who objects can be made into his next victim. He will never stop, not until someone (fatally) stops him.

Comparing the two, they are both vile scumbags and psychopaths; neither one has a conscience. In their style, Joffrey is more refined, and more convinced of his own superiority. When he hurts people it is because in his own way he figures they deserve it for being less than him, or for daring to suggest he needs any restraint. Ramsay is more like a hungry beast that just has to devour and destroy all around him - the greater the atrocity, the happier to beast is, but the hunger remains.

Joffrey in Ramsay's power would not last one day before becoming a sobbing mass of jelly. He has simply never be the tormented instead of the tormentor, and this much of it would break him, easily.

Ramsay under Joffrey's power would endure surprisingly much, but he would would accept his gory end more readily. However, I think he'd try to turn his cloak in the blink of an eye, and offer to become the one who makes Joffrey's sadism truly flower.

there is a turning point in agot, when joffrey becomes who he becomes. it's actually almost marked in the chapter when sansa and joff stumble on arya and the other kid. the turning point in joffrey's behavior, is marked when arya strikes him behind the head with her branch or whatever it was she was holding, a broomstick maybe it was.

i think sansa's reaction was something along the lines of, "stop, stop, you're ruining it."

there is emphasis on "it," here. from that strike to the back of the head, joffrey's charming side ceases to exist, and he's the calculating, conniving, cold brat that hardly ever shows any sign of charm henceforth. symbolically, arya did ruin it, as that was the last time we ever see merciful, gracious joffrey.

not to insinuate that strike caused brain damage and turned him that way, im sure he always was that way, but in the story, this is the first moment and marks the end of us ever seeing the other side of him.

...because arya ruined it.

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"I think in some way he does not understand that he cannot harm peasants for sport, or threaten to rape someone else's wife. Not literally that they won't be mad, but that their feelings have no consequence; their natural role is to submit to him, and if they are not and resist him then they are somehow defective."



Are you taling about Joffrey the elder Ramsey or the majority of the nobility in general. What you quote is eaxtly what the Elder Bolton does to Ramsey's mother. Further it's pretty much how a lot of nobles see the peasentry. What is more this is not just some fantasy characteristic that GRRM has dreamed up its how the nobility saw the peasentry in the Middle Ages. Your view of Joffrey is anachronistic, yes these traits would be seen as deviant today but in the Middle Ages among the nobility, or among the general nobility of Westeros? Joffreys actions and those of the elder Bolton are extreme examples of generally accepted attitudes and behavior among the nobility.




"your ruinning it"



I think this refers to her delusions of not only Joffrey personally but her unrealistic view of marrying the handsome chivorous Prince stereotype that she has in her mind.



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there is a turning point in agot, when joffrey becomes who he becomes. it's actually almost marked in the chapter when sansa and joff stumble on arya and the other kid. the turning point in joffrey's behavior, is marked when arya strikes him behind the head with her branch or whatever it was she was holding, a broomstick maybe it was.

i think sansa's reaction was something along the lines of, "stop, stop, you're ruining it."

there is emphasis on "it," here. from that strike to the back of the head, joffrey's charming side ceases to exist, and he's the calculating, conniving, cold brat that hardly ever shows any sign of charm henceforth. symbolically, arya did ruin it, as that was the last time we ever see merciful, gracious joffrey.

not to insinuate that strike caused brain damage and turned him that way, im sure he always was that way, but in the story, this is the first moment and marks the end of us ever seeing the other side of him.

...because arya ruined it.

Well, I think that there's a turning point in that chapter but it's not in Joffrey's mind, it's in Sansa's. That's the first time, in fact, that she sees Joffrey for who he really is.

From Sansa's point of view, Joffrey was a wonderful prince until then (and, at least in her POVs, that's how he's described), but for the first time, even she gets to see what's underneath his facede (although she won't understand who he really is for quite a long time).

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Are you taling about Joffrey the elder Ramsey or the majority of the nobility in general. What you quote is eaxtly what the Elder Bolton does to Ramsey's mother. Further it's pretty much how a lot of nobles see the peasentry.... yes these traits would be seen as deviant today but in the Middle Ages among the nobility, or among the general nobility of Westeros?

It's not unheard of for nobles to treat peasants like this, but most do not and it is frowned upon and sometimes punished.

The feudal system was pretty dehumanizing to commoners, but nobles could not literally do anything they wanted because these were still people, and laws did exist in regard to their conduct too. Even where laws failed, there was always the possibility of rebellion or assassination to consider.

As such, Bolton's continuance of "first night" and skinning practices would draw the ire of their overlords the Starks. Roose knows that "a peaceful land, a quiet people" is best to avoid making enemies; Ramsay's defect is that he does these sick things in the open and does not care who knows it.

I think this refers to her delusions of not only Joffrey personally but her unrealistic view of marrying the handsome chivorous Prince stereotype that she has in her mind.

Indeed. Or at least she means her date with Joffrey and all that would have followed (as I recall, she goes on to yell that Arya's ruining "everything").

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Well, I think that there's a turning point in that chapter but it's not in Joffrey's mind, it's in Sansa's. That's the first time, in fact, that she sees Joffrey for who he really is.

From Sansa's point of view, Joffrey was a wonderful prince until then (and, at least in her POVs, that's how he's described), but for the first time, even she gets to see what's underneath his facede (although she won't understand who he really is for quite a long time).

Good points!

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I believe both of them can be considered as pathological psychopaths. Which leads me to believe that they have a narcissistic personality disorder: they use other people in order to satisfy their own goals. Joffrey wants to instigate fear, he was hungry for power. Ramsay Snow want control more than actual power. Maybe their motivations are really not so different, the only main difference between them being their modus operandi and their upbringing.

Joffrey was born into royalty, Snow is a bastard. Then again, this some how's validates their own respective savagery: Joffrey, as king, can do as he pleases. Snow, on the other hand, being bastard, and living in a society which places bastards in the lowest ranks, social determinism giving him the go to unleash his barbarism. "He's a bastard, it's in their nature."

Joffrey seems to be more akin to social humiliation in addition to physical and psychological torture; this affinity for more "public" displays of sadism can be explained by the importance of social life and appearance at court. There may be an element of exhibitionism there, in which he likes to display as much as he likes to inflict torment.

As for Ramsay, he seems to like to strip his victims of all forms of privacy or intimacy, stripping them of even their own identity. Humiliation is less public, but he controls every aspect of the victim's life. Maybe because of his upbringing as a bastard, as a means to show his ability to control in a world I which bastards hold little to no power. When he is legitimized as a Bolton, this inspires him to push his atrocities even further (Note that it has been a while since I read the books, so when it comes to Ramsay I can be a bit mixed up)

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I believe both of them can be considered as pathological psychopaths. Which leads me to believe that they have a narcissistic personality disorder: they use other people in order to satisfy their own goals. Joffrey wants to instigate fear, he was hungry for power. Ramsay Snow want control more than actual power. Maybe their motivations are really not so different, the only main difference between them being their modus operandi and their upbringing.

Joffrey was born into royalty, Snow is a bastard. Then again, this some how's validates their own respective savagery: Joffrey, as king, can do as he pleases. Snow, on the other hand, being bastard, and living in a society which places bastards in the lowest ranks, social determinism giving him the go to unleash his barbarism. "He's a bastard, it's in their nature."

Joffrey seems to be more akin to social humiliation in addition to physical and psychological torture; this affinity for more "public" displays of sadism can be explained by the importance of social life and appearance at court. There may be an element of exhibitionism there, in which he likes to display as much as he likes to inflict torment.

As for Ramsay, he seems to like to strip his victims of all forms of privacy or intimacy, stripping them of even their own identity. Humiliation is less public, but he controls every aspect of the victim's life. Maybe because of his upbringing as a bastard, as a means to show his ability to control in a world I which bastards hold little to no power. When he is legitimized as a Bolton, this inspires him to push his atrocities even further (Note that it has been a while since I read the books, so when it comes to Ramsay I can be a bit mixed up)

love it all.

whereas joffrey's atrocities are public and in the eyes for all to see, ramsay's are more private and for his eyes only.

there is a sort of personality conflict id say, within joffrey's mind. i'd insinuate the need to have all his acts in front of people, to be a sign as both a craving for attention, but also a craving to be accepted. he does it for shock value id think and for fear, but that fear underlies publically, he may be arrogant but it gives sgns for wanting attention.

there is an underlying need to be liked there it seems. that need typically comes from an inferiority complex, which i think we all can agree joffrey doesn't have, does he? taking into consideration joffrey's elders, jaime, tywin, even robert baratheon. could joffrey's cravign for attention and need to be feared and liked stem from an inferiority complex of his elders (particularly tywin i would assume, i dont think cersei would play a role here).

the lannister children each get more innocent the further down the age line you go. joffrey being the most corrupt, myrcella may demonstrate the half-way point between joffrey and tommen if the dorne storyline plays out, while tommen being such an example of innocence, george has him playing and rolling around with kittens -- literally.

joffreys sex and age places a burden on him perhaps, growing up under the eyes of robert, cersei, jaime and especially tywin. this could have aided int he twisting of his mind, the need to rebel. i can see a constant putting down of joffrey, twisting his mind into hateful results. we dont see it in the books because by the time this happens joffreys already king, and no one at this point would dare talk ill of joffrey to his face.

point being, joffrey was given the most attention growing up, both positive andnegative, though i tend to think it may have been more negative which resulted in his personality traits. myrcella had less of that negativity growing up, and tommen the least, thus mking tommen perhaps an exact inverse of what joffrey was mentally.

breaking apart ramsay: ramsays exploits being so private, so one on one, it makes each torture and kill more personable, more vengeful, more emotionally driven. there is someone there he hates, and it isnt the victim he's with at the time i believe. he hates his upbringing, and dont EVER call him a bastard or feel his wrath. id like to attribute this behavior as a hatred for his mother. his mother was the cause for his upbringing. her low birth. if she had been a betetr person of higher birth, he never would have been raised in such a fashion.

id like to think his tendencies are a serial killer basis off of an extreme dislike for his mother -- which goes hand in hand for his extreme dislike and disrespect for females (the "hunting" expeditions where he lets his dogs hunt them down, and he kills, rapes, and names his dogs after the women he's killed). there hints abuse in his upbringing, which may have kindled and added to the mix. in his eyes, he may be imagining his mother in each and every victim.

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i semi-disagree with you ClashOfQueens. the narcissistic complex is evident in Ramsay, even a god-complex to control every single aspect of one's life. while joffrey may demonstrate a narcissistic complex, i think thats stemmed from an inferiority complex, if that makes ANY sense at all. public narcissism as a direct result and forced remedy for his own inferiority to his elders.


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"As such, Bolton's continuance of "first night" and skinning practices would draw the ire of their overlords the Starks. Roose knows that "a peaceful land, a quiet people" is best to avoid making enemies; Ramsay's defect is that he does these sick things in the open and does not care who knows it."



But I think that the line is drawn at another point.



Ned goes after Bear because he sold two pouchers to slavers. However, nothing happens to to Bolton for raping his peasants new wife or killing the peasant. Yes there are boundaries and raping commeners is seen as rude and crude behavior that "real" nobles don't do, but it's scene as a sign of bad manners and possibly bad character but not something you actually punish a noble for. After all Ned and the rest of the Stark's know that Ramsey is a bastard and the back story is no secret.


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Ned goes after Bear because he sold two pouchers to slavers. However, nothing happens to to Bolton for raping his peasants new wife or killing the peasant. Yes there are boundaries and raping commeners is seen as rude and crude behavior that "real" nobles don't do, but it's scene as a sign of bad manners and possibly bad character but not something you actually punish a noble for. After all Ned and the rest of the Stark's know that Ramsey is a bastard and the back story is no secret.

Not sure Ned knew the circumstances, but even assuming he did, Roose could claim it was consensual and who would contradict this? He could claim the husband was a brute and the wife was thanking him sexually for saving her, but turned bitter when Roose did not want her for more.

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I like where this conversation is heading, and it's taking a kind of a psychodynamic turn.

Maybe,as you mentioned, Joff needs to prove himself, his drive for his psychopathy maybe it is to be as feared as Tywin, Robert and Jamie. Men who are feared and respected. Being the Elder, spoiled child with predisposition to psychopathy and narcissistic personality traits, after the death of Robert and the capture of Jamie he sees this moment as an opportunity to become as much, if not more, feared than the male role models he had. He was overprotected by Cercei, and seeing young men his age training and hearing stories of young Robert and Jamie at tourneys and wars could only increase his desperate inferiority complex. Maybe he did see his mother as a threat to his own manliness and ambition, and it could be transposed into Sansa's torment at court.

The point you raise with Ramsay is interesting. Despoiling Theon of his identity may be a parallel to the condition of being a bastard, unconsciously making a highborn man live in the skin of a nobody. His hatred for women and the hatred of his mother are really interesting parallels.

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i semi-disagree with you ClashOfQueens. the narcissistic complex is evident in Ramsay, even a god-complex to control every single aspect of one's life. while joffrey may demonstrate a narcissistic complex, i think thats stemmed from an inferiority complex, if that makes ANY sense at all. public narcissism as a direct result and forced remedy for his own inferiority to his elders.

Narcissistic personality disorder affected people tend to be really insecure and inferiority complexes are not that rare among diagnosed people. It can be translated in a god complex as Ramsay, by you did point out that calling him a bastard would unstabilize his emotions, making him furious. This results from an unstable self-esteem, maybe from his background as a bastard.

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"point being, joffrey was given the most attention growing up, both positive andnegative, though i tend to think it may have been more negative which resulted in his personality traits. myrcella had less of that negativity growing up, and tommen the least, thus mking tommen perhaps an exact inverse of what joffrey was mentally."



We know Cerci was a dotting mother and Jaime physically around but there is no evidence that Tywin was a major influence in Joffrey's life prior to the beginning of the story. Indeed, we know Joffrey would have been raised in Kings Landing close to his supposed father but Tywin was no where near during most of his life as Tywin was not on the small Council or had any other official post in Robert's tenure except for being warden of the west.



Joffrey was simply a spoiled overindulged Prince with an overbearing mother. His problems are not so much brought on by his upbringing (spoiled children do not normally develop into serial killers) but seem to be organic. Taking into account that madness runs in the Trg line, this is the best and perhaps only clue that he is a Targ. Ramsey on the other side seems to be a product of his upbringing. Being the result of rape, having Reek as his only associate and having Bolton as a father is certainly cause enough to have some very real issues.




"Not sure Ned knew the circumstances, but even assuming he did, Roose could claim it was consensual and who would contradict this? He could claim the husband was a brute and the wife was thanking him sexually for saving her, but turned bitter when Roose did not want her for more."



Well at least Roose's story would have given Ned cover to do nothing over something he might have felt personnally squimish about but which society would not view with great concern.

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careful, it was never said that upbringing alone is a cause for psychopathy. We spoke of personality traits as well. Upbringing does definetly play a role in how his personality evolved, since the person is in constant interaction with his environment.

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i'd also like to add Cersei's apparent hatred for men into the mix which may have came out on Joffrey. cersei always wanted to be said ruler and always hated that she was born a woman. forced to wed against her will, she would definitely harbor a hatred for those above her and the male line. this could have been demonstrated as verbal and mental abuse toward her eldest son, who would be true heir even before her if and when robert would die on the throne.



on a side note, the exception to this rule and her hatred for men, the only male she connects with, is her own mirror imaged male.



eta: actually, add rhaegar to that as well, i think i remember her saying how beautiful he was soemwhere


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