Lady Gwynhyfvar Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 I assume Wylla and/or some midwife would have been there. That is a terrible vision, what could I possibly have done to you to deserve having that implanted in my imagination?...out evil image!...out!She may have been there (we don't know for sure, tbh) but maybe not immediately.Oh come on, there's nothing evil about the image of Gerold Hightower tenderly nursing a newborn babe.Just reeeeeeally creepy. :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roddy the Ruin Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 I think they had a Northern marriage on the Isle if the Faces. And they might have had a Septon there as well, but not for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hajk Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 She may have been there (we don't know for sure, tbh) but maybe not immediately. But the point is, they could have run with the baby. Perhaps to the Dayne's place close by. If Lyanna was dying she wouldn't be in a position to provide any care for the baby anyhow. Oh come on, there's nothing evil about the image of Gerold Hightower tenderly nursing a newborn babe. I'm too traumatized to attempt a coherent response. :eek: :bawl: :ack: :stillsick: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOT A TARG I SWEAR Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Newborn babies need a mum. Unless you envision lactating KG? Somewhere at this very moment, Arthur Dayne's honor is just a little turned on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Guapo Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 My answer is: who cares? There is no way to prove it in universe, so it'd completely irrelevant. Pretty much this. Like everything else in the game of thrones people are going to believe what they want to believe. Whether they were "married" or not at the time is irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred of Ashai Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 I think they were married in front of a heart tree, Northern style. I think Bran will find this out via the weirwood network. As Ygrain and King of the Starks point out, there is really no other good explanation for the behavior of the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy. Why fight to the death to keep Ned from his sister? Because they've gotten word of the sack of King's Landing (and the murder of Rhaegar's children) and they think the rebels are going to kill every possible Targaryen heir.There is no reason to think they knew that Aegon was dead. They were guarding Lyanna because even if she went willingly with Rhaegar, the seconds Rhaegar died she became a hostage, just like Elia before her and Sansa after her.In other words, the best way for the King's guards to protect Aegon, Rhaella and Viserys from Robert and Ned was to get Lyanna to Dragonstone and threaten to kill her if anyone invaded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred of Ashai Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Here we go...Aerys had Jaime, the City Watch, possibly other household guards and a walled city that only fell due to the treachery of one of his advisors on the inside.Viserys had Willem Darry, the Targaryen fleet, and a large body of water protecting him...and Robert had no fleet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 If R+L hadn't have gotten married then the KG wouldn't have stayed at the ToJ after they got the news of Rhaegar's, Aerys' and Aegon's death. If they weren't married then Jon isn't a legitimate Targ, and therefore the KG would've gone to Viserys, who would've been the next Targ King, and not bothered to protect a Targ bastard. Agree. They told that they were there because they swore a vow. So, he is trueborn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Creighton Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 That's nice but they swore to protect the king, not the world. If they are protecting the world while leaving King Viserys unprotected, they are breaking their KG vows - only, they explicitely say they are keeping them.They broke a lot of vows, don't recall Viserys getting crowned either, last I checked they were not with the actual king. I don't recall any point in which the King said abduct Lyanna Stark please, go into hiding please, never return to KL please.It's hypothesis driven by fans in an effort to convince people it's true. You can interpret the text multiple ways, and it's not to claim you're wrong, but it's not a fact and you some others should stop trying to make it so. Let Martin do that. I see this argument way to often, it's old, and stale. It's circular because nobody has the facts, so it can't actually be answered. And it matters little as it's world where people can be legitimized, is next to impossible for the character to prove to the general public as the world is filled with lies, corruption and skeptics.How important is it when some fans who support the Theory that he is the rightful king don't have him as the King of Westeros but the King of the North more times than not? Seems to me the author wouldn't build up this huge secret about Jon that he is the great secret king of Westeros then say he is the King in the North, cause he liked Robb. It would make the whole point of the theory pointless. So I may have to call into question some of the supporters of one idea or the other. Or maybe both.Is it a desire to see Jon as King (well king in the north) or is it a desire to write a love story around Rhaegar and Lyanna? Oh and a tree married them, that's right isn't it, that was part of the theory? And they were secretly wed by a tree.The so called theories around Jon keep expanding and becoming thinner and thinner. Granted I except fans have been waiting a long time for this, but I am not so sure writing your own story about the character is going to make it happen any sooner. For all I know this story is all about the cripple the BASTARD, and the broken thing. Look text evidence, well this is Martin dropping a clue that Jon is in fact a bastard. See how easy it is?The KG were guarding Lyanna but they were not happy about it. Also said they could not say no to orders. The author, so I will just stick with what he says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roddy the Ruin Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Somewhere at this very moment, Arthur Dayne's honor is just a little turned on....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 They are the KINGSguard, they are supposed to guard the KING. Not guard the crown prince's mistress and her bastard and leave only the most junior member, who is actually more of a hostage, to do their actual job.And you think they were being kept updated about the distribution of the other KG after Rhaegar left? She may have been there (we don't know for sure, tbh) but maybe not immediately.Oh come on, there's nothing evil about the image of Gerold Hightower tenderly nursing a newborn babe.Just reeeeeeally creepy. :PNipples on breastplate would finally come to some use and bust the most popular Westerosi proverb But the point is, they could have run with the baby. Perhaps to the Dayne's place close by. If Lyanna was dying she wouldn't be in a position to provide any care for the baby anyhow.The Dayne place isn't that close by, it's still days' to weeks' travel. Besides, Jon's best protection is secrecy, and that would have been seriously compromised at Starfall. They would need a new hideout, and a safe passage. Arranging these would take time, and the arrangements may well have been under way when Ned turned up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carter209 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 I don't think it'll matter in the long run whether he's legitimate or not. Since I have to pick, I'll go with legitimate, but not because he'll go for the Throne. He'll be legitimate to further drive home that who's king doesn't matter, since then the two dynastic heirs (Stannis and Jon) are nowhere near any position to become king, while pretenders and usurpers try to become King/Queen in the South. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faydra Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 I think he married Lyanna even if he did meant for Jon to be a ruler (seems like the only honourable thing to do in the given situation). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hajk Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 The Dayne place isn't that close by, it's still days' to weeks' travel. Besides, Jon's best protection is secrecy, and that would have been seriously compromised at Starfall. They would need a new hideout, and a safe passage. Arranging these would take time, and the arrangements may well have been under way when Ned turned up. But not too far to take a baby (if Lyanna was irrelevant). And at Starfall, he is a baby no one expects, who can be attributed to anyone they wish (e.g. Wylla or whoever). In fact no one would even be looking for Jon as no one knows anything about him. Staying at TOJ with conspicuous security detail compromises security more than any baby-napping would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cubarey Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 "But why bother with Lyanna at all? Once the baby is there they can run away with him. What makes Lyanna relevant to them?" If (and yes it's not automatic) we believe J+L were lovers and married then the KC stayying put is quite reasonable. They are not going anywhere with a 9th month pregnant woman. After the birth not only would Jon be the uncrowned King but L the Queen mother and best bet for Regent. What's more likely that they immediately abduct the king from the Queen mother or wait a few days till she is well enough to travel? If she survives Lyanna could possibly turn the Stark's and Tullys if not the Baratheon, those loyal to the Targs would also be much more likely to not bend knee to Robert. As it worked out they might have done better by abducting the newborn King, but these were been who valued not only their oaths but their honor and sophisticated enough to knoe that a live and in charge L gave Jon a hell of a lot better chance of surviving then 4 knights by themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 But not too far to take a baby (if Lyanna was irrelevant). And at Starfall, he is a baby no one expects, who can be attributed to anyone they wish (e.g. Wylla or whoever). In fact no one would even be looking for Jon as no one knows anything about him. Staying at TOJ with conspicuous security detail compromises security more than any baby-napping would. Baby itself is inconspicuous, that's for sure, but the three KG aren't. They are basically a red flag drawing attention to a place where they have absolutely no busines being. It would be better for them not to go to Starfall at all but rather hide in its vicinity and wait for a ship to take them to Essos or elsewhere where they wouldn't be identified so easily. As for ToJ, as long as its location is unknown, its security details attract no attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred of Ashai Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Baby itself is inconspicuous, that's for sure, but the three KG aren't. They are basically a red flag drawing attention to a place where they have absolutely no busines being. It would be better for them not to go to Starfall at all but rather hide in its vicinity and wait for a ship to take them to Essos or elsewhere where they wouldn't be identified so easily. As for ToJ, as long as its location is unknown, its security details attract no attention.They can't go to Essos because the King's guard does not flee, then or now. They can go to Starfall, or at least Arthur Dayne could, since he has a reason to go there.The only reason to stay at the TOJ is to guard their hostage, Lyanna, who can't be moved yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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