R + L = J v 72

[Black Crow]

Huh, generally speaking we here in the main room look at him as the product of two parents.

Have you discussed parthenogenesis in Heresy much?

http://cheezburger.com/5826246656

:cool4:

Not that I can recall, no. :cool4:

Seriously though, there's a pretty broad agreement that R+L=J, but that while the Targaryen side is certainly contributing something, just as Bloodraven is part Targaryen part Blackwood, Lyanna the mother is more important - and that Danaerys Targaryen shouldn't be forgotten so far as the Fire side goes and has a more important role to play in this than merely being the means of delivering one or more dragons to Westeros

[FrozenFire3]

Not that I can recall, no. :cool4:

Seriously though, there's a pretty broad agreement that R+L=J, but that while the Targaryen side is certainly contributing something, just as Bloodraven is part Targaryen part Blackwood, Lyanna the mother is more important - and that Danaerys Targaryen shouldn't be forgotten so far as the Fire side goes and has a more important role to play in this than merely being the means of delivering one or more dragons to Westeros

Such a narrative build-up needs a powerful payoff, both in terms of plot development and emotional fallout. If only (or mainly) his Stark heritage was important, why bothering to make Jon half-Targaryen? Being Ned's bastard would have genetically and narratively sufficed. In this case, as in any other case, I'm all for gender parity ;)

[Buried Treasure]

Such a narrative build-up needs a powerful payoff, both in terms of plot development and emotional fallout. If only (or mainly) his Stark heritage was important, why bothering to make Jon half-Targaryen? Being Ned's bastard would have genetically and narratively sufficed. In this case, as in any other case, I'm all for gender parity ;)

There is an economy of storytelling to having had Rhaegar be Jon’s father. The same events that gave Jon his original / current identity as an ‘Outsider Stark’ also contributed to the backstory setting with Robert’s Rebellion and the overthrown dynasty. If Lyanna had been kidnapped by, say, an Umber, Jon could still have had the same outsider status but there would not have been the same narrative neatness as that would then be entirely seperate from the events that shaped the 7Ks as we first saw. Even if Jon had been the bastard of Ned + Ashara then events leading to his conception of birth are a mere footnote to the war, by having Rhaegar + Lyanna then the solution to the whodunnit mystery that was spelled out several times in AGOT is directly tied to the main cause of the events in the backstory.

If we are talking about the plot significance of Rhaegar being Jon’s father going forward, then it splits into the magical and the political:

Magically, Jon got warging from his Stark mother and let’s say he gets dragon affinity from his Targaryen father. Those are two seperate things, like if a kid inherits the ability to roll his tongue from one parent and male pattern baldness from the other then he has inherited two traits. I don’t see that inheriting two sets of magic would change the way either magic works, and frankly if it does I may well decamp to the ‘Jon Snow is a Mary Sue’ club because bollocks to Jon being Super Special Squared *with Sparkles*. Rhaegar apparantly attached some significance to ‘ice and fire’ but it need not be that Ice + Fire = Special but that the person who may save the world on their own merits as a leader might happen to have those two bloodlines – a general may be bald and roll his tongue as a party trick but it will be different qualities that make him a successful general.

And maybe Targaryens do not have magical affinity to dragons. My interpretation is that the Targaryens have success with dragons because they own dragons, and it is only in-universe confirmation bias that has everyone believing they have magical ability. In that case, Jon’s only magical inheritance has indeed come from his Stark mother.

Politically, well Rhaegar fathering Jon could end up having some significance, but that depends on whether you believe Jon will leave the NW (I don’t) and whether you believe that there is proof of his heritage and many people will believe it (I don’t).

I do believe that R+L=J will have payoff; I certainly think we will get a resolution of it and I expect it may influence a few of Jon’s key relationships. But in terms of broad stroke plot mechanics I certainly think the argument that Jon being half-Targaryen will not be overly important is a fair one.

[DrunkSister]

So, the wood witch claiming that TPtwP will be born from the line of Aerys and Rhaella has no bearing to Jon being a savior.

Nothing magical about Targs. Oh, except for all the prophetic dreams various Targs have through history, and the fact that they were dragon riders, and that one of them has predicted the Doom of Valyria before it happened.

There is nothing suggesting that Targs are the only ones being able to tame dragons, but that does not mean that their heritage is not significant. Look at Bloodraven.

[Victarion10]

Do the Dayne and the Martells know about R+L=J and are there any theories that they do?

[Buried Treasure]

So, the wood witch claiming that TPtwP will be born from the line of Aerys and Rhaella has no bearing to Jon being a savior.

Nothing magical about Targs. Oh, except for all the prophetic dreams various Targs have through history, and the fact that they were dragon riders, and that one of them has predicted the Doom of Valyria before it happened.

There is nothing suggesting that Targs are the only ones being able to tame dragons, but that does not mean that their heritage is not significant. Look at Bloodraven.

Well prophecy isn’t important, it’s the mystical equivalent of a weather forecast. You don’t get soaking wet because of the weather forecast, you get wet because of the storm – whether or not you saw the forecast only affects whether you take an umbrella.

The GoHH prophesing a child of the line of Aerys and Rhaella being tPtwP is not important, Jon the saviour of the world is important. The prophesy is only relevant in that it is an accurate description of the saviour of the world. Being of the line of Aerys and Rhaella. does not confer any special advantages that will help a person save the world, it only helps those of us that have heard the prophesy recognise that a person of that bloodline is tPtwP and rule out anybody not of that bloodline as potential saviours.

Oh yeah, I totally forgot about the prophetic dreaming ability in my previous post, I get so caught up in how I am unconvinced the Targs have magical dragon affinity I forget about the magical gifts I am convinced they have. It’s rare enough but that could well be a trait Jon inherited from his father, some of his dreams of the crypts might best be explained by Jon having that gift. Still, that would make him somebody with two separate magical gifts not one supergift.

[Alia of the knife]

Do the Dayne and the Martells know about R+L=J and are there any theories that they do?

I think the Daynes do, and perhaps Gerold Dayne who would have been old enough to see and hear things from the servants of Starfall.

I'm sure that cadet House would be interested in the goings-ons of their more more affluent cousins and Ser Arthurs part in the TOJ.

Perhaps Doran, but especially Oberyn. Maybe Oberyn also knows that DS does as well and that is why he is so dangerous.

[DrunkSister]

Well prophecy isn’t important, it’s the mystical equivalent of a weather forecast. You don’t get soaking wet because of the weather forecast, you get wet because of the storm – whether or not you saw the forecast only affects whether you take an umbrella.

The GoHH prophesing a child of the line of Aerys and Rhaella being tPtwP is not important, Jon the saviour of the world is important. The prophesy is only relevant in that it is an accurate description of the saviour of the world. Being of the line of Aerys and Rhaella. does not confer any special advantages that will help a person save the world, it only helps those of us that have heard the prophesy recognise that a person of that bloodline is tPtwP and rule out anybody not of that bloodline as potential saviours.

Oh yeah, I totally forgot about the prophetic dreaming ability in my previous post, I get so caught up in how I am unconvinced the Targs have magical dragon affinity I forget about the magical gifts I am convinced they have. It’s rare enough but that could well be a trait Jon inherited from his father, some of his dreams of the crypts might best be explained by Jon having that gift. Still, that would make him somebody with two separate magical gifts not one supergift.

Except without prophesy Targs die in Valyria during Doom. No PtwP.

Without the prophesy Aerys and Rhaella wouldn't have married, Rhaegar wouldn't have been born, wouldn't have had Jon with Lyanna and there would be no PtwP to save the world.

Same with Dany. Without A+R no Dany, no dragons.

Hell, without prophesy of the STMTW, Drogo wouldn't have married Dany, and dragons wouldn't have hatched.

Without prophesy Jojen has no way to convince Bran to go north of the Wall.

Weather forecasts are important. It might be just to bring an umbrella or it might be to evacuate because of floods.

...

And I will repeat, look at Bloodraven. The mix of Targ features with First Men blood has led to a very strong skinchanger who become a god.

Saying that Targs are not the only ones with a special affinity to dragons - therefore there is nothing special about them is like saying that Starks are not the only wargs that we see - therefore there is nothing special about them.

[MtnLion]

It was but a foreshadowing of things to come. For the forums are dark and full of errors.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

Well prophecy isn’t important, it’s the mystical equivalent of a weather forecast. You don’t get soaking wet because of the weather forecast, you get wet because of the storm – whether or not you saw the forecast only affects whether you take an umbrella.

I like this little bit here, that's clever. :thumbsup:

[Ygrain]

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Glad to know I made your day :-)

[FrozenFire3]

I do believe that R+L=J will have payoff; I certainly think we will get a resolution of it and I expect it may influence a few of Jon’s key relationships. But in terms of broad stroke plot mechanics I certainly think the argument that Jon being half-Targaryen will not be overly important is a fair one.

It will be as much important as him being half-Stark, or mentioning hundreds of times the name of Jon's long dead father wouldn't respond to any narrative logic. But I agree on the influence on Jon's emotional build up. I strongly suspect that the most interesting battle will play out in his soul... As a classicist, I'm fully aware of the risk of reading ASoIaF only in terms of mythological&lore echoes (or even worse, attempting wishful plot predictions). I keep on getting back to Martin's influences and inspirations (multiform and multi-layered), but mostly to his poetics. And try not to forget that at the end of the day "the human heart in conflict with itself is the only thing worth writing about."

[Alia of the knife]

It will be as much important as him being half-Stark, or mentioning hundreds of times the name of Jon's long dead father wouldn't respond to any narrative logic. But I agree on the influence on Jon's emotional build up. I strongly suspect that the most interesting battle will play out in his soul... As a classicist, I'm fully aware of the risk of reading ASoIaF only in terms of mythological&lore echoes (or even worse, attempting wishful plot predictions). I keep on getting back to Martin's influences and inspirations (multiform and multi-layered), but mostly to his poetics. And try not to forget that at the end of the day "the human heart in conflict with itself is the only thing worth writing about."

And you that I could not agree more with that.

Well said.

[Lyse Stark]

It will be as much important as him being half-Stark, or mentioning hundreds of times the name of Jon's long dead father wouldn't respond to any narrative logic. But I agree on the influence on Jon's emotional build up. I strongly suspect that the most interesting battle will play out in his soul... As a classicist, I'm fully aware of the risk of reading ASoIaF only in terms of mythological&lore echoes (or even worse, attempting wishful plot predictions). I keep on getting back to Martin's influences and inspirations (multiform and multi-layered), but mostly to his poetics. And try not to forget that at the end of the day "the human heart in conflict with itself is the only thing worth writing about."

:thumbsup:

Jon won't take the news of R+L=J well, and I wouldn't be surprised if he wishes he were baseborn, but the truth is undeniable; Jon was born a king. Killing the boy may means that Jon may have to take up his rightful place, even if he doesn't want it.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

I thought i'd just leave this here for those who fight the good fight about whether they were guarding Rhaegars concubine vs. the king

Barristan 1 (not an exact quote)

"Strictly speaking it as up to the king to extend kings guard protection."

I guess strictly means always, except that one time Rhaegar said guard my girlfriend no matter what

[Consigliere]

I thought i'd just leave this here for those who fight the good fight about whether they were guarding Rhaegars concubine vs. the king

Barristan 1 (not an exact quote)

"Strictly speaking it as up to the king to extend kings guard protection."

I guess strictly means always, except that one time Rhaegar said guard my girlfriend no matter what

The fact that it was Ser Gerold Hightower who said “The Kingsguard does not flee” and “We swore a vow” leads me to believe that they were protecting the king (Jon) and not Rhaegar's concubine.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

So, the wood witch claiming that TPtwP will be born from the line of Aerys and Rhaella has no bearing to Jon being a savior.

Nothing magical about Targs. Oh, except for all the prophetic dreams various Targs have through history, and the fact that they were dragon riders, and that one of them has predicted the Doom of Valyria before it happened.

There is nothing suggesting that Targs are the only ones being able to tame dragons, but that does not mean that their heritage is not significant. Look at Bloodraven.

The High Priest of R'hollor claims Dany is AA reborn. Maester Aemon believed Dany is the PtwP. Mel stated that AA and the PtwP are the same person, and Aemon did not say anything too contradict her. (Not that I buy in to everything Mel says) . So where does that leave Jon? In the North dealing with winter. I believe his Stark blood is much more important to him and his story. Now, GRRM stated Jon 's parentage will eventually be laid out, but he didnt say for sure that Jon will be the one to hear it.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

The fact that it was Ser Gerold Hightower who said “The Kingsguard does not flee” and “We swore a vow” leads me to believe that they were protecting the king (Jon) and not Rhaegar's concubine.

Yeah, just stumbled on some more evidence; Dayne/Darry might stay after KL fell, but Hightower wouldn't

[Alia of the knife]

And another of my favorite Faulkner quotes:

“Perhaps they were right in putting love into books, . . . Perhaps it could not live anywhere else."- William Faulkner

If one is going to try and ferret out the bread crumbs that Martin leaves, not only what FF3 observes, but history itself is a good indicator as he is an avid lover of history. And in history, for those who tried to decipher prophesy, they seemed to do so from very personal reasons more often than not, because they inevitably saw what they wanted to see.

As smart as Rhaegar was, he wasn't exactly Madame Cleo when it came to understanding prophesy, so when he met Lyanna, what was the overriding factor in what he did, love, prophesy, or both?

I'd say both and 10% prophesy and 90% Lyanna.

As I've often said, bad men need no excuses to do questionable things, but good men do, and it wouldn't be hard to believe that Rhaegar might have thought the gods wanted him to take Lyanna and that it was the for the good of all in the end.

But whether that was true, or it was the first time in his life that what was honorable conflicted with what he wanted, I think it's possible Martin might have also been influenced by the notion written by an observer of the War of the Roses and of Edward of York on his chosen Queen.

"Now take heed what love may do, for love will not cast no fault nor peril in nothing." - Gregory.

Certainly the character Rhaegar cannot be compared to Edward of York, (that would be Robert more likely), but both Rhaegar and Edward did follow their hearts rather than adhere to duty, and more than likely because of that, Rhaegars prophesy was fulfilled though his dynasty like that of Edwards, faltered.

In terms of Jons reaction, again, I think the switching of Gillys baby is the device by which he will forgive his Uncle. I do think he will not take the news well in the beginning, but also because of Neds tutelage on the importance of duty, as Lyse says, he may take the throne not because he wants it, but because he has to.

This is somewhat echoed in Danys own behavior. Does she pursue the throne because she wants it, or because she feels it's her duty as well as her right?

She does still dream of a little red door in more simple times.

[Consigliere]

Yeah, just stumbled on some more evidence; Dayne/Darry might stay after KL fell, but Hightower wouldn't

Yep. Dayne was Rhaegar's best bud but Hightower appears to be a stickler for the rules. The fact that it was him who said those words made me believe that he was not just simply following Rhaegar's orders but rather upholding the primary function of the KG.