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Veltigar

The Brightfyre theory

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Veltigar, on 24 Feb 2014 - 11:03 AM, said:

_ There is a certain irony in the fact that the Brightfyre theory makes Faegon’s claim even better in the sense that in unites both the older Targaryen and the BF claim, thus you could say that this trumps the claim Dany and Jon have.

Again, this doesn't say whether its the passed over son or the Lyseni-Bastards. I don't see where you get this from that text excerpt.

Lord Martin, on 24 Feb 2014 - 5:09 PM, said:snapback.png

Sorry. How is that silly? How is that trolling?

The significance is that he is false in who he thinks and claims to be, was that not obvious? The dragon is playing everyone false. The dragon is false in being Rhaegar's son. And if this false dragon was not a false dragon, then why did Moqorro include it in the dragons Tyrion snarls in the midst of?

If something is "false" then it isn't what it is stated to be. A false dragon means a person who isn't a dragon claiming to be one. False gold isn't still gold, its something else.

The whole point of the theory is that Faegon is a true dragon, to then turn around and say he's the false dragon is inherently inconsistent.

You seem to be conflating who is the rightful heir or Rhaegar's true son with the word "dragon." Nothing was said or implied about who is the rightful heir. The question is who is a dragon, regardless of color.

I assumed Moqorro's vision parodied the dragon dreams in which Targaryens/Targaryen descendants show up as dragons. Even the way he starts the vision off. First he says that he sees Dragons. Then repeats dragons, and describes them. I personally describe to the interpretation that it means a Targ that doesn't hold true to what a Dragon is supposed to be. A theme repeated multiple times in the Dany POV's, describing how her brother wasn't a true Dragon and her whole path of self discovery leading to the discarding of her "floppy ears" and embracing being a "dragon". Tyrion also brings it up in conversation with Aegon in aDwD.

Go to Westeros, though...ah, then you are a rebel, not a begar. Bold, reckless, a true scion of House Targaryen, walking in the footsteps of Aegon the Conqueror. A dragon.

I'm not saying you're completely wrong. But you aren't 100% right in assuming you have the only answer.

Remember,“That is the nature of prophecy... Prophecy will bite your prick off every time.”- Archmaester Marwyn

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So who was Aerion's wife that could beget him a trueborn son? Are we just making that up to fit the theory? And what did her family do when the infant son was passed over? Just sat idly by?

We know the son was passed over. We know the son was legitimate (or possibly a legitimized bastard I guess too). We do not know who the wife was. We are not making anything up about the wife (well some are saying a Martell). And we admit we do not know what the family did.

I guess I see what your saying with "false" but that's really thin and twisted, IMO. My problem with it is simple grammar. "Dragons" is the subject with six modifying adjectives. Given how they are paired, it could mean 6 unique dragons or it could mean 2 dragons, who knows.

But I didn't conflate anything, you changed the meaning of "dragon" for each adjective to get to your suggested interpretation. Dragon means dragon, red, black or any other color or it means true born child... it doesn't alternate back and forth.

Ah, I see. But then who is the bright dragon? Targaryen red is not really a bright red, imo. The only bright dragon in the story is Aerion (and then so Serra and Varys, Varys who Tyrion snarls admist), imo.

I did not change the meaning of dragon for each adjective. They all mean a member of House Targaryen (House Blackfyre is a branch of them and so included).

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No... no one said anything about genes where did you get that from? I was running with (what I thought was) your suggestion that since Aerion often threatened to castrate Egg, it makes sense that his son might also be cruel and into castration. Targaryen madness is hereditary, but I did forget that Aerion would not have been around to rub off on his son.

Right, in other words, a castration gene. Because what you're saying is that since Aerion threatened to castrate Egg, it makes sense that his son would castrate someone, no?

What some of us are thinking is that GRRM provides certain markers for us to note; e.g., Lys, mummers, castration. And of course Moqorro's line about "dragons bright and dark." Maybe that's Brightflame and maybe it's not. But since maybe it is, it's worth looking into. And when we do look into it: Lys, mummers, castration.

As to the second question, also "no" because I do not ascribe to the proposed theory.

According to the counter-interpretation you presented it would.

There's been an odd trend on the boards recently to try to shoehorn Aerion Brightflame into the story and I don't know why. But if people want to find him or his descendants somewhere, that seems a better place to look than a major character like Faegon.

Odd why? Because you don't agree with it. There are connections between Aerion Brightflame and Varys and some of us are trying to provide an explanation for it.

Also, I think it's odd that you would post an uber-crackpot and then suddenly become close minded about this theory.

Incidentally, I hope folks realize that Brightflame was Aerion's nickname, not his actual last name as was the case with Daemon Blackfyre. Aerion is Aerion Targaryen. His children wouldn't be "Brightflames."

Explained in the OP. Brightflame is used in place of a House name to differentiate his line from the main branch of Targaryens.

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To those saying that Varys & Serra are Blackfyres and Illyrio is the Brightflame: Then why are there more Blackfyre references than Brightflame references? If the father is a Brightflame, then shouldn't the son be considered more of a Brightflame than a Blackfyre?

Also, explain how Illyrio Brightflame ended up with the Blackfyre sword - though admittedly, this is only something that is probable in a draft of a Tyrion chapter and not in the actual text of aDwD.

Actually, Blackfyre is the Johnny come lately to the party. Aerion Brighflame is established back in ACOK, while Daemon and the Blackfyre rebellion isn't introduced until ASOS, and even in that book Aerion is mentioned much more often. It's the last book where Martin plays catch up establishing the Blackfyre backstory. I don't believe that the Blackfyre sword has ever been mentioned in the main series, only in the short stories, and where is it confirmed that Illyrio is in possession of Blackfyre?

I'm still not convinced that Illyrio is a secret Targaryen. I really think Martin is setting up Illyrio as a major player in the overthrow of the Volantis Valyrians.

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Did you bother with the OP at all?

Everyone else (who has) has also opted to speak such.

Post 52 asked if Faegons surname would be Brightflame, so not everyone caught that.

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Actually, Blackfyre is the Johnny come lately to the party. Aerion Brighflame is established back in ACOK, while Daemon and the Blackfyre rebellion isn't introduced until ASOS, and even in that book Aerion is mentioned much more often. It's the last book where Martin plays catch up establishing the Blackfyre backstory.

Eh, fair enough. Though I still think the black dragon head turning up red with rust is huge and is anything beyond Aerion references.

I don't believe that the Blackfyre sword has ever been mentioned in the main series, only in the short stories, and where is it confirmed that Illyrio is in possession of Blackfyre?

Also, explain how Illyrio Brightflame ended up with the Blackfyre sword - though admittedly, this is only something that is probable in a draft of a Tyrion chapter and not in the actual text of aDwD.

Post 52 asked if Faegons surname would be Brightflame, so not everyone caught that.

Alright, but you should have quoted that person then at least and referred him or her to the OP. Instead you sort of generalized, using "folks."

edit: Lord Martin, if you want to discuss Moqorro's dragons more, then I suggest you go to an appropriate thread (this is one of many probably, but is recent and has recent discussion) unless you can show how it directly relates here/counts as evidence against this theory.

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Right, in other words, a castration gene. Because what you're saying is that since Aerion threatened to castrate Egg, it makes sense that his son would castrate someone, no?

What some of us are thinking is that GRRM provides certain markers for us to note; e.g., Lys, mummers, castration. And of course Moqorro's line about "dragons bright and dark." Maybe that's Brightflame and maybe it's not. But since maybe it is, it's worth looking into. And when we do look into it: Lys, mummers, castration.

According to the counter-interpretation you presented it would.

Odd why? Because you don't agree with it. There are connections between Aerion Brightflame and Varys and some of us are trying to provide an explanation for it.

Also, I think it's odd that you would post an uber-crackpot and then suddenly become close minded about this theory.

Explained in the OP. Brightflame is used in place of a House name to differentiate his line from the main branch of Targaryens.

I wasn't proposing it as a theory, I was saying if people want Aerion in there somewhere, that seems more likely than what is proposed.

I think it's odd because there seems to be a recent influx of Brightflame references. Sometimes a dead Targ is just a dead Targ. I also don't love theories about Gerion Lannister looming large for the same reasons.

And as for my posts, let's not hijack the thread, I'd be happy to discuss it with you over there. At least I quote more text that, "Lys, Bright and a passed over son." Which is about all the evidence I see here.

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"He may be a true Targaryan after all..."


Tyrion



That sentence fits nicely with Blackfyre - Brightflame theory. It, first, shows doubt about boy's identity. And, at this point, not only the majority of forum members, but also some of book characters have their doubts about YG (Mace Tyrell, Daemon Sand, for example).


But, boy may be a true Targaryan...after all. Not quite a Targaryan we expected, but a Targaryan.


I'm IN with this theory, though I couldn't say who of YG parents is Blackfyre and who Brightflame.


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I wasn't proposing it as a theory, I was saying if people want Aerion in there somewhere, that seems more likely than what is proposed.

Which makes it in effect a theory of sorts, since it's an attempt to exlain. So my point was that if we continue on line of thinking, doesn't it make sense that Varys would be the younger brother of the person who cut him? But apparently you only want to play the game up to a certain point which is convenient for your argument.

I think it's odd because there seems to be a recent influx of Brightflame references. Sometimes a dead Targ is just a dead Targ. I also don't love theories about Gerion Lannister looming large for the same reasons.

Maybe that's because some of us find these 'coincidences' intriguing, and are looking for a way to reconcile them. Sound familiar?

We are told that Knight's King was the 13th LC of the NW. We are also told that the Last Hero set out with 12 companions, thus making him the 13th member of his party. I have a very hard time believing that this is a coincidence. But is there a way to reconcile the tales?

And as for my posts, let's not hijack the thread, I'd be happy to discuss it with you over there. At least I quote more text that, "Lys, Bright and a passed over son." Which is about all the evidence I see here.

Quality > quantity.

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from OP:




_ The Dragon sign in AFFC


_Faegon being supported by the GC

_Illyrio’s “BF have died out in the male line” comment (implying that there are still descendants from the female line).

_ He clearly loves the boy, which is strange since he was really indifferent about the two other Targs

_ The boy clothes in his manse

_ Varys shaves his head, just like Egg does in the D&E tales. Best explanation is that he’s trying to hide some Valyrian traits there

_ Varys castration (power of kingsblood)

_ Illyrio was a warrior in his youth. We know martial prowess is one of the most important parts of House Blackfyre


_ Illyrio’s description matches nicely with that of Aegon IV the Unworthy (he’s fat, corrupt, etc.) when you lay them side by side. Just like Faegon seems to have a striking resemblance to the original Daemon Blackfyre.


_ In THK, the first time we are really introduced to Aerion’s madness is when we see him abuse his power to manhandle a bunch of mummers because the dragon in their puppet show died. Therefore there is a lot of irony in Aerion’s descendant being a mummer himself (Varys) and is about to bring his own mummer’s dragon into the game


_ It ties up loose ends. It is often (and quite correctly) stated that due to the Blackfyre’s enormous impact on the D&E tales they are bound to return in some form during ASOIAF. The same could be said of Aerion, who’s threatening presence still looms large over Egg, even after he’s banished.


_ Thematically, a marriage alliance between the Scions of House BF (Illyrio) and House Brightflame makes a lot more sense than “two buddies teaming up to take down the system and then one buddy falls for the other ones sister” (which sounds like the premise of a bad heist movie). We have seen that alliances sealed by marriage are hugely important and an integral part of the fabric of this series (e.g. Rickard’s Southron ambitions, Ned and Jon marrying Cat and Lysa, Bobby B marrying Cersei, Dany marrying Drogo, etc.) and it would make a lot more sense if the Illyrio-Serra union happened along this line as well.


_ It better explains Illyrio’s trust in the GC and his motivation in general. We know he doesn’t really think highly of Westerosi and that he seems to symbolize the greedy free city merchant class. So, it really seems strange that he’s as convinced of the GC support as he seems to be. If he was just a merchant he would be a lot less certain of himself. I also highly doubt that he would risk his only son (whom he clearly loves) in order to claim the IT. If Illyrio wants a lot of power he would be better off trying to take over a Free City.




Veltigar, these are the main points you made in your OP that have me 99% convinced. I was already in the BF camp, but I really like how you tied in Brightflame.



Going a bit further into the general descended through female line thing: I always found it odd that the Dornish had different laws concerning female succession. It does serve as a nice GM touch of realistic politics resulting from the complex history of Dorne and the 7 Kingdoms, but I always figured it would be important to the story in tWoW. Back in my ignorant days (had only read asoiaf once, ha) I assumed that this would simply be important because Dorne would try to crown Myrcella (cuz why not?). This will still probably happen (gold crowns, gold shrouds), but I think the potential of fAegon to have a legitimate, unbroken succession to the throne through the female line works even better if Dorne takes over and changes the law throughout the kingdoms. And how could Doran not win, he's the grass. ^_^


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I think it's a good idea Veltigar and the details are much along the lines of what I've always thought.

One question-- how do you explain "extinct in the male line" is Illyrio is a Blackfyre himself? In that case fAegon is a male Blackfyre... (apologies if it's in your OP and I missed it)

Have you considered the reverse? That is Illyrio as a Brighflame and Serra a Blackfyre? Wouldn't all the essentials remain the same?

Daemon Blackfyre had seven children, including two girls. That's a lot of potential for a descendant along the female line. Illyrio's female ancestor could have been born from what, four or five generations?

Illyrio is the man that moves like a water dancer and mingles with the Golden Company. The conversation overheard by Arya clearly suggests that Illyrio is giving the orders. Varys was born a slave in Lys where Aerion was exiled and apparently sired a bastard or three (http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Many_Questions/)The hints and lies we have about each of their backstroke suggest Velrigar is correct.

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Daemon Blackfyre had seven children, including two girls. That's a lot of potential for a descendant along the female line. Illyrio's female ancestor could have been born from what, four or five generations?

Illyrio is the man that moves like a water dancer and mingles with the Golden Company. The conversation overheard by Arya clearly suggests that Illyrio is giving the orders. Varys was born a slave in Lys where Aerion was exiled and apparently sired a bastard or three (http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Many_Questions/)The hints and lies we have about each of their backstroke suggest Velrigar is correct.

Read on, you'll see I was actually agreeing with Veltigar, while looking for a little clarification ;)

Since no one has answered my second question (posed three times!) -- I do think it could work in the reverse, but would suggest that the connection between Illyrio and the Golden Company (not mentioned until your post) is the most compelling hint that he is, in fact, the Blackfyre.

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Eh, fair enough. Though I still think the black dragon head turning up red with rust is huge and is anything beyond Aerion references.

.

For what it's worth, I agree with you that "Aegon" is only a Blackfyre and not also a Brightflame. I just think that Varys is a Brightflame, however, and just not actually related to "Aegon".

I think Aegon is being used to get the Golden Company on board (the same sell swords that laughed at Viserys) and to convince House Yronwood (long time Blackfyre supporters) to join with the Martells in the coup. Varys becomes the power behind the throne and has helped to mold a boy with the traits he believes are necessary to rule the kingdom.

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"He may be a true Targaryan after all..."

Tyrion

That sentence fits nicely with Blackfyre - Brightflame theory. It, first, shows doubt about boy's identity. And, at this point, not only the majority of forum members, but also some of book characters have their doubts about YG (Mace Tyrell, Daemon Sand, for example).

But, boy may be a true Targaryan...after all. Not quite a Targaryan we expected, but a Targaryan.

I'm IN with this theory, though I couldn't say who of YG parents is Blackfyre and who Brightflame.

Interesting point. Illyrio's "Black or red, a dragon is still a dragon." would also work along these lines.

---

A thought I had regarding any of Brightflame's Lysian bastards: they could have been legitimized by the head of House Blackfyre, who would consider himself the rightful king.

I don't think this happened but, as a practical matter, it's something that could have taken place.

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Which makes it in effect a theory of sorts, since it's an attempt to exlain. So my point was that if we continue on line of thinking, doesn't it make sense that Varys would be the younger brother of the person who cut him? But apparently you only want to play the game up to a certain point which is convenient for your argument.

Maybe that's because some of us find these 'coincidences' intriguing, and are looking for a way to reconcile them. Sound familiar?

Quality > quantity.

What makes you think Varys is 68 years old? He'd have to be by that theory.

Aerion died in 232. Even if he impregnated someone after the mother of the passed over son, the text say that the Great a Council passed over the son (not sons) so we'd have to assume that the text is wrong and Aemon didn't know about Varys. But then we'd also have to assume the infant son was aware of Varys, tracked him down and castrated him. Seems highly inconsistent and unlikely, IMO.

And if Varys is 68, how is his sister Serra the mother of a 15 year old? There are scenarios where the numbers could work, but they would be extreme.

Edit, I take that back. If Varys was castrated by his elder brother who was the passed over son, then there is no time for aerion to sire Serra either, unless she's Varys twin. Then she would have had Faegon at age 42 or 43. That also strains credulity.

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For what it's worth, I agree with you that "Aegon" is only a Blackfyre and not also a Brightflame. I just think that Varys is a Brightflame, however, and just not actually related to "Aegon".

For what it's worth, I am starting to believe this theory! (Or I at least want to believe it.) So don't say I think Aegon is only a Blackfyre and not a Brighflame too!

But, ah, so you think Serra is just some woman with Valyrian looks and Illyrio is a Blackfyre?

I guess that does not really change anything with this theory besides giving Varys less motive, and Illyrio's debts of affection makes less sense I'd think. (Though that, imo, doesn't make too much sense in this theory either way.)

edit: Oh, no, wait, I'm confused. You think Serra is the Blackfyre and Illyrio just some sellsword/merchant? That explains the debts of affection, I guess.

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Read on, you'll see I was actually agreeing with Veltigar, while looking for a little clarification ;)

Since no one has answered my second question (posed three times!) -- I do think it could work in the reverse, but would suggest that the connection between Illyrio and the Golden Company (not mentioned until your post) is the most compelling hint that he is, in fact, the Blackfyre.

It doesn´t work in reverse. It just loses a lot. Varys has more hints of being Brightflame than of being Blackfyre. Actually is there any link at all of Varys Blackfyre?

Same goes for Serra (even if there is little to work with).

Also same goes for Illyrio blackfyre. Turning around the identities loses the clues on Illyrio Blackfyre, and gains nothing.

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What makes you think Varys is 68 years old? He'd have to be by that theory.

Aerion died in 232. Even if he impregnated someone after the mother of the passed over son, the text say that the Great a Council passed over the son (not sons) so we'd have to assume that the text is wrong and Aemon didn't know about Varys. But then we'd also have to assume the infant son was aware of Varys, tracked him down and castrated him. Seems highly inconsistent and unlikely, IMO.

And if Varys is 68, how is his sister Serra the mother of a 15 year old? There are scenarios where the numbers could work, but they would be extreme.

You tell me, it's your theory. :) I only think that previously mentioned connections between Varys and Aerion are markers meant to, well, connect to the two.

Originally, you stated that you thought it made more sense if the son of Aerion castrated Varys, and that would fit nicely into why he wanted to play a part in the downfall of the Targaryens. Now, it's not clear to me if you meant that Varys was a Blackfyre or just some random Lyseni.

If it's the former, then how did Aerion's son know Varys was a Blackfyre? If it's the latter, Varys should have been satisfied with House Targaryen's fall at the hands of Robert and company.

So, that probably renders your interpretation as fairly unlikely. Yet we still have these connections between Aerion and Varys. How do we explain them?

It doesn´t work in reverse. It just loses a lot. Varys has more hints of being Brightflame than of being Blackfyre. Actually is there any link at all of Varys Blackfyre?

Same goes for Serra (even if there is little to work with).

Also same goes for Illyrio blackfyre. Turning around the identities loses the clues on Illyrio Blackfyre, and gains nothing.

Perhaps a close read of TSS would give something. There's plenty of Blackfyre talk in the book, and of course one of the two main houses in the story uses a spider for its sigil.

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I do think it could work in the reverse, but would suggest that the connection between Illyrio and the Golden Company (not mentioned until your post) is the most compelling hint that he is, in fact, the Blackfyre.

Agreed.

For what it's worth, I agree with you that "Aegon" is only a Blackfyre and not also a Brightflame. I just think that Varys is a Brightflame, however, and just not actually related to "Aegon".

I think one bit of evidence that points to Varys being related is simply the fact that the constant theme among contenders is that they are pretty much all in it for their families (or themselves), while Varys claims to be the single man of integrity serving the realm. It would fit much better with the story, I think, if Varys was in it for his family all along, and I think if his castration was voluntary (def could have been) it gives a little credit to the idea of Varys making a sacrifice for his nephew to eventually rule and his house to be restored.

What makes you think Varys is 68 years old? He'd have to be by that theory.

Aerion died in 232. Even if he impregnated someone after the mother of the passed over son, the text say that the Great a Council passed over the son (not sons) so we'd have to assume that the text is wrong and Aemon didn't know about Varys. But then we'd also have to assume the infant son was aware of Varys, tracked him down and castrated him. Seems highly inconsistent and unlikely, IMO.

And if Varys is 68, how is his sister Serra the mother of a 15 year old? There are scenarios where the numbers could work, but they would be extreme.

I think you are a little too fixated on the math and the generations, considering our lack of knowledge of the family trees involved here. It is more beneficial to focus on the foreshadowing and other evidence in the OP than to nitpick the details.

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Perhaps a close read of TSS would give something. There's plenty of Blackfyre talk in the book, and of course one of the two main houses in the story uses a spider for its sigil.

I read it a while ago, so this might not be completely accurate. House webber (spider sigil) wasn´t really loyal to the blackfyres. It was house osgrey.

Actually Ser eustance osgrey was the blackfyre loyalist. he buried his sons close to blackberry bushes. Tyrion and Illyrio eat blackberries, and drink blackberry wine didn´t they?

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