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Sansa and Petyr


Lost Melnibonean

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At this point it feels like sansa will be stuck with petyr. I just can't rationalize her outsmarting someone like him.


It would be jon snow becomes lord commander or arya becomes a faceless man all over again


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At this point it feels like sansa will be stuck with petyr. I just can't rationalize her outsmarting someone like him.

It would be jon snow becomes lord commander or arya becomes a faceless man all over again

Well the Starks children aren't really normal. Didn't Rickon fight off some men in the crypt of winterfell?

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I hope Sansa outplays LF. Makes him believe she is in love with him, maybe even marry him, then "Sandor Clegane.... Bring me his head!"

Really though, I hope she sees through his smugness & games & completely outwits him.

I don't see her marrying him, but defeating him at his own game that I could see that happening.

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I've never been able to quite understand the extreme distaste Sansa fans have for Baelish. Especially when you look at how many SandorxSansa shippers there are.

Baelish is no angel but at least he's never come close to raping her. Sandor even regrets NOT raping her later on.

I mean, sure he had a thing for her mother but he seems to see Sansa as her own person, not JUST as Cat 2.0.

And it is not pedophilia because Sansa is not prepubescent.

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I don't see her marrying him, but defeating him at his own game that I could see that happening.

How? LF is by most evidence, the most intelligent character in the series. And Sansa has only learned what Baelish has seen fit to teach her.

I really don't understand the logic behind this strange fan theory.

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I've never been able to quite understand the extreme distaste Sansa fans have for Baelish. Especially when you look at how many SandorxSansa shippers there are.

Baelish is no angel but at least he's never come close to raping her. Sandor even regrets NOT raping her later on.

I mean, sure he had a thing for her mother but he seems to see Sansa as her own person, not JUST as Cat 2.0.

And it is not pedophilia because Sansa is not prepubescent.

Sandor didn't try to antagonize the Starks and Lannisters against each other.

Sandor didn't prostituted Sansa's best friends

Sandor didn't make her an accomplice of the death Joffrey, Lysa and Marillion

Sandor didn't repeatedly molested her.

I am not denying he sexually assaulted Sansa, but lets not compare him to Littlefinger. That is a disservice to Sandor. Littlefinger definitely sees her as Catelyn 2.0.

How? LF is by most evidence, the most intelligent character in the series. And Sansa has only learned what Baelish has seen fit to teach her.

I really don't understand the logic behind this strange fan theory.

Well for one lets look at the original title of the last book: "A Time for Wolves". What does the title mean? It obviously implies that the Starks will rise again. Sansa's arc has been about politics, court intrigue and game of thrones. The logical way for her to rise is to become a player. For her to become a player she requires agency and Littlefinger derives her from agency more than anyone else. So for Sansa to rise Littlefinger has to die. And don't get me started about the prophecy looming over his head. Littlefinger is doomed.

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Nope and one of the people who knew had his head chopped off by Jon, one had his throat slit by some little birds, one is a Eunuch doing his own game, one was regicided, one is Cersei and one is somebody who she doesn't trust and is married to.

I think a lot more people than that know at least something of LF's betrayal of Ned. Besides the principal players, there were over a hundred Gold Cloaks in the throne room that day (all of whom knew what would happen and what LF's real orders were.) Besides them, there were also numerous servants and flunkies there - all of whom would have seen LF standing at Ned's side, then grabbing his dagger and holding it to his throat while saying "I warned you not to trust me." Such a dramatic scene would have been food for gossip in the Red Keep and eventually all over KL. The only reason Sansa didn't know about it while she was there was because no one was allowed to talk to her at all.

So now that she's freer to listen to gossip, there's far more chance that someone will drop that scandalous tidbit about the Lord Protector of the Vale in Sansa's hearing - maybe some lord or lady whispering in admiration or disgust about LF's slyness, maybe Myranda Royce herself, that supreme purveyor of gossip.

The question is, what will Sansa do with that information once she gets it?

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I mean Petyr molests sansa and I guess she could use his lust for her to be his Cat 2.0 to work a student becomes the master type deal but even Littlefinger has to be smart enough to see something like that for what it is. Also Sansa would need to learn about using her sex and that seems beyond her entirely highborn lady that she is


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Well for one lets look at the original title of the last book: "A Time for Wolves". What does the title mean? It obviously implies that the Starks will rise again. Sansa's arc has been about politics, court intrigue and game of thrones. The logical way for her to rise is to become a player. For her to become a player she requires agency and Littlefinger derives her from agency more than anyone else. So for Sansa to rise Littlefinger has to die. And don't get me started about the prophecy looming over his head. Littlefinger is doomed.

Keep in mind that A Time for Wolves was renamed to A Dream of Spring because GRRM wasn't satisfied with the former title. This was possibly caused by the fact that the book wasn't really about the rise of the Starks, or that A Dream of Spring was more fitting to the content. A Time for Wolves was also a placeholder, further compromising that argument's integrity. Regardless, it would be incomprehensibly weak if Littlefinger managed to survive the series, and his days are likely numbered.

Unfortunately for us 'lemon-cakes,' the event in which Sansa falls for Petyr isn't impossible.

Betrayal of Ned is something Sansa and LF have in common. The difference is, LF knows of hers, while she knows nothing of his.

Here we go... :bang:

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I believe that LFs plans for Sansa change during the books:


When we first meet LF he is a man without any emotional connections. He has neither family nor close friends. He must have really loved Catelyn, otherwise his foolish move to fight Brandon makes no sense. But she rejected him. After that he probably decides to become the most powerful man in Westeros, so he can take revenge, and to never let his heart make decisions for him again. This is part of the reason why he is such a good player. People you love make your moves predictable and leave you open to be attacked.


Sansa attracts him physically but she is no love interest, otherwise he would have used somebody else to smuggle the hairnet, as it is highly dangerous to do so. She is valuable for her claim to Winterfell, and therefore he takes her to the eyrie, probably to wed her to Sweet Robin.


All this changes, when he sees Sansa building her ice-castle. The child of the forest on high heart says that the girl with the snakes in her hair will slay a giant in an ice-castle. Sansa slays Petyr with a smile. He falls in love with her, and can't help himself but kiss her out there in the open for all the eyrie including Lysa to see. It is only now that he starts scheming for Sansa, killing Lysa, making the match with Harry etc.


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Keep in mind that A Time for Wolves was renamed to A Dream of Spring because GRRM wasn't satisfied with the former title. This was possibly caused by the fact that the book wasn't really about the rise of the Starks, or that A Dream of Spring was more fitting to the content. A Time for Wolves was also a placeholder, further compromising that argument's integrity. Regardless, it would be incomprehensibly weak if Littlefinger managed to survive the series, and his days are likely numbered.

Unfortunately for us 'lemon-cakes,' the event in which Sansa falls for Petyr isn't impossible.

Here we go... :bang:

The Title was changed because it was giving away too much, but the story probably won't be changed. Jojen's dream says it all. The Wolves will come again. Littlefinger's downfall at Sansa's hand is inevitable. :cool4:

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Here we go... :bang:

I'll see your :bang: and raise you one :ack: .

I believe that LFs plans for Sansa change during the books:

When we first meet LF he is a man without any emotional connections. He has neither family nor close friends. He must have really loved Catelyn, otherwise his foolish move to fight Brandon makes no sense. But she rejected him. After that he probably decides to become the most powerful man in Westeros, so he can take revenge, and to never let his heart make decisions for him again. This is part of the reason why he is such a good player. People you love make your moves predictable and leave you open to be attacked.

Sansa attracts him physically but she is no love interest, otherwise he would have used somebody else to smuggle the hairnet, as it is highly dangerous to do so. She is valuable for her claim to Winterfell, and therefore he takes her to the eyrie, probably to wed her to Sweet Robin.

All this changes, when he sees Sansa building her ice-castle. The child of the forest on high heart says that the girl with the snakes in her hair will slay a giant in an ice-castle. Sansa slays Petyr with a smile. He falls in love with her, and can't help himself but kiss her out there in the open for all the eyrie including Lysa to see. It is only now that he starts scheming for Sansa, killing Lysa, making the match with Harry etc.

Ummm, no. The first time Littlefinger meets Sansa, he comments on her likeness to her mother and touches her hair. He requests to marry Sansa shortly after Ned's death. He continually mentions his "relationship" with Catelyn and reiterates how much Sansa looks like her.

He never even mentions Winterfell in connection with Sansa until he tells her about Harry The Heir. That doesn't seem to indicate an interest in Sansa back in power there (and there is also good reason to believe he's not serious about the Harry thing).

He wanted Sansa to smuggle the poison in her hairnet into the wedding so he could incriminate her in the crime, so he could have a threat to hold over her head and have her even more under his power. He doesn't have time to "start scheming for Sansa" after the snow castle scene, since him killing Lysa happens later that same afternoon (and he couldn't really have predicted that Lysa would attempt to kill Sansa then).

Doesn't square with the text as written.

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another thread were littlefinger does not get enough credit. He may meet his end but his smarter then sansa but 10

I am just being realistic here. I mean we know that the Starks will rise again and for Sansa to rise she requires agency and Littlefinger keeps her from getting her agency the most. For her to gain agency he has to die. It is that simple. It isn't that far fetched for Sansa to defeat him. She is his blind spot.

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commenting on her likeness with cately, touching her hair.... does not necessarily mean that somebody loves another person. Here I think it is a purely physical attraction. Even if he wanted to incriminate her with the heirnet, that would also not be something you do to somebody you love. Just to somebody you want to use. He did not love her before the snowcastle. After the snowcastle things are different. Of course he kills Lysa first an schemes then, I did not mean it chronologically. But kissing Sansa in public and killing Lysa makes no sense from a LF wants power perspective. It only makes sense if his goals have changed. So, yes she is his blind spot now and she will bring him down.


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All this changes, when he sees Sansa building her ice-castle. The child of the forest on high heart says that the girl with the snakes in her hair will slay a giant in an ice-castle. Sansa slays Petyr with a smile. He falls in love with her, and can't help himself but kiss her out there in the open for all the eyrie including Lysa to see. It is only now that he starts scheming for Sansa, killing Lysa, making the match with Harry etc.

Although I disagree with you, that is an interesting interpretation of the GHH Prophecy.

The Title was changed because it was giving away too much, but the story probably won't be changed. Jojen's dream says it all. The Wolves will come again. Littlefinger's downfall at Sansa's hand is inevitable. :cool4:

In that case, changing the title wasn't a terrible idea.

The question to ask is, how will Littlefinger fall at the hands of Sansa?

Assuming that A Dream of Spring does put emphasis on the return of the Starks (very likely), then Littlefinger will likely meet his doom at the hands of Sansa in the final book. This, theoretically, would allow LF and Sansa to manipulate/influence/whatever each other, and will likely make the final outcome completely unpredictable. Not that it was obvious already, of course.

It is also speculated that LF or someone in LF's presence during Ned's unfortunate and abrupt fall from power could inadvertantly allow Sansa to realize the role that LF had in her father's death, blah blah blah.

However...

Every single person that Littlefinger has allied himself with was disposed of in some way or another, and Sansa may not be an exception. GRRM is writing this, after all. :worried:

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Thing is, I figure Sansa will stand up to him and refuse to play along, at which point he'll decide to kill her and she gets saved either by Sandor or Arya.

Sandor Clegane? He's dead for all we know, isn't he?

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