Robb and Jon if they had been together?

[Hypnomagica]

Jon would have already been in the south teating with Doran Martell about his forces and marriage between their houses Sansa and his son.

Plus Jon very well married on of the sand snakes. Part of the price of Martell doing nothing and he might get a legit sand snake in the package

Why do people still respond to this guy? Seriously.

[Minsc]

I added Jon killing Jamie because that would affect what the lannisters would do, would change the way that men would look at Ned Starks bastard and give him a little more presitage to his name. Maybe she was but she couldn't forge an alliance with Renly nor with Stannis. The former was killed by the latter and the latter doesn't bend. SO that's no fault of Stannis. Someone mentions that the battle of the camps and whisphering woods would have been a different battle with 2 wolves there instead of just Grey Wind. IT's possible that Jamie is torn to pieces by a combined attack by the wolves together.

Jon isn't going to kill Jaime. Especially, seeing how that would be counter productive to Robb's goals at that junction. In how, if Jaime dies then he has basically doomed his father and two sisters to death in how the Starks don't hold any Lannister hostages. Furthermore, Tywin wouldn't break from following Roose because of Jaime's capture thus likely would have kept going and destoryed Roose's entire forces thus crippling the North's forces.

Even one has an over inflated insense of what the Tyrell would and wouldn't do, they are only in charge of Highgarden because the steward at the time had the good sense to yield the castle. The way the florents talk the Tyrells claim the highgarden seems to come for a claim from the wrong side of the blanket as the gardener king didn't mind where he stuck his dick and the true heir to the Reach are the florents. IF they hadn't backed the right horse in the conquest they would still be steward to the Florents. Getting a stark to marry one of them would be one the greatest coups of all time for that family if the rose slut couldn't marry into the iron throne then why not the Starks(whom unlike any other house in westeros besides the daynes are the unquestioned rulers of their domain and have been since the first men had rulers in the North, they may have been threatned and war has come to the north but the starks have endured. There have been no major regime changes in the north until now. So if they have to teat a bastard whom may or may not have been legitimized I still don't see the big deal. Because if this is a real world scenario then Jon being a bastard would be no big deal. James Stuward had so many bastards that if was hard to keep them all straight, yet Mary queen of scots raised her unlegitamized bastard brother James into her councils and he was one of her most powerful bannerman because of the titles and lands that their father had left him.

What the hell are you talking about? Yes, the Tyrells are a younger house then the Starks but that doesn't make the marriage between the Tyrells and Stark some great achievement on the part of the Tyrells.

Simply, you seem to have some fanfic ultimate mary sue Jon in mind in these hypotheticals.

[the conquoring bastard25]

Robb's goal when he first marched was not the throne of the north or the IT but getting his father out of KL alive. When Joff called for his head that was shattered.

If Robb could have defeated Tywin in the field and then marched on the capital by rights of conquest the throne would be his by right of conquest. It's not counterproductive because he's just become the conqueror of westeros and he did it with out the benefits of dragons.

Robb very well could have taken off his crown and handed the throne over to Stannis but his bannerman would have strung him up by his boots, so after the lannisters are defeated I see no other course of action but for him to take the throne. The realm would stay united and Margrety could still stay Queen. The wardenship in the north has just opened up and as the Stark children are now royalty and princes and princess of the royal blood that leaves Winterfell in need of a stark. Legitimize Jon and Robb knows that he would always have loyal lord of the north.

[Lee-Sensei]

House Tyrell is more powerful and wealthier than House Stark. I'm not sure why marrying a Stark would be raise their profile. If anything, it would do more to strengthen the Starks then the Tyrells.

[Minsc]

The wardenship in the north has just opened up and as the Stark children are now royalty and princes and princess of the royal blood that leaves Winterfell in need of a stark. Legitimize Jon and Robb knows that he would always have loyal lord of the north.

Being princes and princesses doesn't make them non-Starks, thus Robb wouldn't disinherit his children and siblings for Jon.

[Hypnomagica]

Besides inheritance, all Jon Snow's presence down south would accomplish is having the Wall overrun by Wilding as Jon Snow would not have been there to save them.

[Twenty of House Goodmen]

Dies at the RW. Simple as that.

[Mad Monkey]

Robb's goal when he first marched was not the throne of the north or the IT but getting his father out of KL alive. When Joff called for his head that was shattered.

If Robb could have defeated Tywin in the field and then marched on the capital by rights of conquest the throne would be his by right of conquest. It's not counterproductive because he's just become the conqueror of westeros and he did it with out the benefits of dragons.

That is true, but nowhere in the books does Robb express any interest in the Iron Throne. Even if he had beaten Tywin, there's no reason to think that he wants to march on KL and conquer it and rule it as King. He wants to be the King in the North and the King of the Trident. He has no designs in also ruling Dorne, the Iron Islands, the Stormlands, etc. None of his bannermen seem to want that either.

Robb very well could have taken off his crown and handed the throne over to Stannis but his bannerman would have strung him up by his boots, so after the lannisters are defeated I see no other course of action but for him to take the throne. The realm would stay united and Margrety could still stay Queen. The wardenship in the north has just opened up and as the Stark children are now royalty and princes and princess of the royal blood that leaves Winterfell in need of a stark. Legitimize Jon and Robb knows that he would always have loyal lord of the north.

Again, you're skipping a lot of steps here. All of this sounds like it would be neat for Robb if all of these dominos just fell into place on their own, but we both know that they won't. Meanwhile, none of this is any good for the Tyrells. They are the one who are going to be putting most of the work into any kind of coalition with the North since they have more money, more food, and more men. Joining forces with the Lannisters, who already have the Iron Throne under their physical control and two decent-sized armies, just makes sense in a way that joining force with Robb doesn't.

There's nothing that Jon can do to fix that. Geography goes against it, culture goes against it (the Northmen don't exactly speak lovingly of the Tyrells, and it's unlikely that the Tyrells especially like the North), politics goes against it... there are just no real good points for the Tyrells in this scenario that they couldn't get much easier doing almost anything else.

You've made a strong case for why Robb may want a Tyrell alliance but not the other way around.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

In an ideal world that some fans seem to live, Jon would single-hand win the War for Robb by killing Jaime, negotiating and showing off his superior diplomatic skills when treating with pretty much everyone, and probably invade the Red Keep and rescue Sansa by himself because he doesn't need companions.

In GRRM's realistic world and built on deep political intrigue, there are truly three options for Jon:

1) Jon is kept as one of Robb's personal guards. He dies by the hands of Jaime, who, it goes without saying, is much more skilled than Jon. Robb goes in an even bigger problem, because there's no possible will to Jon, and events would transpire much the same way they did.

2) Jon survives the Whispering Wood, and is sent (Though that would be possibly insulting) to Balon instead of Theon. He is probably kept as a prisoner, same as Sansa. Winterfell isn't sacked, so events would possibly look up for Robb, though he'd still more likely lose the war, only not murdered in a wedding.

3) Jon is kept by Robb's side at all times. This one's a pickle. If Robb still sleeps with Jeyne, Jon would be on board to marry her, especially considering the bastard POV. If his presence, as it seems more likely, halts such occasion, Robb isn't murdered at the Twins, but he still loses the war. Jaime would still be freed, Roose would still change sides and Robb would still lose.

So, most likely, the best possible resolution to such an event would be option number 2, that sucks for Jon, but well, It's still the North's best chance. There's no way Robb leaves Jon at Riverrun, Cat's childhood home, and is not possible to even believe he would be sent instead of Cat to deal with other Lords, since she is a great negotiator, and Jon is still inexperienced. At the Wall, things look worst than ever.

[MyLittleFinger]

I said that Littlefinger hadn't gotten to Highgarden as of yet. I said that because on his way north to get back to Robb he learns of Renly and his death that Marg is free to wed and that Highgarden hasn't gone over to stannis nor the lannisters as of yet.

I think that Jon might not be a deciding factor or anything I just think that if Jon had been at Robb's side there wouldn't have been as many political mistakes made. That he could have been used in places where Robb made some major political mistakes and as Jon's a bastard he had the unique position of being of the kings blood but as he's cant inherit he would make a shitty hostage.

Would Jon even be of "The King's blood." Technically he is Eddard Stark's "blood," not Robb's and Eddard was never a King, Robb is a King.

[Lee-Sensei]

^He's either Robb's half brother or his first cousin. Either way he's a close enough blood relation to count. Something similar was said about Tyrion during his trial IIRC.

[Good Guy Garlan]

I think the only way a Robb-Marg would be possible is if the Lannisters are finished and done (especially Joff, Tommen and Myrcella) by the time Renly dies and if Cat is not in the tent when the shadowbaby attacks.

That way the Tyrells have to choose between A) bending the knee to Stannis (no fucking way), B ) marrying Marg to Robb and getting her to become queen of the North, Riverlands, Reach, and in time, Westerlands, Stormlands and Crownlands, or C) going back to Highgarden and gaining absolutely nothing. I think I know what Mace would choose, but like I said, the Lannisters must be dead and done and Cat would need to not be a suspect of killing Renly to broker the alliance with Mace

In any case, I don't see Jon accomplishing this negotiation in a million years

[GallowsKnight]

Okay so there's definitely some fantasy floating around in this thread (which I myself may indulge in),

But even if everything still goes horribly wrong for Robb and he dies. If Jon isn't at the Red Wedding, say he stayed at Rivverun with Jeyne not to offend Walder. He could escape head North and be a rallying point for an anti-Frey/Lannister/Bolton rebellion.

[the conquoring bastard25]

For now I'm going to say this

Make Jon Legitimate it's a game changer.

Let Jon distigish himself in battle, as a foot soldier, calvary, archery where ever Robb felt he was need. That's a game changer that means that jon is making a name for himself apart from his brother but also bring honor to his brother's cause.

Let Jon be a mediator, shown to have skill with money, speaking with the lord of the North and Trident. Let his advice on course of politics and or battles that's a game changer. Let Jon be seen to acting in envoy, scouting, forging that's a game changer.

Let any of these things have come into play when dealing with the other lords of the north or trident, they will see that he's more than just a bastard (legitimate or not), he's not a lost cause.

Let word of any of his stronger characteristic reach the ears of those that he's going to teat with potential allies as a legitimate Stark with the full weigh of house Stark and it's bannerman behind him(at least in name he's the king of the North's brother) that's a game changer.

Let Jon have been treating with said Allies as a legitimate Stark and the ability to make marriage alliances and or military alliances with the full force of house Stark not as a Snow but as a Stark that's a game changer when he's treating with the rest of the lords.

If Jon were to work his way up through the ranks and go the rep of being an able soldier and then a battle commander, then that of councilman to his brother that's a game changer. Jon would be getting first hand experience of dealing with high lords and the game and how it's played. This will when then give Jon a practice of seeing what men really want when they come to the table to negotiate. As he's worked his way through the ranks he's gotten accounts of each of the other lords not from their betters but from the men that these lord thing of no account. One measure of a man and how to judge him is to see not how he treats his friends and their betters but those that work for them those that don't mean anything. That information when dealing with them at council tables would be invaluable because to move a man you must know a man and what they want. The common soldier wouldn't know first hand informantion about the lords but as they have been pledged to this lord or that lord for centries on end it stands to reason that they've heard the gossip and such. Those same tales that jon is learning while working his way through the ranks can be whisphered into the Kings ear.

I'm not saying that just because Jon is brother to the king that he should get anything for free. As a matter a fact I think that if GRRM had gone this route he would have made Jon earn his place beside Robb. THat he wouldn't automatically get special treatment and making him work his way up would be similar to the training that Jon would have gotten if he had stayed at the Nights watch that his blood would get his not favors and might even work against him until he proves himself the men.

Having Jon on hand legit or not and sending him on different mission might have proved better or worse depending on who he had to deal with. Dealing with Doran Martell if that's the way that Robb wanted to go it might work better in his favor that he's still a bastard as Doran doesn't seem to mind them, his daughter's sworn shield is bastard born after all and his brother had no less than 8 bastard daughters. Having a bastard Stark down in Dorne might not have been a bad thing because Doran might have seen a way to strengthen house Martell and gain some powerful allies. Not having to depend on house lannister and it's feeble mummur's show of justices.

Sending Jon to teat with Tyrion at KL when his Hand of the king might have been a game changer as he might have been more inclind to give back Ice to his bastard friends as he as a special place in his heart for bastards, cripples and broken things. Jon whom even before having to teat with Tormund and the Iron Bank is a skilled talker. It was his argument about the direwolves that allowed the children to keep the wolves. It was Jon talking to Aemon that got Sam in the night's watch. After Robb show what Tyrion did for Bran and that it was Jon's request that he do it is it really that much of a stretch that he would send Jon teat with Tyrion about Jamie and negotiations. Yet under the rules of being an envoy and a bastard he's of no real use to the Lannisters. IF they hold him that shows the world that the Lannisters are not men to make a peace to or even to teat. Kill him and no man would ever dare yield to them either because they wouldn't know if they were going to get a knife to the throat.

My point in this very long speech that put Jon in any one of the situations that helped spell disaster for the Young Wolf's short reign and the events are totally different.

Make Jon one of Robb's honor guard that means that he's with the king day and night and he's wouldn't let Jeyne and Robb happen or if it did he do his damned to make sure that he stuck true to his vows to marry a frey girl.

[Minsc]

Until Bran, Rickon, and Arya are dead and Sansa married to Tyrion, Robb isn't going to legitimize Jon in how that will affect their inheritance and he isn't going to screw over his siblings.

Nor is he going to make Jon, a bastard, his envoy in how that is just bad diplomacy as it would be seen as insulting those he is reaching out to. Moreover, Doran isn't going to side with the North despite who Robb sends as if Renly (who is a way better diplomat then Jon) with his overwhelming odds of defeating the Lannisters cannot get him to side with him then Jon has no chance.

Nor is Jon that great of a leader that he will be able to win over all these people to his cause that you pretend he is. Shit, Jon's poor skills as a leader got himself knifed by his own men in ADWD and that is after the NW knocked some humbleness into him. Thus more likely AGOT:Jon with his snotty attitude would alienate all of the bannermen by appearing to be a bastard that doesn't know his place rather then win them over.

[KingOfTheDirewolves]

There would be a great and mighty number of yaoi pi.... Oh, you mean that other part of being together, damit

[the conquoring bastard25]

That's why in the examples that I gave I said it would be better if Jon was a bastard because the two people he would be talking too don't seem to mind bastards. Doran has 8 bastard nieces and Tyrion and Jon are friends. That's why I said legit bastard or not(meaning that when he's talking to these individuals he very well might not be a bastard.)

Even when Robb makes the suggestion that he send Theon to the IB I think that he would have sided with Cat and named himself along with lord or heir of their cause to be his mouth piece. It could be just a mission where he sent to learn how to teat with other lords of the lands a bit of seasoning. But with Jon and Ghost on this mission with a Glover, maybe an Umber or Manderly in tow when they step off their ship and Jon has Ghost at his heel no man in that greeting party is who has come to teat with their lord. That the brother of the king of the north has sent envoys. Even if Ghost has to say in the yard he's still a very visible reminder of who Jon is and who's cause he's there for and who has his son. Jon doesn't even have to say much just listen be Robb's ears in the meeting him being there is another reminder of who has his son and whether theon gets back to the Iron Isles again depends on this meeting. The threat need not be said it's implied. Not all threats need be stated to be affective or known. Actually what do you think would be more unnerving Jon just sitting at the table not saying a word just listening while the other lords and heirs make Robb's cause known and felt to Balon Greyjoy. He's just sitting there listening taking note of everything. While outside that white wolf is stalking the yard or going back in forth on it's chain in the kennels. He's listening just sitting a very visible reminder as he looks like a younger version of Ned Stark the man that gave him his most crushing defeat and marched home on with his last living son. It would be like he's gone back in the years and he's once more watching his son sail away from the Isles, I think that it might make for a very effective ploy to get those ships and hold Balon's hand for awhile at least.

Jon had a snotty attidude for what 3 chapters in AGOT and then his attidude vastly improved. In my mind Jon doesn't leave he wall until after he's been passed out of training and about to take his vows. He wouldn't be the same man that he was when he first went to the wall. He's let the common boys in and made them his friends. He's taken Sam Tarly under his wing and saved him from having to be in training and not killed by the likes of Rast the next time they meet in the practice yard. He's talked to Aemon about making him his steward because his favor with the ravens and the fact that he can read and write. That's not the man that screamed at his uncle or Tyrion about fathering a bastard. This isn't the man that was bulling the common boys in the yard anymore either. This is the Jon snow who learned that Thorne was a shitty master at arms and took it upon himself to help with training some of the recruits that were under him in his training glass. This is the Jon snow who talked, laughted and took his meals with the likes of Pypar,Toad, Glenn and the rest. Jon doesn't stay a spoiled brat forever.

Jon by Robb's side would have been a very different book is all I'm saying.

[the conquoring bastard25]

To further illustrate my point about the meeting with Balon. Let say that Ghost is chained in the Kennel. We know what the dogs in the Kennel were like in Winterfell the screamed and howled for months after those wolfs got to the castle. SO the dogs are screaming bloody murder in the kennel and it's echoing off the walls of the castle the water making the sound queer inside, making it sound like the screams of the dogs and the horses are going mad all the while Ghost hasn't made a sound. Inside Jon is just sitting and listening all the while the animals of the castle are going mad at the scent of Ghost. Just another strong reminder of who Jon is and who's son he is. Looking like a mute silent Ned come back from the grave to haunt Balon all the more. An ever reminder of his failure and the deaths of his sons and how he had to give his son as hostage to the Starks. I think that might be more effective if not a little dramatic picture to be sure but no the less effective.

[Reek Da Villain]

All I know is, two direwolves on the field would have been bonkers. Imagine that.

[GallowsKnight]

All I know is, two direwolves on the field would have been bonkers. Imagine that.

Agreed. Imagine if Jon had been at the Green Fork. When the Northmen stole a night's march. If instead of pulling up and waiting for Tywin to get ready, Ghost had run along the horse lines much like Oxcross and then the Northerners descended in the middle of the night/early morning.