bpsae325 Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 But she can't do anything she wants. If the hostage isn't in danger of being harmed, there's no point in try to appease the captors. Even when Sansa does nothing wrong and plays the hapless, harmless victim, she is beaten, berated, threatened with rape, isolated, and scrutinized. And she's nearly always in the presence of Joffrey, who is unpredictably explosive and violent. He could have killed her without any thought of the consequences and she knows this. Several hostage situation survival tips are exactly what Sansa does: be polite and cooperative, stay put and wait for help, don't try to escape unless your certain you will make, try to get you captors to like you. Sansa gets a lot of criticism for her passivity, but that's precisely what's kept her alive. I respectfully disagree with your premise. Jaime did the exact opposite and was released, and after Joffrey killed Ned, Tyrion was there to keep him in check, and I honestly don't believe he would have let any real harm come to her, as she was the only hope to get Jaime back. He specifically tells Cersei not to let anything happen to her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolan Baratheon Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 Hahahahaha, how dare you speak for yourself when some Sansa fans will speak for you in regards to Sansa, your personal taste and opinion are wrong. Oh and your sexist cause you don't like Sansa cause her chapters bore you. I am not sure how the logic works there or maybe they don't know what sexism is. Your also a racist, not that you have said anything racial, it's just if we are going to abuse and make sexism claims like a two year old holding their breath, then lets throw in racism as well. Why should reality get in the way of anything. I wonder if some of them would call you a sexist if you said you didn't like Dany? You also need to be informed of your favorite color, food, and movie.I don't like Cat myself but do enjoy Sansa. Am I sexist? Cat is a woman and your not allowed to dislike her because that's sexism right? Oh and everyone has to agree with me because I am 1/32 Native American so if you disagree with me your a racist. Am I getting the hang of this new crazy from of logic? I don't like Cersei, i must be sexist right? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cocoalover1956 Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 I respectfully disagree with your premise. Jaime did the exact opposite and was released, and after Joffrey killed Ned, Tyrion was there to keep him in check, and I honestly don't believe he would have let any real harm come to her, as she was the only hope to get Jaime back. He specifically tells Cersei not to let anything happen to her. Fair enough, the situation is rather complicated with both sides having a hostage. If Catelyn hadn't let Jaime go, they could have reached a stalemate, after which we can only guess what might have happened. Jaime is a special case because his captors did want to kill him (though I'm not sure that Robb would go through with it with Sansa still in King's Landing), but Catelyn's rash actions saved him. He's supremely lucky in this regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nirolo Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 I don't like Cersei, i must be sexist right? :) Might I hop on this bandwagon and suggest that the term misandrist be applied to anyone who dislikes Chett and his egg-zied boils? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cocoalover1956 Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 Hahahahaha, how dare you speak for yourself when some Sansa fans will speak for you in regards to Sansa, your personal taste and opinion are wrong. Oh and your sexist cause you don't like Sansa cause her chapters bore you. I am not sure how the logic works there or maybe they don't know what sexism is. Your also a racist, not that you have said anything racial, it's just if we are going to abuse and make sexism claims like a two year old holding their breath, then lets throw in racism as well. Why should reality get in the way of anything. I wonder if some of them would call you a sexist if you said you didn't like Dany? You also need to be informed of your favorite color, food, and movie.I don't like Cat myself but do enjoy Sansa. Am I sexist? Cat is a woman and your not allowed to dislike her because that's sexism right? Oh and everyone has to agree with me because I am 1/32 Native American so if you disagree with me your a racist. Am I getting the hang of this new crazy from of logic? I can't speak for everyone, but for me its not so much that someone doesn't like a character but why. The "why" often has sexist implications and that's what I have an issue with. If Sansa's chapter bore you, okay, fine. If you don't like Sansa because you think she owe Tyrion love/sex, then I would call that sexist. You're allowed to dislike female characters, the problem is that some female gets very intense and misplaced hatred for reason that have sexist undertones. and perpetuate sexist thinking patterns. And please don't throw racism into the mix just to mock someone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpsae325 Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 Fair enough, the situation is rather complicated with both sides having a hostage. If Catelyn hadn't let Jaime go, they could have reached a stalemate, after which we can only guess what might have happened. Jaime is a special case because his captors did want to kill him (though I'm not sure that Robb would go through with it with Sansa still in King's Landing), but Catelyn's rash actions saved him. He's supremely lucky in this regard. It is undoubtedly a complex situation and Jaime was extremely lucky. I would like Sansa more if she gave zero f's and did things like make them call her princess (as her brother was KITN), didn't marry Tyrion, and didn't put up with any shit. It could have came back to haunt her but in ACOK the Lannisters really couldn't do much to her. I am a little surprised my Arianne/Sansa comparison hasn't gotten more attention, although it is 1230 AM so that could be why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cocoalover1956 Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 It is undoubtedly a complex situation and Jaime was extremely lucky. I would like Sansa more if she gave zero f's and did things like make them call her princess (as her brother was KITN), didn't marry Tyrion, and didn't put up with any shit. It could have came back to haunt her but in ACOK the Lannisters really couldn't do much to her. I am a little surprised my Arianne/Sansa comparison hasn't gotten more attention, although it is 1230 AM so that could be why. Well, I have to disagree with you there. I like the idea of protagonist who's a survivor but not a fighter, and doesn't risk her safety, but to each their own. I don't think she would have gotten any of that since she has no power in King's Landing, but I can understand the appeal. I think an interesting character comparison can be made between Sansa and Arianne. Both of them are highly born ladies who mess around in the game of thrones and put their fathers in tight spots. With Sansa it was unintentional, but it happened nonetheless; while you could make the argument that Arianne, even though she knew what was at stake, did not really understand the gravity of the entire situation. Personally, I hated Sansa in AGOT and ACOK, but i have warmed up to her, a little. I absolutely love Arianne though, I really enjoyed her chapters in AFFC and it probably has something to do with her overt sexuality, which is something we have yet to see from Sansa. Before everyone starts jumping on me for objectifying women, I would like to remind you that this is FICTION. I can see the comparison you're making, but its rather superficial right now. If you fleshed it out a bit more it could be a great essay. The reason we haven't seen overt sexuality from Sansa is because she's so young (only 11 in the beginning, and didn't get her period until ~halfway through Storm). But there are sexual themes in her storyline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpsae325 Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 I think I will write an essay on that, good idea. It will have to wait until tomorrow though. Nice debating with you, see everyone else? Rational debates are possible LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostcause Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 Really? From what I got from this thread Sansa fans seem to have pretty good idea who Sansa is unlike those who dislike her. And from what I get of this thread is that some of you have crazy prejudice vs anyone not liking Sansa, writing them off as sexists, insecure and/or of dubious intellect. :bs: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 I would like Sansa more if she gave zero f's and did things like make them call her princess (as her brother was KITN), didn't marry Tyrion, and didn't put up with any shit. It could have came back to haunt her but in ACOK the Lannisters really couldn't do much to her. So you would have liked her more if she plotted to get herself repeatedly beaten up by grown men even more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N/A Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 I don't like Cersei, i must be sexist right? :)count me in buddy :grouphug: i hate Cersei too :commie: just for the record , Sansa is my second favourite character , first is Cat , but I'm still sexist for hating that baby murdering woman Cersei ,right ? right ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 Some people got popcorns for this thread, I got ulcer as usual :) As Sansa fan, let me clear thing or two: 1. FACT ONE: Not all those who love Sansa are shallow and stupid.2. FACT TWO: Not all those who dislike her are misogynists.3. FACT THREE: You are free to like her or hate her, but stop spreading lies. She is indeed the worst person ever. I listed all her flaws and because I loved her, missed couple of her known crimes... BTW, read my sig "Why I love Sansa?" link. It explains everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AintNoStark Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 People still probably resent her for not being a true wolf of the North. In fact I do as well, although I like her. The Stark identity is a fantastic one and hasn't been done justice by any of the resent members other than Ned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCasualObserver Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 Well, we all knew it was going to get nasty. For my two cents, I disliked Sansa in the opening of GOT but once the tragedy's started building up I quickly began to feel sorry for her... and that's exactly what GRRM intended. Compared to the more assertive and less overtly "ladylike" Arya, Sansa comes across as both frustratingly passive and woefully outdated in her understanding of what her life should be like. Arya feels like a more modern character. But you'd have to be made of stone not to feel sorry for a thirteen year old girl who's lost her entire family, been regularly abused and is now trapped with an older man who clearly has sexual designs on her. One more thing; ever since we got the big LF reveal at the end of ASOS I've often felt that GRRM is playing with us a little bit back when he explains to Sansa that "life is not a song". Whilst it's true that the world is far crueler than Sansa believed at that time, I find it suspicious that LF is telling her this when HE is the one engineering her family's downfall from the get go. Maybe a suggestion that GRRM isn't quite as cynical as we previously thought? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woman of War Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 Yes the narrow minded view of a strong woman does have to do with dislike of Sansa, but lets not deny that sexism is also a big problem when it comes to Sansa. People dismissing her in this thread does has to with devaluing her because she has "feminine" traits and interests. Do have any idea how many people I have encountered why diminish Sansa accomplishment as de facto Lady of the Eyrie because householding is considered to be "domestic" and therefore too "feminine". Ignoring that holding a castle is pretty similar to ruling a realm.This is nonsense.Do you really think people dislike Sansa because she loves lemoncakes, nice dresses and designer curtains?Because she likes to be "domestic" and manages the basics of householding, meaning she gets the servants to work for her? All that is feminine? I myself am really good at doing all that so called feminine stuff, a good cook, I do great lemoncake varieties, a good tailor and interior decorator, I love my kids and yet I cannot really relate to Sansa. Apart from that I earn my money with the production of "beautiful" things in art. You are truly building a straw(wo)man here.It is Sansa's general approach to life people dislike. While Arya went out to find thirty eight different kinds of flowers Sansa wanted to stay inside. Sansa betrayed the family solidarity twice.And Sansa may be resilient but it is the only option of action she is willing to choose so far. She should not only turn her skin to steel but her brain as well. She is a person who has resigned to getting her life organized by others. She may be brave in enduring the life that has been given to her but in no way has she tried so far to find her own path, apart from "I want to go home" in an unreflected manner like a five year old in the back of the car.If you call that approach to life "feminine" then it is an outright offense to women. Look in-book at the character of Cat who had similiar interests and yet a totally different approach to life. Look at Sam who shares some of Sansa's interests and yet learns to develop competences in so many other things.Granted, when Sansa betrayed her family she was only a little girl. And all her lifetime she has been brainwashed by patriarchy into her specific approach to life, so this may make her an easy target for others. Yet I am still waiting when Martin may grant her the ability to question not only her situation but herself. No, she did not flinch at Mycah's or Dontos' death, she helped to frame Marillion. Would this be any different if she knew how to hold a sword and disliked stitching? It would make her a "masculine" snitch and liar. The turning point should soon come for her or the character could just as well sink into story oblivion. People have enough reason to like the character of Sansa less, and the so called feminity is not one of them, this is a huge misunderstanding, constructed to push all difficulties with the character Sansa into the corner of "politically incorrect" as killer phrase. A character could be perfectly amoral and yet stay completely "feminine" after your definition. And a character could save the world and yet be incompetent with weapons while being a good tailor. It is not what we do in life that count, it is our approach to life that makes the difference. And so far I do not like Sansa's approach.Bear in mind that while I may like someone like Sansa less as personality her literary character is brilliantly written and makes absolutely sense within the story. So I for sure do not dislike Sansa as literary invention but she is not among my favorites to root for. And it is an unpolitical approach if female characters suddely have to be "feminine" as opposed to "martial" for deserving feminist solidarity. It is feminist to refuse that categorizing.And Sansa is for sure not disliked for her feminine hobbies by parts of male AND female fandom.Sansa will have to try to shape her own life, I will like her then, no matter if she fails or succeeds, I will like her for trying, some of the best of Martin's characters might fail. She will capture me for taking her fate into her own hands and I will even enjoy her literary character if she turns far darker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan the Man Baratheon Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 That's a very good question. Of course I am still trying to figure out how anyone could hate Dany. :eek:Same here but i am trying to figure out how can anyone hate Stannis? :eek: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan the Man Baratheon Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 -snip- Dayum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chatty Duelist Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 That's a very good question. Of course I am still trying to figure out how anyone could hate Dany. :eek: Because she's a boring, shallow, pathetic, entitled, self-righteous, cruel, naive, rash, horny, idiot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingelheim Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 Some people got popcorns for this thread, I got ulcer as usual :) As Sansa fan, let me clear thing or two: 1. FACT ONE: Not all those who love Sansa are shallow and stupid. 2. FACT TWO: Not all those who dislike her are misogynists. 3. FACT THREE: You are free to like her or hate her, but stop spreading lies. She is indeed the worst person ever. I listed all her flaws and because I loved her, missed couple of her known crimes... BTW, read my sig "Why I love Sansa?" link. It explains everything. I don't think there's anything more to say. Great as always Mladen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chatty Duelist Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 I absolutely hated her on my first read. How can you be so daft? Tell the truth ffs!Then i liked her on re-reads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.