Benjen as coldhands

[Lummel]

As far as I remember there are four reasons to disassociate Benjen from Coldhands

First the "long ago" which has already been discussed

Second Coldhands speaks a language that Bran doesn't recognise when butchering the Elk - nobody on the Wall among the Watch speaks Old Tongue that we know of, it is a Wildling, Leathers, who has to translate for the giant in ADWD, which would suggest that the man has been dead for a long time indeed and has time to learn it (despite being dead) or comes from a place or time when or where something other than Common Tongue is spoken on ritual occasions - so not Benjen. Bran would know some Valyrian which again Benjen should know at least some words of.

Third Coldhands knows the location and the workings of the Blackgate which nobody on the Watch seems to know - Stannis tells Sam in ASOS that he will have to show the gate to Stannis - apparently there is nobody else on the entire Wall who can do this - so again that points to Coldhands having been alive in a time when the Black gate was at least known of if not regularly used (ie before or shortly after the construction of Castle Black, or several thousand years earlier).

Finally Coldhands covers the lower half of his face. The upper part of his face is uncovered. Yet despite travelling together for some time Bran never remarks on a facial similarity to The Ned, nor notices some familiar habit of speech or tone of voice. Coldhands remains an uncanny presence all the way through.

ETA I suppose you could argue that Coldhands is Benjen, but he knows about the Black Gate and Old Tongue because he is a conduit for the intelligence of Bloodraven / Old Gods - but then Coldhands would hardly be Benjen in any meaningful sense it would just be his body being used as a tool :dunno:

[stateofdissipation]

As far as I remember there are four reasons to disassociate Benjen from Coldhands

First the "long ago" which has already been discussed

Second Coldhands speaks a language that Bran doesn't recognise when butchering the Elk - nobody on the Wall among the Watch speaks Old Tongue that we know of, it is a Wildling, Leathers, who has to translate for the giant in ADWD, which would suggest that the man has been dead for a long time indeed and has time to learn it (despite being dead) or comes from a place or time when or where something other than Common Tongue is spoken on ritual occasions - so not Benjen. Bran would know some Valyrian which again Benjen should know at least some words of.

Third Coldhands knows the location and the workings of the Blackgate which nobody on the Watch seems to know - Stannis tells Sam in ASOS that he will have to show the gate to Stannis - apparently there is nobody else on the entire Wall who can do this - so again that points to Coldhands having been alive in a time when the Black gate was at least known of if not regularly used (ie before or shortly after the construction of Castle Black, or several thousand years earlier).

Finally Coldhands covers the lower half of his face. The upper part of his face is uncovered. Yet despite travelling together for some time Bran never remarks on a facial similarity to The Ned, nor notices some familiar habit of speech or tone of voice. Coldhands remains an uncanny presence all the way through.

First falls in favor of Benjen being Coldhands if he is less than 8000 years old and one does not create the imaginary intermittent Others.

Second: Lack of evidence is exactly that: Lack of evidence. Nothing in it prohibits Benjen from being Coldhands. Thos also applies to three.

Third: The lord commander and a large number of seasoned men of the Nights Watch were lost in the great ranging. Those that were left did not know. The knowledge of the old command is an unknown.

Finally; Benjen is not described similarly to Ned. Benjen has been on the wall for 15 years. It is likely he picked up the habits of speech of the Nights Watch. Coldhand's voice has apparently suffered since his death.

FOR:

Coldhands: Nights Watch, Ranger, Warg, thin

Benjen: Nights Watch, Ranger, Stark, thin.

Wights have existed in the last 3 years and 8000 years ago. Coldhands was killed by wights or Others. Benjen's men were killed by wights around 3 years ago.

[Lummel]

...Wights have existed in the last 3 years and 8000 years ago. Coldhands was killed by wights or Others. Benjen's men were killed by wights around 3 years ago.

I would say that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but since we know that wights have been common enough for cremation to be universal among the wildlings it seems that the idea that wights and white walkers haven't been around is mistaken.

[stateofdissipation]

I would say that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but since we know that wights have been common enough for cremation to be universal among the wildlings it seems that the idea that wights and white walkers haven't been around is mistaken.

To attribute the practice of cremation to safety from the Others instead of to tradition, is to engage in further speculation. 'Benjen covers his face to hide his identity from Bran' is speculation and conjecture as well. Neither is very helpful. Both are manufactured to prove a point that can't be supported in the text. However, the Benjen covering his faceto hide from Bran is not countered by direct passages.

Let us just wiki them:

The Others or white walkers are a species of humanoid beings that exist in the north beyond the Wall. At the start of A Song of Ice and Fire, the Others have supposedly not been seen for eight thousand years.

According to legend, the Others first appeared approximately 8,000 years before the War of Conquest, during a winter that lasted a generation and a period of darkness known as the Long Night. Eventually they were defeated, supposedly by the Night's Watch in the Battle for the Dawn, and the Wall may have been raised as a defense against them.

The Night's King appears to have married a white walker, but the Others have not been heard of again since his defeat. They are regarded south of the Wall as nothing more than fairy tales to frighten the little children. They are often mentioned in curses, such as "The Others take his eyes."

“

The Others are as dead as the children of the forest , gone eight thousand years. Maester Luwin will tell you they never lived at all. No living man has ever seen one. ^[16]

”

– Eddard Stark to Catelyn Stark

“

The Others are only a story, a tale to make children shiver. If they ever lived at all, they are gone eight thousand years. ^[17]

”

– Jon Snow

There are no recorded or quoted encounters with Others since the Nights King.

If one wishes to imagine, speculate or guess as to the activity of the Others, so be it. It is a guess.

[Lummel]

Not at all, we have a few things, Craster offering up his sons, the Wildling custom of cremation, Mance's attempt to gather up all the wildlings and move south of the Wall and the way that Mormont talks about the fisher folk glimpsing white walkers on the shore by East Watch. The wiki has no reputation for accuracy and certainly isn't definitive.

Of course the white walkers might have appeared recently relative to the beginning of the book, but that's likely to be more than three years.

[stateofdissipation]

Not at all, we have a few things, Craster offering up his sons, the Wildling custom of cremation, Mance's attempt to gather up all the wildlings and move south of the Wall and the way that Mormont talks about the fisher folk glimpsing white walkers on the shore by East Watch. The wiki has no reputation for accuracy and certainly isn't definitive.

Of course the white walkers might have appeared recently relative to the beginning of the book, but that's likely to be more than three years.

Craster is by far the most convinving evidence of Other's activity. However, none of that mentions wights just sacrifices to the cold gods. At best it pushes known Other encounters back 30 years.

There is no date associated with the wilding custom of cremation,

Mance's invasion plan came at the same time as the return of the Others.

Fine wiki is not the end all be all of information. A counter point would be nice though. The quotes about the time of the absence of the Others are valid.

Now, I will concede the likely presence of Others in the current generation... due to Crasters, the wildings, and Mance. Further back than that there simply is no evidence until the Nights King.

The conclusion that Coldhands is Benjen is quite intentional. The Nights Watch, Ranger, Warg, and matching physical description are pretty blatant. The evidence against is circumstantial at best.

If Benjen plays a role in the war with the Others, it will be as Coldhands. The Others have been in more books and chapters than Benjen has. If Benjen comes storming back to turn the tide after being completely absent for 4 books, the fate of the battle with the Others happened off page. As we have POV characters (Bran and Sam) searching for answers for the questions of the Others, those would either end up as non or divergent. Benjen is either a corpse (coldhands or dead dead) or a very clumsy plot device.

[Northernmonkey]

The conclusion that Coldhands is Benjen is quite intentional. The Nights Watch, Ranger, Warg, and matching physical description are pretty blatant. The evidence against is circumstantial at best.

I think you'll find the evidence that Benjen is Coldhands is entirely circumstantial.

Coldhands was in the Night's Watch, but so were thousands of others.

You say that they have a matching physical description, but that's debatable. We haven't even seen his face.

The Warg thing isn't evidence either. Firstly, we don't know that Coldhands is warging the elk, it could well be Bloodraven doing that. Secondly, there's no evidence of Benjen, Ned or Lyanna being a warg. There are plenty of other families with first men blood.

[stateofdissipation]

I think you'll find the evidence that Benjen is Coldhands is entirely circumstantial.

Coldhands was in the Night's Watch, but so were thousands of others.

You say that they have a matching physical description, but that's debatable. We haven't even seen his face.

The Warg thing isn't evidence either. Firstly, we don't know that Coldhands is warging the elk, it could well be Bloodraven doing that. Secondly, there's no evidence of Benjen, Ned or Lyanna being a warg. There are plenty of other families with first men blood.

Nights Watch, yes thousands... how many missing before the great ranging? they were looking for Benjen. That kind of narrows it down.

Both described as very thin other than that Benjen has sharp features and Coldhands covers his face.

The only person we have seen riding a wild beast was a warg. Coldhands presumably wargs the ravens and the elk. Bloodraven could be warging both the elk and the ravens to do Coldhand's bidding or be warging Coldhands.

The only family that is known to warg as a family is Stark. Yes others do it as well.

In the end the case is circumstantial either way Benjen or somebody else.

The evidence for and against stacks up pretty evenly. It could have been eliminated easily. The fact that nothing conclusively proves or disproves Coldhands is Benjen proves that the question is intentional.

It is exactly the same as R+L=J, the fate of Sandor, Robert Strong is Gregor, and is Aegon real.

[Northernmonkey]

Well I don't think we're ever going to agree, but in my view the evidence against Coldhands being Benjen is overwhelming. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

[achance76]

These are some of the reasons I believe that Coldhands is the first member of the nights watch.

[stateofdissipation]

Facts

Coldhands speaks a language that Bran doesn't recognise when butchering the Elk -

nobody-Currently- (Benjen was on the wall for 15 years) on the Wall among the Watch speaks Old Tongue that we know of, it is a Wildling, Leathers, who has to translate for the giant in ADWD, (As first ranger Benjen spent considerable time north of the wall with wildings)

ASSUMPTIONS

which would suggest that the man has been dead for a long time indeed and has time to learn it (despite being dead) Coldhands does not eat and therefore has no cause for ritual slaughter of animals or comes from a place or time when or where something other an Common Tongue is spoken on ritual occasions. The killing of the elk was the first ritualized killing of an animal. No evidence shows a language used during the practice. Bran would know some Valyrian which again Benjen should know at least some words of.

Facts

Coldhands knows the location and the workings of the Blackgate which nobody that was asked on the Watch seems to know - Stannis tells Sam in ASOS that he will have to show the gate to Stannis - apparently there is nobody else that was asked on the entire Wall who can do this

Coldhands knew Leaf and Bloodraven

Benjen was a senior leader

Assumptions

Coldhands was alive in a time when the Black gate was at least known of if not regularly used (ie before or shortly after the construction of Castle Black, or several thousand years earlier).

The secret and inconvienent door was ever regularly used or common knowlege.

The senior leadership did not know.

Bloodraven and Leaf did not know

FACTS

Coldhands covers the lower half of his face. The upper part of his face is uncovered. Yet despite travelling together for some time Bran and the book through physical description and dialogue never remarks or approaches a match with either the top of bottom of the face on a facial similarity to The Ned, nor notices or employs some familiar habit of speech or tone of voice. Coldhands a reanimated corpse remains an uncanny presence all the way through.

The Benjen could not be seems to be a case of one faulty assumptions and false dilemmas

[oursisthefury69]

Yea I truly don't understand how the "long ago" comment is used as irrefutable evidence he isn't Benjen.

I'd consider even 1 year long ago considering its someone who died and came back to life, idk why Bran wouldn't see that as a long time.

Its not as if the Cotf are stupid and are going to pigeonhole the conversation to their own bias.

Not that I personally even believe Benjen to be Coldhands or even dead for that matter, but it's a pretty stupid piece of "evidence" that GRRM could obviously still swerve in either direction, which is why I hate when people take their own theories for fact. Obviously GRRM is a good enough writer where if he wanted him to be benjen, that one line wouldn't stop him

[stateofdissipation]

Yea I truly don't understand how the "long ago" comment is used as irrefutable evidence he isn't Benjen.

I'd consider even 1 year long ago considering its someone who died and came back to life, idk why Bran wouldn't see that as a long time.

Its not as if the Cotf are stupid and are going to pigeonhole the conversation to their own bias.

Not that I personally even believe Benjen to be Coldhands or even dead for that matter, but it's a pretty stupid piece of "evidence" that GRRM could obviously still swerve in either direction, which is why I hate when people take their own theories for fact. Obviously GRRM is a good enough writer where if he wanted him to be benjen, that one line wouldn't stop him

It is pretty clear that George wants it to be a question... a word or two here or there would have settled it a long time ago..

I thought Benjen was alive as well for the longest. The problem becomes if he is alive and going to play a significant role in the war with the Others... He has spent an awful lot of time off page. With two books to go bringing back a character that has not had a line in the last four books seems a little contrived. Not only that the whole quest to save the world from the Others is currently in the hands of Bran and Sam. That is 2 POV characters serving the same function of one long forgotten one. If the long forgotten one saves the day that makes the 2 POV's kind of pointless or on divergent paths. There is still plenty out there to be brought together. I am not sure some more divergence would be productive.

[Northernmonkey]

IWith two books to go bringing back a character that has not had a line in the last four books seems a little contrived.

Not really. I think he's doing the same thing with Jaqen. In fact making characters disappear only to reappear at a convenient time later on is a common trope of adventure/fantasy books.

Not only that the whole quest to save the world from the Others is currently in the hands of Bran and Sam. That is 2 POV characters serving the same function of one long forgotten one. If the long forgotten one saves the day that makes the 2 POV's kind of pointless or on divergent paths. There is still plenty out there to be brought together. I am not sure some more divergence would be productive.

I think there will be a lot of characters who will help save the world from the others. Benjen, Bran, Sam and Jon will probably all play a role.

I'm convinced that Benjen is in the Land of Always Winter, either learning about the Others or as their prisoner, and that Bran will escape out the bottom of the cave and head North and meet up with him.

[Ser Onaventea Helms]

As much as I wish it was Benjen, it won't be him. When we see Benjen next (whether dead or alive) it will be at the brink of a HUGE plot development and actually MEAN something. Martin knows that everyone will be guessing it is him.

Also, why would he lie to Bran about who he is? If he is his Uncle Benjen, why wouldn't he just tell Bran and tell him the situation?

Besides, if the Children of the Forest say he died "a long time ago", I think it practically confirms everything.

[stateofdissipation]

As much as I wish it was Benjen, it won't be him. When we see Benjen next (whether dead or alive) it will be at the brink of a HUGE plot development and actually MEAN something. Martin knows that everyone will be guessing it is him.

Also, why would he lie to Bran about who he is? If he is his Uncle Benjen, why wouldn't he just tell Bran and tell him the situation?

Besides, if the Children of the Forest say he died "a long time ago", I think it practically confirms everything.

No. They killed him long ago

They'll kill him

He cannot come

What about the ranger

in reverse order

They are the wights... The wights are 8000 years old or recent. so that kind of limits the timeframe of Coldhand's death.

Bran

they will kill him.... as in some time in the future

Leaf

No.... not at some time in the future... They killed him long.... and since you left him either

If he is not Benjen why does he hide half his face?

Would I am your undead uncle really clear anything up for anybody?

[stateofdissipation]

Not really. I think he's doing the same thing with Jaqen. In fact making characters disappear only to reappear at a convenient time later on is a common trope of adventure/fantasy books.

I think there will be a lot of characters who will help save the world from the others. Benjen, Bran, Sam and Jon will probably all play a role.

I'm convinced that Benjen is in the Land of Always Winter, either learning about the Others or as their prisoner, and that Bran will escape out the bottom of the cave and head North and meet up with him.

If Jaqen left from Harrenhal, and was completely absent since then showed up in the last 2 books would be contrived. We at least have some vague hints about Jaqen here and there. We know Benjen is missing... and has been since book one... that is it.

[Deep Like Davos]

If he is not Benjen why does he hide half his face?

Could just be hiding His horrible nasty death wound. Why scare people, he just wants to be their friends.

This goes for whomever is Coldhands.

[the andorran]

One thing that makes me feel as though Benjen hasn't completely dropped out of the story (be he Coldhands, Warmhands, or Deadhands) is that GRRM seems to go to the trouble to remind the reader about Benjen intermittently. His appearance is very brief, but he gets mentioned not infrequently in the Wall-related chapters. By contrast, certain other subplots disappear almost entirely once the action goes somewhere else. This leads me to believe that the Benjen mystery will be resolved in one way or another, and that he has some sort of role to play. (Otherwise, why not wrap that storyline up in ASOS with the Great Ranging? There was opportunity.)

Right now, I'm leaning towards Benjen not being Coldhands, simply because it seems like if he were, that would've been cleared up in ADWD. I'm not sure what the point of hiding it and deliberately misleading the reader with "he died long ago" would be. GRRM has to know that Benjen is the only obvious candidate.

Of course, I do keep the possibility that Coldhands is Benjen only in the loosest sense of the word, and therefore perhaps not recognizable as such to Bran. Similar to Catelyn/Lady Stoneheart.

[stateofdissipation]

Could just be hiding His horrible nasty death wound. Why scare people, he just wants to be their friends.

This goes for whomever is Coldhands.

agreed....

it came off a thread asking why Benjen would lie to bran... the nasty death wound would explain both...