Sansa and Tyrion reconciliation?

[Jory Cassel]

Neither was the opressor. I don't see why we have to take sides. This is not a thread about which character is the better person.

Tywin was Tyrion's oppressor. Westeros is a society where one's obligations are to one's family, and for a dwarf, his social status was absolutely chained to his family. Yet his family was the source of his abuse.

Tywin, Cersei and LF are Sansa's oppressors.

Tyrion did what he could to help Sansa within the limited confines of his status as a dwarf and a Lannister. Certainly if he were Jamie he could have cut down her enemies with his sword and openly defied his father and abuser without consequence, but he was not Jamie.

He was not Sansa's oppressor and nor was she his.

Tyrion was given several options in regard to his marriage (no threats involved, compare to Cersei who was not given any choice by Tywin); he chose to marry a hostage in order to gain power and advance his position, thus he was her oppressor.

The part about him cutting down her enemies is utterly pointless as expecting him not to take advantage of her helpless situation is hardly the same as expecting him to actively act for her.

[WeddinGuest]

Tyrion was given several options in regard to his marriage (no threats involved, compare to Cersei who was not given any choice by Tywin); he chose to marry a hostage in order to gain power and advance his position, thus he was her oppressor.

The part about him cutting down her enemies is utterly pointless as expecting him not to take advantage of her helpless situation is hardly the same as expecting him to actively act for her.

ITA. In this particular context, Tyrion was Sansa's oppressor, not just a mutual victim. Sansa does have something to forgive. BTW, I don't think Tyrion being an "ugly dwarf" is anything Sansa holds against him. It's one reason why she's not attracted to him, but on the other hand she IS attracted to the ugly Sandor, who (unlike Tyrion) DID at one point try to free her from KL. And interestingly, Tyrion really doesn't seem to care about Sansa "humiliating" him at the wedding, nor do I remember him ever thinking Sansa helped frame him, though if anyone has quotes to prove he did, I'd love to read them.

[Winnief]

I was re-reading ASOS, and noted that Tywin specifically tells Tyrion, (when urging him to put a child in Sansa,) that a marriage that's not consummated can be put aside by either the High Septon or a Council of the Faith. I expect that to happen, probably before Tyrion even sails back to Westeros-LF will get impatient, and he'll have the means to get *someone* from the Faith to quietly declare the marriage invalid and make a decree to that effect, so he can have Sansa marry HtH and get him the Vale. He'll succeed in getting the annulment-whether Sansa actually marries Harry though, is another question entirely.

Frankly, i think it's the best thing for both of them. It lets them both put aside the mockery of a marriage and try to find real love-and build real relationships/families with other people.

[Mikkel]

I was re-reading ASOS, and noted that Tywin specifically tells Tyrion, (when urging him to put a child in Sansa,) that a marriage that's not consummated can be put aside by either the High Septon or a Council of the Faith. I expect that to happen, probably before Tyrion even sails back to Westeros-LF will get impatient, and he'll have the means to get *someone* from the Faith to quietly declare the marriage invalid and make a decree to that effect, so he can have Sansa marry HtH and get him the Vale. He'll succeed in getting the annulment-whether Sansa actually marries Harry though, is another question entirely.

Frankly, i think it's the best thing for both of them. It lets them both put aside the mockery of a marriage and try to find real love-and build real relationships/families with other people.

You need a bit more than "someone from the faith" - from your own quote: the High Septon or a Council of the Faith (the particulars of which I'm hazy on, but it's not just any old country septon).

[Kittykatknits]

Neither was the opressor. I don't see why we have to take sides. This is not a thread about which character is the better person.

Tywin was Tyrion's oppressor. Westeros is a society where one's obligations are to one's family, and for a dwarf, his social status was absolutely chained to his family. Yet his family was the source of his abuse.

Tywin, Cersei and LF are Sansa's oppressors.

Tyrion did what he could to help Sansa within the limited confines of his status as a dwarf and a Lannister. Certainly if he were Jamie he could have cut down her enemies with his sword and openly defied his father and abuser without consequence, bu

t he was not Jamie.

He was not Sansa's oppressor and nor was she his.

I've been following this thread for awhile now and I haven't seen anyone who views Tywin as the oppressor who left Tyrion with no choice whatsoever explain how it is that Tyrion himself, moments before the wedding, was able to suggest backing out and offer up Lancel in his place. If they were indeed equally forced and Tyrion had absolutely no choice in the matter, how is it he is able to make this offer?

[Hippocras]

ITA. In this particular context, Tyrion was Sansa's oppressor, not just a mutual victim. Sansa does have something to forgive. BTW, I don't think Tyrion being an "ugly dwarf" is anything Sansa holds against him. It's one reason why she's not attracted to him, but on the other hand she IS attracted to the ugly Sandor, who (unlike Tyrion) DID at one point try to free her from KL. And interestingly, Tyrion really doesn't seem to care about Sansa "humiliating" him at the wedding, nor do I remember him ever thinking Sansa helped frame him, though if anyone has quotes to prove he did, I'd love to read them.

look, this thread is over and over you and others saying Tyrion had a choice in the matter of the marriage, and plenty of counter-arguments have been given showing that any choice he had was pure illusion. We are talking about a man, still quite young, with no social status outside of his family, standing up to the most terrifying man in the realm all agree, who also happened to be his lifelong abuser and his father to whom he was utterly dependant. I say you are wrong that that constitutes a voluntary choice.

Sansa does too judge him for being ugly. On that count you are also wrong. It is a major hurdle for her. She knows he has been kind to her but cringes at his ugliness.

[Jory Cassel]

look, this thread is over and over you and others saying Tyrion had a choice in the matter of the marriage, and plenty of counter-arguments have been given showing that any choice he had was pure illusion. We are talking about a man, still quite young, with no social status outside of his family, standing up to the most terrifying man in the realm all agree, who also happened to be his lifelong abuser and his father to whom he was utterly dependant. I say you are wrong that that constitutes a voluntary choice.

Sansa does too judge him for being ugly. On that count you are also wrong. It is a major hurdle for her. She knows he has been kind to her but cringes at his ugliness.

ffs. It has been repeatedly pointed out to you that Tyrion was explicitely given a choice by Tywin; the choice was not 'comply with Tywin's order or defy him' (as you (mis)represent it), as a matter of fact, Tywin proposes other options by himself, including Lollys or the offer to keep looking for a wife for him. His economic dependance on Tywin is irrelevant too considering how Tywin did not threaten him with any economical repercussions. "Standing up" to Tywin is not what declining the offer would've been, either, as it was one option amongst others, again; compare to Cersei who was ordered and given no choice whatsoever.

I have yet to see valid reasoning that "any choice he had was pure illusion"; it certainly is not to be found in this thread.

[Dany Girl]

look, this thread is over and over you and others saying Tyrion had a choice in the matter of the marriage, and plenty of counter-arguments have been given showing that any choice he had was pure illusion. We are talking about a man, still quite young, with no social status outside of his family, standing up to the most terrifying man in the realm all agree, who also happened to be his lifelong abuser and his father to whom he was utterly dependant. I say you are wrong that that constitutes a voluntary choice.

Sansa does too judge him for being ugly. On that count you are also wrong. It is a major hurdle for her. She knows he has been kind to her but cringes at his ugliness.

And you and others keep using some "threat" as an excuse for Tyrion. There was no threat! There were 3 options, Tyrion took the one that was most beneficial to him. Tywin never threatened Tyrion into marrying Sansa, that is a completely fabricated idea. Tyrion was in no danger if he chose to either marry Lollys (with her family's blessing) or if he chose to wait to marry.

Yes, Lancel would have married her instead. So what? Tyrion, as far as his development goes, would have made the morally correct decision. Instead he made the selfish self serving decision. Go Tyrion, he's such a great guy!

[Hippocras]

How is letting her marry Lancel the morally correct decision?

Lancel participated in her abuse by Joffrey. Tyrion did not, and actually stopped same abuse. Tyrion is the better man.

Lancel would be a terrible lord of the North. Tyrion would not.

Nothing moral about leaving her to Lancel.

[jet199]

oh no, they do both have things to forgive. A lot of it is because they don't actually know to what extent the other was complicit in things that did them harm.

Sansa would have to forgive Tyrion for being a Lannister and for being an ugly dwarf. Tyrion would have to forgive Sansa for publicly humiliating him (intentionally or not) and for, as far as he knows, being involved with framing him for regicide.

There is lots to forgive on both sides.

But all of those things are not a question of intentional personal abuse or harm on the part of either.

Is there anything in the books that even hints that either feel they need an apology for any of these things?

Sansa only worries about Tyrion's looks on their wedding night. She always treats him respectfully. The idea that she dislikes him purely because he is ugly is not true because she has no problem fancying the Hound. She is unhappy on her wedding night because she has been forced to marry and she would have had the same reaction to anyone. The trouble is that Tyrion already has an issue with thinking that no woman could love him, but that is his problem not hers. Really he has put himself in a loveless marriage, with someone who will definitely reject, him partly because he thinks he can't have a normal relationship so is in fact reinforcing his beliefs by his own actions.

Tyrion is annoyed about the cloaking but it doesn't scar him, he has bigger problems. Also don't you think the whole situation was just as, if not more so, humiliating for Sansa, she was basically being shown how powerless and disrespected she was in front of the whole court. He doesn't think negatively about Sansa possibly killing Joffrey, in fact the reason he thinks she did it is that it was a reasonable thing for her to do in her positions. He does not try to pin the blame on her when he has the chance so it is unlikely he thinks she did something wrong or anything which she should be sorry for.

[Hippocras]

Is there anything in the books that even hints that either feel they need an apology for any of these things?

Sansa only worries about Tyrion's looks on their wedding night. She always treats him respectfully. The idea that she dislikes him purely because he is ugly is not true because she has no problem fancying the Hound. She is unhappy on her wedding night because she has been forced to marry and she would have had the same reaction to anyone. The trouble is that Tyrion already has an issue with thinking that no woman could love him, but that is his problem not hers. Really he has put himself in a loveless marriage, with someone who will definitely reject, him partly because he thinks he can't have a normal relationship so is in fact reinforcing his beliefs by his own actions.

Tyrion is annoyed about the cloaking but it doesn't scar him, he has bigger problems. Also don't you think the whole situation was just as, if not more so, humiliating for Sansa, she was basically being shown how powerless and disrespected she was in front of the whole court. He doesn't think negatively about Sansa possibly killing Joffrey, in fact the reason he thinks she did it is that it was a reasonable thing for her to do in her positions. He does not try to pin the blame on her when he has the chance so it is unlikely he thinks she did something wrong or anything which she should be sorry for.

Fair enough. Regarding the Hound - I think that is actually a really big part of her development as a character. We saw at the beginning how repelled she was by the Hound and could not even look at him. If she progressed after her near-rape to fantasizing about the man who saved her and grew to be able to see beyond his horribly scarred face that shows how her character progressed.

[mormont]

Tyrion did what he could to help Sansa within the limited confines of his status as a dwarf and a Lannister. Certainly if he were Jamie he could have cut down her enemies with his sword and openly defied his father and abuser without consequence, but he was not Jamie.

He was not Sansa's oppressor and nor was she his.

I'll remind you of our earlier exchanges... I think they covered this ground already.

First off, there is no sign - none at all - that Tyrion ever wished to have the ability to openly defy Tywin over the marriage, or Sansa's hostage status, etc. So there's no point in using the excuse that he didn't have the ability to do something he shows no sign of wanting to do. (He did successfully defy his father over the consummation, of course, which tends to undermine the idea that he was this helpless victim.)

Second, Tyrion was, for a long time, Sansa's chief jailer. He held her hostage. He married her knowing that it was against her will, and in the full understanding that he would be expected to have sex with her against her will. (That he didn't go through with it is of course a good thing and much better than if he had, but it doesn't change the fact that he was willing to marry her expecting that he would do it.) If your assertion is that these things somehow don't make him Sansa's 'oppressor', I'd suggest you're using a definition of 'oppressor' that is both cherry-picked to excuse Tyrion and restrictive to the point of making the word meaningless.

look, this thread is over and over you and others saying Tyrion had a choice in the matter of the marriage, and plenty of counter-arguments have been given showing that any choice he had was pure illusion.

And all of those arguments are, bluntly, feeble excuses that have been thoroughly refuted. We're entitled, therefore, to ignore them.

[Woman of War]

Neither was the opressor. I don't see why we have to take sides. This is not a thread about which character is the better person.

Tywin was Tyrion's oppressor. Westeros is a society where one's obligations are to one's family, and for a dwarf, his social status was absolutely chained to his family. Yet his family was the source of his abuse.

Tywin, Cersei and LF are Sansa's oppressors.

Tyrion did what he could to help Sansa within the limited confines of his status as a dwarf and a Lannister. Certainly if he were Jamie he could have cut down her enemies with his sword and openly defied his father and abuser without consequence, but he was not Jamie.

He was not Sansa's oppressor and nor was she his.

Agree

I only would add that Tyrion indeed could have done a lot of things better within the marriage to Sansa and before if ....... If he had not had this traumatising past to carry that made it extremely difficult for him to evaluate his interpersonal relationships. Today we would call him a victim of childhood trauma and highly neurotic. No one could possibly survive the experience of having been abuse victim turned into accomplice of abuse without damage. And so he compulsively tried to repeat the only loving relationship he had ever experienced in a delusional manner, with Sansa and with Shae. Yes, everywhere in the text we find quotes that he clearsightedly realizes his illusions while the next moment hoping against all hope that he could repeat the love to Tysha.

But this is what makes the character of Tyrion so hugely interesting: a study of a highly gifted young man with all his limitations, so very unusual for fantasy.

And, guess what? In the wedding chapter Sansa is at her most clearsighted self. The way she reflects about pity towards Tyrion and "pity as death of desire" is above the emotional intelligence she has shown at other situations. Yes, Tyrion is pathetic here. And yet it is Sansa who goes along with society's patriarchial expectations and undresses herself, convinced that it was not only Tyrion's right but also her duty to "consummate" the marriage, the child emulating the dutiful wife. And Tyrion indeed was not only compassionate towards Sansa, he also saved himself: he would have hated the act, he would have despised himself to no end if he had done the deed, once again mentally enslaved by his father. The wedding night chapter is brilliant literature.

Actually Sansa has reason within the system of forced and arranged marriages to see Tyrion as kind. Her status as married woman is of no disadvantage to her at the moment and maybe not for a very long time. And she has undergone far more traumatising experiences. The worst is of course seeing her own father getting murdered. These forums tend to have an ugly fixation on anything remotely linked to sex (rape is torture by means of sexuality, not sex) and so this horror seems to pale in the eyes of many Sansa fans. And she had to suffer several rape attempts, a guy she had started to see as protector had a knife at her throat, what a break of trust! Compared to all that Tyrion indeed was relatively kind.

No, they won't have many ill feelings - so far. And each of them has valuable informations about the other: they both know that none of them had a part in poisoning Joffrey, none of them is a kingslayer. And Tyrion knows some things about Baelish while Sansa may unveil any plot by LF to lure Tyrion into a trap.

Though we do not know where Martin intends to send these two characters. They may both end on a dark road, together or set up against each other. Only I do not really believe this.

[Hippocras]

yes he does show signs of not wanting to. Plenty.

[Jory Cassel]

How is letting her marry Lancel the morally correct decision?

Lancel participated in her abuse by Joffrey. Tyrion did not, and actually stopped same abuse. Tyrion is the better man.

Lancel would be a terrible lord of the North. Tyrion would not.

Nothing moral about leaving her to Lancel.

Not doing a wrong is the morally correct decision regardless of whether someone else does do said wrong, see WeddinGuest's example on the previous page.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

He definitely was not Sansa's oppressor, but lets not deny he was one of her jailors.

[Winter's Knight]

yes he does show signs of not wanting to. Plenty.

Quotes?

[Dany Girl]

How is letting her marry Lancel the morally correct decision?

Lancel participated in her abuse by Joffrey. Tyrion did not, and actually stopped same abuse. Tyrion is the better man.

Lancel would be a terrible lord of the North. Tyrion would not.

Nothing moral about leaving her to Lancel.

Lancel was practically dead at that point and no threat to Sansa. It would allow Tyrion to do the correct thing and get her back to her family as he promised. Or je could have warned her of plans and let her tell the Tyrells. The Tyrells would have asked for her for Willas (as she wanted) and Tywin would have no good reason to refuse.

[Hippocras]

Quotes?

I can't. I don't have access to the books. Hopefully someone else can round up the quotes.

To me it was absolutely obvious that he felt compelled and was very unhappy about it all.

[Hippocras]

Lancel was practically dead at that point and no threat to Sansa. It would allow Tyrion to do the correct thing and get her back to her family as he promised. Or je could have warned her of plans and let her tell the Tyrells. The Tyrells would have asked for her for Willas (as she wanted) and Tywin would have no good reason to refuse.

Lancel being no threat is irrelevant. He would still have been a Lannister, a reminder of the abuse she sufferered, a terrible husband and a bad Lord for her lands. There is nothing moral about leaving Sansa to Lancel.

Tyrion promised to do a prisoner exchange. As far as he knew his offer was refused. He had no idea Jamie had been freed because official word was that he escaped. So no, he had no promise to honour to return Sansa to her family.

As for the issue of warning - my memory is fuzzy on those details and I do not have the books. Can you provide a passage that shows he willfully kept information from Sansa without being pressured to do so by his father and abuser Tywin?