Sins that don't get enough mention/hate on the forums

[TheRatCook]

I can see that Arya, Sansa, and Joffrey all contributed to the Mycha/Lady situation, but Joffery is mostly to blame.

Sansa is naive and insipid...its debatable whether she is old enough to know better. And Arya is even younger at the time.

Sansa clearly didn't have any idea how much danger her family was in, but after the Mycha/ Lady indident, she really should have know.

Like h*ll if I'm gonna blame my own sister when people outside my family pull that kind of crap! I would have been livid...and smart enough not to trust Joffrey of Cersei again. Sansa really lacks intelligence.

[RoamingRonin]

Seriously! No one thinks what Arianne did to Arys was wrong and sinful?

Nope. What did she do I'm your eyes, exactly?

[Lee-Sensei]

I feel bad for Arys. He did something stupid out of love, but I think he was one of the nicer characters in the books.

But she willingly went along with it. Again, like Roose, she looked out for her personal goals at the risk of everything else. Theon had taken WF, the choices were defend it or abandon it, Theon wanted to defend it, she choose otherwise but she didn't abandon Deepwood Motte did she? Theon's prize could fall but hers no.

I get what you're saying, but I don't think she can be blamed for not saving Theon. She tried to get him to leave and he refused. That's on him. He should have sacked it and left.

[Roose The Weddingcrasher]

Nope. What did she do I'm your eyes, exactly?

In TWoW she (slightly) regrets manipulating him. He certainly seemed to trouble her conscience. He is to blame as well of course.

[Lady of Lemoncakes]

Women are not encouraged to go against their social norms in Westeros, and those that do are considered "freaks". This is a fact. Of course I think Arya did nothing wrong, but I'm a woman of 21st century American, not a woman of 300 AC Westeros. Sansa does have a right to place some responsibility on Arya, because if Arya would act responsibility (per Sansa's understanding of the world) then nothing would have happened. That is a fact. Arya is also responsible for escalating the situation, because in typical Arya fashion she freaks out and goes too far.

Her breaking social conventions has consequences. Should Mycha have died because of it? Hell no. But if Arya had acted like she's supposed to, then the situation never would have arisen. Hell, if Arya had asked Ned to teach her swords, he would have. And it would have been done in a way that Joffery would not have been able to challenge.

It's not victim blaming, it's showing the other side of the coin. Just as Sandor holds responsibility for his actions in the Mycha incident, even though he was following orders, Arya holds responsibility for sparking a bigger incident than needed to happen. Arya's temper will get her killed if she doesn't learn to control it.

Sandor only leaves "just fine" because the city is utter chaos. No one is paying attention to him. If he'd attempted to leave what is likely a sworn service duty, he'd have been branded a traitor and killed. Kinda like he was branded a traitor and a price was placed on his head after the blackwater. Knights and sworn swords don't get to just do what they want. They don't get to just quit. That's not how feudal societies work.

Arya bears no responsibility, at all. Is it illegal? No. Were they doing it right in the faces of hundreds of people? No. And actually, what you are saying is incredibly victim blaming, and actually rather sexist. How the hell is it Arya's fault? She doesn't have to follow stupid customs if she doesn't want to. If it was Jon Snow, they'd be no problem. Arya has no responsibility at all.

She doesn't have to run off to her father and ask for permission. She is a capable, smart and resourceful individual.

And of course Arya 'freaks out and goes too far'. That tends to happen when a friend of yours is physically threatened. Joffrey was being a massive bully and completely antagonistic. There is no way that Arya was going to tolerate that, and no reason why she should.

You don't blame Bran for climbing when his mother said no that resulted in a war, do you?

He chose to swore to obey. That was his decision, and he has to stick by it and any moral outbreak from it. He could have tried to run away. He could have lied that Mycah couldn't have been found. Do I realise the risk of such decisions? Yes. Yet Sandor chose to kill Mycah, and I'm not going to be nice about it considering he does enjoy killing. It's not going to cut it.

[Roddy the Ruin]

In TWoW she (slightly) regrets manipulating him. He certainly seemed to trouble her conscience. He is to blame as well of course.

this I agree with, but the fact remains SHE used sex and the prospect of love and marriage to get a young man to do something for her, which inevitably got him killed and dishonored.

[Dany Girl]

Arya bears no responsibility, at all. Is it illegal? No. Were they doing it right in the faces of hundreds of people? No. And actually, what you are saying is incredibly victim blaming, and actually rather sexist. How the hell is it Arya's fault? She doesn't have to follow stupid customs if she doesn't want to. If it was Jon Snow, they'd be no problem. Arya has no responsibility at all.

She doesn't have to run off to her father and ask for permission. She is a capable, smart and resourceful individual.

And of course Arya 'freaks out and goes too far'. That tends to happen when a friend of yours is physically threatened. Joffrey was being a massive bully and completely antagonistic. There is no way that Arya was going to tolerate that, and no reason why she should.

You don't blame Bran for climbing when his mother said no that resulted in a war, do you?

He chose to swore to obey. That was his decision, and he has to stick by it and any moral outbreak from it. He could have tried to run away. He could have lied that Mycah couldn't have been found. Do I realise the risk of such decisions? Yes. Yet Sandor chose to kill Mycah, and I'm not going to be nice about it considering he does enjoy killing. It's not going to cut it.

And raising a hand to the Crowned Prince is punishable by loss of hand or even life. It is absolutely illegal, no matter the reasoning. Arya knows that, yet attacks Joffrey. Arya does have a part in the fight and is partially to blame. Again, Joffery holds most responsibility, but Arya does have some.

Arya playing with Mycha is not illegal, but it is considered wrong on many levels. First, as a girl it is not her place. Second, she does not have her father's permission to learn such things. Even a son would need permission to learn how to fight, it's just expected from them so consent is expected. In our time it would be sexist, and it is sexist, but that's the world, it's the social norm and Arya knows her place. She deliberately goes against this with no regard for the consequences.

And no, blaming Bran for the fall is not remotely the same. If he'd fallen on his own, yes, I would blame him. But Bran didn't fall, he was pushed. If Jaime hadn't caught him, I'd blame Bran. But Jaime caught him and then threw him, thus the blame is on Jaime.

[bloody_mummer]

Sansa really lacks intelligence.

She is mind-numbingly naive, self-absorbed and just plain clueless. And weak. I hate weak people. Sansa is my #1 hated character. I cringe everytime I see her name at the top of the page.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

She is mind-numbingly naive, self-absorbed and just plain clueless. And weak. I hate weak people. Sansa is my #1 hated character. I cringe everytime I see her name at the top of the page.

I counsel you to find help if seeing the name of a fictional causes you so much anger. Anger issues are a real issue in society nowadays.

[Pod The Impaler]

Tywin sexually, emotionally and verbally abusing Tyrion

20 page thread, and it was over right here on page 1.

[The Drunkard]

Another "sinner" that gets a free pass is Sam. First, he is a pussy. Second, he refuses to live up to his duties and obligations as a first born male and to make a man out of him and help him claim his borthright. He gets to the Wall and then refuses ..refuses... to fight. He chooses to join a military brotherhood and then flat out refuses to fight. He lusts after and speaks to Gilly after being warned not to. He doesn't send the birds when the Others attack. He manipulates the election of the LC. And, he leaves Aemon to die on the deck of a ship.

Tell that to Puddles.

[Boarsbane]

Another "sinner" that gets a free pass is Sam. First, he is a pussy. Second, he refuses to live up to his duties and obligations as a first born male and to make a man out of him and help him claim his borthright. He gets to the Wall and then refuses ..refuses... to fight. He chooses to join a military brotherhood and then flat out refuses to fight. He lusts after and speaks to Gilly after being warned not to. He doesn't send the birds when the Others attack. He manipulates the election of the LC. And, he leaves Aemon to die on the deck of a ship.

Since when is being a pussy a sin? Also he did manage to send the ravens in the book.

[TheRatCook]

She is mind-numbingly naive, self-absorbed and just plain clueless. And weak. I hate weak people. Sansa is my #1 hated character. I cringe everytime I see her name at the top of the page.

Both weak people and vicious people are imbalanced. Weak people refuse to stand up for their own rights, vicious people overly assert theirs...to the point that they end up violating the rights of others. Weak is bad, and vicious is worse.

[Daena the Defiant]

Stannis murdering his brother.

Renly betraying Stannis (and Ned, for that matter).

Ned's shameful neglect of a) Sansa's education (court politics is no subject for a girl ... except you have just maneuvered her to be the NEXT QUEEN) and B} Jon's Snow's future... oh, he'll be fine just here as my bastard son... no prospects, no expectations of anything... maybe he'll be happy being Robb's valet some day.

[Swagwell]

Gottdamn Jon betraying Mance

Gottdamn Jon betraying Ygritte

Gottdamn Jons back an forth with the NW, of course they're gonna go all stabby on his flippity-floppin ass.

[franko99]

She is mind-numbingly naive, self-absorbed and just plain clueless. And weak. I hate weak people. Sansa is my #1 hated character. I cringe everytime I see her name at the top of the page.

Weak? I dare to say Sansa is one of the strongest psychologically and emotionally characters in the books, a lot of characters had break with less shit than what Sansa has to endure. Oh, and she is 14 :rolleyes:

On Topic now, Eddard for the (lack of) education he pass to his offspring, after what happened to Brandon and Lyanna, he should have made sure his sons and daughters don't be completely clueless about life at court

[Queen of Whores]

Why do people criticize Stannis for killing Renly when Brynden Rivers killed his own brother (directly) and no one says a word about it? I love both Stannis and Brynden, but I'm curious. Daemon chose to rebel and fight a war against the Crown, and died as a result of his choices. Same for Renly :dunno:

[Minsc]

Why do people criticize Stannis for killing Renly when Brynden Rivers killed his own brother (directly) and no one says a word about it? I love both Stannis and Brynden, but I'm curious. Daemon chose to rebel and fight a war against the Crown, and died as a result of his choices. Same for Renly :dunno:

Bloodraven was repeatedly condemned as a kinslayer, moreover for all we know Daemon is the one that threw the first punch while it was Stannis who attacked Renly first.

[sifth]

Bloodraven was repeatedly condemned as a kinslayer, moreover for all we know Daemon is the one that threw the first punch while it was Stannis who attacked Renly first.

So what's the right way out of that situation. Just allow Renly to get away with rebelling and make him king? Stannis did give him very fair terms to surrender I believe. Renly also seemed to show very little mercy when he was making his battle plans to kill Stannis; the only one he wanted taken alive was Barristan, if he was with Stannis's ground

[bloody_mummer]

Since when is being a pussy a sin? Also he did manage to send the ravens in the book.

Since the beginning of time. The strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must. Either you are moving force in charge of your own destiny or you sit back and take the shaft. Particularly sinful to be pussy when you are the firstborn male son in a fuedal society that operates under primogeniture.