TyrionsFlagon

World of Ice and Fire App Update

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I’ve found another issue. The pin sword for Vojjor Samvi (Kasath) is not on top of that city in the map, it’s south of Vaes Diaf (Hazdahn Mo).


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@Ran



Is there any possibility of having all the released excerpts from TWoW (includng those read at cons) collated and included in the app?


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Voalena (a river) is described as being west of Volantis, whereas the map clearly shows it is to the east of the city.


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Apparently Leng is referred to as being in the Summer Sea -- silly error there. Noting it here just to keep the compilation going. :)


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Confirmed by the app - Baelon was the second son of Jaeherys and father of Viserys I. This was widely believed to be the case after tPatQ, but not explicitly stated in that text.



Aemon therefore has to be elder son of Jaeherys and Alysanne.



New information from the App - Jaeherys and Alysanne had nine children. The app only names Aemon and Baleon as two of those children.


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Confirmed by the app - Baelon was the second son of Jaeherys and father of Viserys I. This was widely believed to be the case after tPatQ, but not explicitly stated in that text.

Aemon therefore has to be elder son of Jaeherys and Alysanne.

New information from the App - Jaeherys and Alysanne had nine children. The app only names Aemon and Baleon as two of those children.

Damn. At first glance, I just noticed the first line of your post, which I read as "Confirmed, Balerion was the second...". In a surge of excitement, I accidentally scrolled the page upwards and lost your post, only to frantically come back to find it again.

My mind was racing with the thought that Balerion was the second what? Second largest dragon on record? Second oldest? Something else?

Then I got to your post again, and saw with incredible disappointment that it was about yet another Targaryen, and not, in fact, about the DRAGON Balerion.

Oh well. The new info on the Ifeqevron is already highly interesting. Anyting else, other than more Targaryen family tree stuff, will no doubt be interesting too.

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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Wow, I hadn't seen this thread. Lots of interesting stuff.





Not sure if its a mistake but Alysanne Targaryen's mother is listed as Alyssa Velaryon but Jaehaerys doesn't have a mother listed. Were they half-siblings then?





IIRC, we had some confirmation that they were full siblings. (A post from Ran perhaps? I can't find the source)



I certainly wasn't expecting that Aenys had a Velaryon bride since we were told that it was a political marriage. The Velaryon support to the Targaryens would be taken for granted.





Aenys is listed as being 35 when he died, meaning he was born in AL 7 as his death is listed as AL 42. The app also says Aegon went to war with Dorne 4 years into his reign. His reign is dated at AL 1 even though the conquest was not complete for about 2(?) years. This must be the case though, as Aenys' reign is listed as starting in AL 37 and Aegon's reign is listed as 37 years.



So something is off with the timeline on Aenys' birth and/or Rhaenys' death. It looks like Rhaenys dies around AL 4-5, but Aenys isn't born until AL 7.





It doesn't sound right to me. If Aenys was born in AC 7, that would mean that Maegor was born in AC 12, when Visenya was 41. It seems very late, for medieval standards. Also, Aegon the Conqueror would have been childless after more than a decade of marriage with two women.



If it's not a mistake, there has to be an explanation for this.





Confirmed by the app - Baelon was the second son of Jaeherys and father of Viserys I. This was widely believed to be the case after tPatQ, but not explicitly stated in that text.



Aemon therefore has to be elder son of Jaeherys and Alysanne.



New information from the App - Jaeherys and Alysanne had nine children. The app only names Aemon and Baleon as two of those children.





It's great to have the placing of Baleon confirmed!



And the information of Jaehaerys and Alysanne having 9 children has very interesting ramifications. Aemon, Baelon, and perhaps a sister who married Baelon make three. A daughter who married Lord Arryn and was the mother of Viserys I's queen seems likely now. That still leave 5 unaccounted for. Those branches of house Targaryen sould be around during the Dance of Dragons, so perhaps we should look for them reread TPatQ.



I'm thinking now that perhaps a candidate could be Corlys Velaryon's mother, which would reinforce the status of Laenor and Laena, and would explain why both Rhaenys and Laena were considered for the throne in 102.


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Wow, I hadn't seen this thread. Lots of interesting stuff.

IIRC, we had some confirmation that they were full siblings. (A post from Ran perhaps? I can't find the source)

I certainly wasn't expecting that Aenys had a Velaryon bride since we were told that it was a political marriage. The Velaryon support to the Targaryens would be taken for granted.

It doesn't sound right to me. If Aenys was born in AC 7, that would mean that Maegor was born in AC 12, when Visenya was 41. It seems very late, for medieval standards. Also, Aegon the Conqueror would have been childless after more than a decade of marriage with two women.

If it's not a mistake, there has to be an explanation for this.

It's great to have the placing of Baleon confirmed!

And the information of Jaehaerys and Alysanne having 9 children has very interesting ramifications. Aemon, Baelon, and perhaps a sister who married Baelon make three. A daughter who married Lord Arryn and was the mother of Viserys I's queen seems likely now. That still leave 5 unaccounted for. Those branches of house Targaryen sould be around during the Dance of Dragons, so perhaps we should look for them reread TPatQ.

I'm thinking now that perhaps a candidate could be Corlys Velaryon's mother, which would reinforce the status of Laenor and Laena, and would explain why both Rhaenys and Laena were considered for the throne in 102. 101

Perhaps the support House Targaryen received from House Velaryon was getting less and less after the death of Daemon Velaryon? That could cause the political marriage of Aenys with Alyssa Velaryon.

If Visenya was 41 when Maegor was born, she would have been around the age of Rhaella when she gave birth to Daenerys. Taking the fact that Aegon spend more time with Rhaenys than Visenya in account, it is possible that Visenya was this old when Maegor was born.

Rhaenys' age when giving birth I find more interesting, to be honest. Rhaenys was born in 26 BC, and her firstborn son seems to have been born in 7 AC, when Rhaenys was 33 years old. For westerosi standards this is rather old to have your first child.

I can't seem to remember (or find a source). I know that Rhaenys had 2 or 3 daughters after Aenys' birth (reading of The Sons of the Dragon), but was there also a girl older than Aenys? Does anyone remember?

One of the children of Jaehaerys and Alysanne could also have been the ape princeling...

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The nine children of Jaehaerys and Alysanne are really very interesting. My guess is that there must have been more daughters than sons, and at least some of them might have been married to their brothers (I'd not be surprised if Baelon had a sister-wife; Aemon was probably too old to have a sister old enough to marry him). And I think it also very likely that either a sister of Aenys or a sister Jaehaerys (Rhaena?) was married to Orys' Baratheon son and heir (making Jocelyn Baratheon, most likely a granddaughter of Orys, also part-Targaryen).



As I've said earlier, the Ape Prince could have been a son or a grandson of Jaehaerys, and his cadet branch would have died with him, at least in the male line, since his son apparently predeceased him (the whole point of the ape thing).



But now, what could have happened to the 5-6 daughters of Jaehaerys and Alysanne (if there were only 3-4 sons, and Aemon did not marry a sister)? It could have had something to do with Jaehaerys' Conciliator title... What if he married his daughters into the most powerful and ancient Westerosi noble houses in an attempt to reconcile with the Targaryen reign? The best candidates for such matches are the former royal houses of Westeros. A daughter to House Arryn (Rhaenyra's maternal grandmother), a daughter to House Stark (reason as to why Jaehaerys and his court traveled to Winterfell), and a daughter to House Lannister. The Tyrells, Greyjoys, and Tullys don't appear to be noble or powerful enough to deserve such an honor, though.



The Hightowers would be the ideal Reach house to deserve a drop of Targaryen blood, because they are very ancient and did not actively oppose Aegon's Conquest (and they must have been very powerful until the High Septon moved to KL, being the city where the (former) leader of the Faith Militant resided - not to speak about their influence on the Citadel).



TPatQ seemed to indicate that Alicent had no Targaryen blood, but that was not actually the case in the case. Lord Lyman only stated that Rhaenyra had more Targaryen blood than her half-siblings, not that Alicent's children were only Targaryen on their father's side - that's what we all assumed, but it was not stated in the text).


It's easily imaginable that Alicent's grandmother (Otto's mother) was an older daughter of Jaehaerys, whereas Rhaenyra's mother was the daughter of a younger/the youngest daughter of Jaehaerys. Thus the Targaryen blood Alicent's children gained through her would have been 'more diluted' since it came from their great-grandmother, whereas Rhaenyra's maternal Targaryen blood came from her mother's mother. And claim-wise, the descendants of Alicent's grandmother would have a better claim through the female line because their ancestor was an older daughter of Jaehaerys (but that was no argument the Greens could use at the outbreak of the Dance, of course!).



Houses Baratheon and Velaryon would also be good candidates for yet another Targaryen match; it's very likely that Corlys Velaryon's mother was one of Jaehaerys' daughters (that could explain why Rhaenys - the only child (?) of Jaehaerys' eldest son - was married to him!).



We could also entertain whether the first Martell-Targaryen match happened during the reign of Jaehaerys as well. Not necessarily as an attempt to bring Dorne into the Targaryen Realm, but as a means to create a lasting peace after the troubled time of Aegon I, Aenys, and Maegor. I'd be very surprised if neither Aegon/Visenya nor Aenys/Maegor would have tried to settle their issues with the Dornishmen after the loss of both Rhaenys and Meraxes. Jaehaerys could have ended the time of hostilities up until Daeron's Conquest. That is, if his reign was all peace and quiet in regards to Dorne, too (we don't know that yet).



Finally, Ran should really confirm whether Aenys was really born after the Conquest, with his mother - and later Maegor's mother - being that old. Maegor's madness/infertility could be explained by his mother being very old by the time of his birth (and I'd not be surprised if she used magic to ensure that she would conceive a son).


Ran seemed to indicate recently that Aegon did have children pre-Conquest, so this whole thing now comes as a surprise. Originally I got the vibe from the reports on 'The Sons of the Dragon' that all children of Aegon and his sisters were born after the Conquest, assuming that Aegon only married his two sisters shortly before the Conquest (else it would have been very strange that they would not have any children at the age of ~30!).



As to the comparison with Rhaella/Dany: The fact that Dany was conceived rather late could be a point to assume that Rhaella was somewhat younger than Aerys. I did not get the impression that Bonifer Hasty was in his mid-/late-fifties (but he would have to if he was about the same age/a few years older than Rhaella), rather at about fifty.



What's now still unknown is the number of children Aegon and Rhaenys had (one son; either two or three daughters), and how many children Aenys had. We know that his eldest child was a daughter, and that he had a son, Jaehaerys, and two daughters, Alysanne, and Rhaena, but not if those were all of his children. We don't know if there was another son, or if he has two or more daughters, or if Rhaena or Alysanne, or another was his eldest child.


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Can't say I recall saying anything about Aegon's children. Pointer?


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I made a rather lengthy speculation about dragons, the ages of Aegon's children (and their dragons, discussing the approximate ages of both the Cannibal and Vermithor), and the fact that I assume that Aerion Targaryen may have only died shortly before the Conquest, which could explain why Aegon and his sisters had (apparently) no children at the time of the Conquest. You just dropped a vague line as to not speculate all that much about the time of Aerion's death and/or the time of Aegon's marriage.



That was about it. Perhaps you did not even reply to me. I'm not sure. It was most likely in the old TPatQ spoiler thread.


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The nine children of Jaehaerys and Alysanne are really very interesting. My guess is that there must have been more daughters than sons, and at least some of them might have been married to their brothers (I'd not be surprised if Baelon had a sister-wife; Aemon was probably too old to have a sister old enough to marry him). And I think it also very likely that either a sister of Aenys or a sister Jaehaerys (Rhaena?) was married to Orys' Baratheon son and heir (making Jocelyn Baratheon, most likely a granddaughter of Orys, also part-Targaryen).

As I've said earlier, the Ape Prince could have been a son or a grandson of Jaehaerys, and his cadet branch would have died with him, at least in the male line, since his son apparently predeceased him (the whole point of the ape thing).

But now, what could have happened to the 5-6 daughters of Jaehaerys and Alysanne (if there were only 3-4 sons, and Aemon did not marry a sister)? It could have had something to do with Jaehaerys' Conciliator title... What if he married his daughters into the most powerful and ancient Westerosi noble houses in an attempt to reconcile with the Targaryen reign? The best candidates for such matches are the former royal houses of Westeros. A daughter to House Arryn (Rhaenyra's maternal grandmother), a daughter to House Stark (reason as to why Jaehaerys and his court traveled to Winterfell), and a daughter to House Lannister. The Tyrells, Greyjoys, and Tullys don't appear to be noble or powerful enough to deserve such an honor, though.

The Hightowers would be the ideal Reach house to deserve a drop of Targaryen blood, because they are very ancient and did not actively oppose Aegon's Conquest (and they must have been very powerful until the High Septon moved to KL, being the city where the (former) leader of the Faith Militant resided - not to speak about their influence on the Citadel).

TPatQ seemed to indicate that Alicent had no Targaryen blood, but that was not actually the case in the case. Lord Lyman only stated that Rhaenyra had more Targaryen blood than her half-siblings, not that Alicent's children were only Targaryen on their father's side - that's what we all assumed, but it was not stated in the text).

It's easily imaginable that Alicent's grandmother (Otto's mother) was an older daughter of Jaehaerys, whereas Rhaenyra's mother was the daughter of a younger/the youngest daughter of Jaehaerys. Thus the Targaryen blood Alicent's children gained through her would have been 'more diluted' since it came from their great-grandmother, whereas Rhaenyra's maternal Targaryen blood came from her mother's mother. And claim-wise, the descendants of Alicent's grandmother would have a better claim through the female line because their ancestor was an older daughter of Jaehaerys (but that was no argument the Greens could use at the outbreak of the Dance, of course!).

Houses Baratheon and Velaryon would also be good candidates for yet another Targaryen match; it's very likely that Corlys Velaryon's mother was one of Jaehaerys' daughters (that could explain why Rhaenys - the only child (?) of Jaehaerys' eldest son - was married to him!).

We could also entertain whether the first Martell-Targaryen match happened during the reign of Jaehaerys as well. Not necessarily as an attempt to bring Dorne into the Targaryen Realm, but as a means to create a lasting peace after the troubled time of Aegon I, Aenys, and Maegor. I'd be very surprised if neither Aegon/Visenya nor Aenys/Maegor would have tried to settle their issues with the Dornishmen after the loss of both Rhaenys and Meraxes. Jaehaerys could have ended the time of hostilities up until Daeron's Conquest. That is, if his reign was all peace and quiet in regards to Dorne, too (we don't know that yet).

Finally, Ran should really confirm whether Aenys was really born after the Conquest, with his mother - and later Maegor's mother - being that old. Maegor's madness/infertility could be explained by his mother being very old by the time of his birth (and I'd not be surprised if she used magic to ensure that she would conceive a son).

Ran seemed to indicate recently that Aegon did have children pre-Conquest, so this whole thing now comes as a surprise. Originally I got the vibe from the reports on 'The Sons of the Dragon' that all children of Aegon and his sisters were born after the Conquest, assuming that Aegon only married his two sisters shortly before the Conquest (else it would have been very strange that they would not have any children at the age of ~30!).

As to the comparison with Rhaella/Dany: The fact that Dany was conceived rather late could be a point to assume that Rhaella was somewhat younger than Aerys. I did not get the impression that Bonifer Hasty was in his mid-/late-fifties (but he would have to if he was about the same age/a few years older than Rhaella), rather at about fifty.

What's now still unknown is the number of children Aegon and Rhaenys had (one son; either two or three daughters), and how many children Aenys had. We know that his eldest child was a daughter, and that he had a son, Jaehaerys, and two daughters, Alysanne, and Rhaena, but not if those were all of his children. We don't know if there was another son, or if he has two or more daughters, or if Rhaena or Alysanne, or another was his eldest child.

Has there ever been an indication to a Martell-Targaryen match before Myriah and Daeron II? I can't recall that..

About Rhaella:

She had an affair before her marriage. Aerys was no older than 15 when they married, so if Rhaella was younger than him, she would have been 14, and Bonifer around than age as well. Bonifer would not have been able to crown her the Queen of Love and Beauty, since at the age of 14, one does normally not enter a Tourney (15 seems to be the minimum age, with Jaime and Loras Tyrell as examples). So I'd say that Rhaella definitly was a year or two (if not more) older than Aerys, which would make her aged in her early 40ies when she died during childbirth.

Also, I don't see a 14 year old boy declaring that "no one can replace Rhaella in my heart" and thus forever giving up his titles and going down the road Bonifer went.

Edited by Rhaenys_Targaryen

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I was responding to speculation that Aegon was ont married at the Conquest because various lords offered him their daughters for marriage.

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Rhaenys,



a Targaryen-Martell match before Daeron-Myriah was never mentioned before. But I could see Jaehaerys doing such a thing, especially since real world nobles tend to marry exclusively their peers.



On Rhaella and Bonifer: There is some dispute whether this was an actual affair, or rather a deeply-felt love that was never sexually fulfilled. Bonifer turning pious after Rhaella's marriage to her brother could be a hint that they never actually 'did it', especially since dishonoring a Targaryen princess would have been a very serious crime back in those days. And it may have been difficult for Princess Rhaella to marry Prince Aerys if her affair had been public knowledge. Selmy was not yet in the KG back then, so his knowledge about Rhaella/Bonifer is either contemporary gossip he heard (indicating that the feelings Rhaella and Bonifer felt for each other were evident), or insight knowledge Barristan received from Rhaella herself after he had joined the KG. ADwD indicated the former.



From how I see it, Bonifer did only choose to not marry a woman. He turned pious as well, but he did not join any order of the Seven prior to the restoration of the Faith Militant (he most likely will/has already joined the Warrior's Sons by now). He is still a knight in AFfC, and if I get the concept of the abolishment of the Faith Militant right, then this means that you can't remain a knight while joining any of the other orders of the Faith. Maegor abolished both orders of the Faith dedicated to the Warrior.



Ran,



yes, I remember the whole thing now. Aegon was married during the Conquest, that much is clear. The fact that the Queen Regent of the Vale offered herself in marriage to Aegon should he name her son Ronnel his heir strongly suggests that Aenys was not yet born before the Conquest. But him being born as late as 7 AC would really be strange. That would mean that Aegon and Rhaenys did not try to conceive or did not want any children for at least 8-9 years or so. From a dynastic point of view, this would have been close to suicide...



And it would really make no sense/could not work if Rhaenys died during a failed attempt to conquer Dorne before the year 7 AC.


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Rhaenys,

a Targaryen-Martell match before Daeron-Myriah was never mentioned before. But I could see Jaehaerys doing such a thing, especially since real world nobles tend to marry exclusively their peers.

On Rhaella and Bonifer: There is some dispute whether this was an actual affair, or rather a deeply-felt love that was never sexually fulfilled. Bonifer turning pious after Rhaella's marriage to her brother could be a hint that they never actually 'did it', especially since dishonoring a Targaryen princess would have been a very serious crime back in those days. And it may have been difficult for Princess Rhaella to marry Prince Aerys if her affair had been public knowledge. Selmy was not yet in the KG back then, so his knowledge about Rhaella/Bonifer is either contemporary gossip he heard (indicating that the feelings Rhaella and Bonifer felt for each other were evident), or insight knowledge Barristan received from Rhaella herself after he had joined the KG. ADwD indicated the former.

From how I see it, Bonifer did only choose to not marry a woman. He turned pious as well, but he did not join any order of the Seven prior to the restoration of the Faith Militant (he most likely will/has already joined the Warrior's Sons by now). He is still a knight in AFfC, and if I get the concept of the abolishment of the Faith Militant right, then this means that you can't remain a knight while joining any of the other orders of the Faith. Maegor abolished both orders of the Faith dedicated to the Warrior.

Ah, good, I thought I had missed something on Dorne :)

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Amongst the nine children of Jaeherys and Alysanne there could have been several that died young, or died during any events that may be recounted in the Daemon story in "Rogues".



Another snippet from the app is that many of the cities along the northern coat of Essos are noted as having had Corlys Velaryon as their first Westerosi visitor.


Edited by Arataniello

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Oh well. The new info on the Ifeqevron is already highly interesting. Anyting else, other than more Targaryen family tree stuff, will no doubt be interesting too.

Interesting for you, you mean. As you can see from the discussion in this thread, working out all the elements of the Targaryen family tree are of interest to many others.

Edited by Arataniello

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Ran,


Will the Nook version update at some point? Or do Nook users have to buy the thing all over again--which would suck--to get the updated material?


Thanks


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No word on when the Nook update is happening, I'm afraid, but you can get the free app from the Play store to get the excerpt.


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If accurate, we've also learned that all 3 of Aegon V's sons married for love. Which most certainly means Olenna was lying about her being the one to break the betrothal!



I wish we didn't have to add "if accurate" to things coming from the app. It seems like everything in it should be in-arguably canon but there are just too many mistakes. I still think it's awesome and fun, to be clear. My complaints are minor.


Edited by History of Westeros

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