Thoughts on Sansa's Future...

[SpringKing]

Probably not. "There are no happy endings," as Sam said, and Sansa's unlikely to be exempt from that. GRRM doesn't seem particularly fond of her character, either--she's no Arya or Tyrion--so I doubt she'll warrant any kind of special treatment in terms of her ultimate fate.

Because of course GRRM writes his character arcs with no other end in mind than "shutting up the haters." :D

"No happy choice(s)" & "No happy endings" are repeated, like a raven quorking for corn, three times in Sam II, AFFC. We're being telegraphed not to expect a typical fairy tale where, despite their trials and tribulations, the heroes and heroines prevail over all to live happily ever after. In Sansa's case, her most ardent fans construe every difficulty and degradation she suffers as all the more evidence that, like Cinderella, she will triumph in the end. That somehow, in her darkest hour, a handsome prince will appear and whisk her away to his gingerbread castle where life will be a golden story and happy song.

The "haters", on the other hand, have a more cynical take on Sansa's situation. Those find that her internal flaws are as problematic as her external difficulties, that she is no pretty lass with a heart of gold, wrongly cast adrift in a landscape of murderous intrigue, her deserved good fortune teetering in the balance. Instead, Sansa presents more as the prototypical 'dumb blond', whose every selfish attempt is thwarted by inherent dim clumsiness, rather than rewarded by cold cruel cunning.

Sansa's arc appears destined not to magically elevate her high above the muck of a life she helped make for herself. If there is to be an uptick in her fortunes, it will not offer much solace. She may not finish totally submerged in her swamp of lies and deceit, but also not clean, dry, and thoroughly redeemed either. A fairy tale ending may seem tantalizingly close to her, yet impossibly out of reach.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Because of course GRRM writes his character arcs with no other end in mind than "shutting up the haters." :D

Clearly you haven't read my post. What I said was that the Queen in the North scenario. which could happen. would shut up the haters who love to claim Sansa is no Stark. GRRM is clearly setting her up for position of ruling and Sansa's narrative has been about the psychical yearning for the North. So the likelihood of her becoming Queen in the North is feasible and an satisfying ending of her narrative.

I see BRAN rebuilding Winterfell. Bran the Builder anyone? Maybe Sansa funds the project with LF money. Now that would be a B) cool Dream of Spring.

ETA: money she gets after LF dies.

I hardly doubt that Bran will end up doing that. I mean look at his narrative. His struggles is about not losing himself in magic and finding himself power and agency in the society that doesn't allow him that because of his disability. Plus he is goal is obviously fighting against the others instead of meddling with the politics of the North.

[Woman of War]

People conveniently choose to forget about Rickon when they pronounce a brilliant future for Sansa as queen in the north - over her brother's corpse. While we may assume that Martin has another destiny in mind for Bran I think that Rickon is in the story to be Lord of Winterfell.

[harry_dresden]

Jon Snow is at least respectful enough to realize WF doesn't belong to him, he even says "By right Winterfell should go to my sister Sansa."

If Sansa takes WF while Rickon is still an option that's a valid reason to complain about her character. Jon doesn't know B & R are still alive, but I don't see Bran ever getting back.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

People conveniently choose to forget about Rickon when they pronounce a brilliant future for Sansa as queen in the north - over her brother's corpse. While we may assume that Martin has another destiny in mind for Bran I think that Rickon is in the story to be Lord of Winterfell.

When have I ever said that I wanted Rickon dead? Please give me one little quote from my previous posts that I wanted Rickon dead. What I did state was that I hesitate to give an off-screen character as much narrative potency as an developed POV character. Rickon is essentially a wild card whereas Sansa's narrative has been about politics, ruling and physical yearning for Winterfell. There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting a lady in Winterfell who both cares about her people and has the political acumen to rule well. Whether you like Sansa or not her narrative arc is leading to some kind of political power.

[jet199]

"No happy choice(s)" & "No happy endings" are repeated, like a raven quorking for corn, three times in Sam II, AFFC. We're being telegraphed not to expect a typical fairy tale where, despite their trials and tribulations, the heroes and heroines prevail over all to live happily ever after. In Sansa's case, her most ardent fans construe every difficulty and degradation she suffers as all the more evidence that, like Cinderella, she will triumph in the end. That somehow, in her darkest hour, a handsome prince will appear and whisk her away to his gingerbread castle where life will be a golden story and happy song.

The "haters", on the other hand, have a more cynical take on Sansa's situation. Those find that her internal flaws are as problematic as her external difficulties, that she is no pretty lass with a heart of gold, wrongly cast adrift in a landscape of murderous intrigue, her deserved good fortune teetering in the balance. Instead, Sansa presents more as the prototypical 'dumb blond', whose every selfish attempt is thwarted by inherent dim clumsiness, rather than rewarded by cold cruel cunning.

Sansa's arc appears destined not to magically elevate her high above the muck of a life she helped make for herself. If there is to be an uptick in her fortunes, it will not offer much solace. She may not finish totally submerged in her swamp of lies and deceit, but also not clean, dry, and thoroughly redeemed either. A fairy tale ending may seem tantalizingly close to her, yet impossibly out of reach.

I would say that Sansa is actually somewhere in between the two views you outline. Sansa's arc shows that no one is coming to save her and she must learn to save herself. At the moment she is still in the learning stage but it has been spelled out to us by the fact that everyone who seems to want to save her either fails or is only using her. She is neither dumb nor has a heart which is any more gilded than any other goodish character. GRRM leaves us some clues where her strengths will lie.

If I am ever a queen, I’ll make them love me

His cousin Ser Lancel had been brought down by Ser Kevan, the first time he’d left his sickbed since the battle. He looks ghastly. Lancel’s hair had turned white and brittle, and he was thin as a stick. Without his father beside him holding him up, he would surely have collapsed. Yet when Sansa praised his valor and said how good it was to see him getting strong again, both Lancel and Ser Kevan beamed. She would have made Joffrey a good queen and a better wife if he’d had the sense to love her. He wondered if his nephew was capable of loving anyone.

Sansa has the ability to manipulate but not in a cynical way. She is no Machiavelli who thinks it is better to be feared than loved. I think it is a bit of a stretch to see her as the next LF because she doesn't have the same ambitions or love of playing the game. However she will probably develop her own way of doing things, learn to look after herself, learn how to inspire loyalty and be able to live under her own steam rather than having a "protector".

[harry_dresden]

and has the political acumen to rule well.

You keep saying this, but I highly disagree with it.

She does not have the political acumen to rule well from what I've seen.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

You keep saying this, but I highly disagree with it.

She does not have the political acumen to rule well from what I've seen.

Her position as the de facto lady of the eyrie and paying attention to what Littlefinger is doing - and since he is lord protector he does more than just manipulate - I would say that Sansa is learning how to rule.

[harry_dresden]

Sansa is not the de facto Lady of the Eyrie.

Stop that.

[SpringKing]

I would say that Sansa is actually somewhere in between the two views you outline. Sansa's arc shows that no one is coming to save her and she must learn to save herself. At the moment she is still in the learning stage but it has been spelled out to us by the fact that everyone who seems to want to save her either fails or is only using her. She is neither dumb nor has a heart which is any more gilded than any other goodish character. GRRM leaves us some clues where her strengths will lie.

Sansa has the ability to manipulate but not in a cynical way. She is no Machiavelli who thinks it is better to be feared than loved. I think it is a bit of a stretch to see her as the next LF because she doesn't have the same ambitions or love of playing the game. However she will probably develop her own way of doing things, learn to look after herself, learn how to inspire loyalty and be able to live under her own steam rather than having a "protector".

At the moment she is still in the learning stage for becoming LF's accomplice. Robb, Jon, Arya and Bran have all shown learning progress in their arcs. Sansa too, but not in the direction her fans wishfully think will culminate in the kind of success they project upon her. Sansa's die, like her siblings', is cast. Were she suddenly to become an independent agent dedicated to using her powers for truth, justice, and the Northern way, it would be as shocking a 180 as if Arya were to renounce killing.

Sansa's ability to manipulate is quite cynical, as evidenced by her thoughts about the only puppet she controls, Sweet Robin:

“I want a hundred lemon cakes and five tales!”

I’d like to give you a hundred spankings and five slaps.

Sansa's lack of intelligence is also demonstrated with SR, when she orders two cups of sweetsleep for him even though the maester is afraid to give him one. The second cup will occur early in TWOW, much to the detriment of SR's longevity as Lord Arryn. After she overrules the maester, she cynically thinks:

Colemon only wanted the best for his charge, Alayne knew, but what was best for Robert the boy and what was best for Lord Arryn were not always the same. Petyr had said as much, and it was true. Maester Colemon cares only for the boy, though. Father and I have larger concerns.

As for clues to Sansa's strengths - there are many counter-examples, such as her vow to Cersei:

"I’ll be a queen just like you, I promise.”

There is just too little evidence that Sansa might develop as a "goodish character" ​to consider all these advantageous forecasts as anything other than Pollyanna predictions. And far too much evidence to the contrary.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Sansa is not the de facto Lady of the Eyrie.

Stop that.

Meanwhile, after Lysa's death Sansa, still in the guise of "Alayne Stone", becomes the de facto Lady of the Eyrie, comforting her sickly young cousin Lord Robert while being tutored by Lord Baelish in some of the finer points of courtly intrigue. x

The Westeros page of Sansa says otherwise :rolleyes:.

[The Bastard of Walton]

I hope Sansa makes it to the end alive..... Nobody is safe from the cull & she is in dangerous waters still.

My Guess is she will have control of the Vale, same way Lyssa did via a child probably Harrys. GRRM mentioned a controversial Sansa chapter, maybe she will do a little culling of her own to gain control of the Vale.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

I hope Sansa makes it to the end alive..... Nobody is safe from the cull & she is in dangerous waters still.

My Guess is she will have control of the Vale, same way Lyssa did via a child probably Harrys. GRRM mentioned a controversial Sansa chapter, maybe she will do a little culling of her own to gain control of the Vale.

Except for that to happen Sweetrobin has to die and no way am I in favor of Sansa committing kinslaying.

[Winnief]

I hope Sansa makes it to the end alive..... Nobody is safe from the cull & she is in dangerous waters still.

Except for that to happen Sweetrobin has to die and no way am I in favor of Sansa committing kinslaying.

:agree:

Thing is, I think Sansa's actually becoming fond of SR...and might try to save him from Baelish.

[The Bastard of Walton]

Hopefully it wont come down to that, he is sick, could have a fit & Sansa could just stand back as he passes away. Some kind of controversy is coming in one of her chapters.

Really hope the Hound comes and saves her from Littlefingers games. Then she could rally the Vale to help Rickon retake the North!

[Queen Sansa Stark]

:agree:

Thing is, I think Sansa's actually becoming fond of SR...and might try to save him from Baelish.

What I want is for Sansa to go all mother wolf on Littlefinger for threatening to kill the pup she adopted. Sansa would have just much of power of the Vale if she saved Sweetrobin from Littlefinger. That way she would show to the Lord Declarants she is on their side and possibly earn their trust. Combine that with her being a Stark and the fact the Lord Declarants of the Vale wanted to join Robb she has them in their pocket.

Hopefully it wont come down to that, he is sick, could have a fit & Sansa could just stand back as he passes away.

I really don't believe that Sansa would be okay with it. She already has lost, at least in her mind, all of her family members except Jon. I hardly doubt she would allow another family member die. Especially if there is a chance she could stop it.

[The Bastard of Walton]

I hope your right, I hope Sansa will outplay LF in his games.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Really hope the Hound comes and saves her from Littlefingers games.

I know you mean it well with this, but I would be mad if this happened. Sansa represents the deconstruction of the damsel in distress trope and her being saved by someone would enable that trope instead of deconstruct. Her narrative is constructed in way that only she herself can save herself.

[Pod The Impaler]

Except for that to happen Sweetrobin has to die and no way am I in favor of Sansa committing kinslaying.

Aye. Little has been said about Sansa and Sweetrobin being cousins, but they are.

Mind you, her aunt seemed intent on chucking her out the Moon Door, kinship or no, but Lysa was not exactly stable.)

I do not think Sansa as we know her would willingly participate in her cousin's murder.

Yes, all can see Sweetrobin is on his way out, perhaps naturally, but she has shown compassion towards those who have meant less than him (Dontos), or even been foes (Lancel). Would she therefore just stand aside and let him die if she knew someone was causing it? I do not think she is likely to allow it to happen either.

It is a guess, but I predict that despite the cost or risk to herself, she may try to save the Lord of the Eyrie. She may fail, but she might still try.

Of course, if she did allow it or participate, then this would be a big indicator that her personality has changed.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Aye. Little has been said about Sansa and Sweetrobin being cousins, but they are.

Mind you, her aunt seemed intent on chucking her out the Moon Door, kinship or no, but Lysa was not exactly stable.)

I do not think Sansa as we know her would willingly participate in her cousin's murder.

Yes, all can see Sweetrobin is on his way out, perhaps naturally, but she has shown compassion towards those who have meant less than him (Dontos), or even been foes (Lancel). Would she therefore just stand aside and let him die if she knew someone was causing it? I do not think she is likely to allow it to happen either.

It is a guess, but I predict that despite the cost or risk to herself, she may try to save the Lord of the Eyrie. She may fail, but she might still try.

Of course, if she did allow it or participate, then this would be a big indicator that her personality has changed.

Sansa wouldn't allow it, but maybe Alayne would. Though I kind of doubt it. I mean even though she was "Alayne" in her last chapter she did occasionally slip back to Sansa. I hope that the threat of sweetrobin dying will force her to regain her identity and try to take down Littlefinger.