Breaking Apart The Quiet Isle: Purgatory Of Lost Souls

[Blazfemur]

Spoilers for all books, in case this conversation takes that direction, and I hope it does.

Ok, you've all heard the theory, many of you support it, many of you are against it. The Gravedigger on the Quiet Isle. Is it the Hound? No, it most certainly isn't. Is it Sandor Clegane? I want to believe it is, in fact it's one of the driving forces that makes me anticipate future novels.

This isn't to say I want a return of Sandor Clegane in future books after ADWD. There is a certain philosophy that joins with the idea of Sandor being the gravedigger. The character of Sandor Clegane for all intents and purposes, is probably the most redemptive character arc next to Jaime Lannister and Lancel (Lancel did, in fact, kill Robert Baratheon which paved way to Joffrey and his tyrannies, as well as sleep with family. In Lancel's eyes, he's atoning for a LOT).

This topic isn't just for Sandor Clegane and his possible existence/re-emerging as a possible azor ahai (no no, i wont go there, even that is too crackpot even for me, but ill go ahead and post those theories in the end as well). The Elder Brother, is also someone important from recent history, as he annotates he fought on the trident against Robert. Before he loses consciousness, he claims he "got smashed" in the head before letting the river carry him away (one could argue, Robert himself is who smashed Elder Brother with his warhammer, as "smashing" implies blunt weapon).

Who is Elder Brother? According to AWOIAF, "He is a tall man, with a large, square head, shrewd eyes, a veined, red nose, and a heavy jaw. He shaves his head." He shaves his head, this prevents any annotation as to what the color of his hair actually is (no, no secret targ implications here, i promise).

"Others thought him dead so they stripped his armor and possessions and dumped his body into the river. He floated downstream where he woke up naked on the Quiet Isle".

A lot of thought starts to churn here. While he could've just been any other knight that was presumed dead and ransacked, one cant argue that by doing all this ransacking, if his armor was enameled or special. What house did he belong to? We know he fought in support of house targaryen. i know some people out there may believe he could be rhaegar himself (don't, not happening).

It's implied Elder Brother has excessive healing ability, beyond normal means. Perhaps not supernatural like Thoros, but with an ability like that one would assume he may have had some maester-like background.

The whole idea of identifying Elder Brother does intrigue me, i have nowhere to begin from though. Apparently he served a lord, who served a lord, who served a lord who supported house targaryen, and he was one of three brothers.

Another symbol is Driftwood. Not only Stranger renamed, but the use and reuse of driftwood as a medium throughout the chapter. It's noted in elder brother's cave, everything was made out of driftwood, polished and crafted so many times it almost shone like gold. Perhaps they renamed Stranger Driftwood, as to imply they're trying to change it's primal tendencies and gradually make it less aggressive and more excessible. As it was, the only person to ever ride and tame the beast had been The Hound, and we all know The Hound is dead, and whatever rage and anger Stranger sensed within The Hound that made it submissive enough to be controlled by him, is dead and gone. Anyone that lacks the anger, or the rage that The Hound had, would have no chance in controlling or riding Stranger. Stranger would need to be tamed, or inevitably put down (again, wont mention azor ahai's nissa nissa because that's too nuts).

There's more to be implied in this chapter, as Elder Brother explains to Brienne that it isn't only driftwood that washes ashore on the quiet isle, but also, "...silver cups and iron pots, sacks of wool and bolts of silk, rusted helms and shining swords ... aye, and rubies."

Now, one might immediately go to the rubies portion of the sentence, and the following sentence when Hyle inquires if they're Rhaegar's rubies (again, Elder Brother is not Rhaegar), to which Elder Brother says they just might be. My emphasis is on shining swords. We are already aware of one valyrian steel sword that washed down the river, when a certain royal shit gets smacked upside the head with a stick and lets a mere girl throw his pretty blade in the river back in a game of thrones. If Rhaegar's Rubies could supposedly flow in that direction, then yeah I want to put my money Lion's Tooth could also be a shining valyrian sword that washed ashore, amongst other weapons that may have fallen during the battle of the trident (Rhaegar's blade couldn't have been normal steel, could it?)

As for the theories with Sandor Clegane, I agree with the theory that Elder Brother buried The Hound's armor, and placed his helmet on top. The Quiet Isle is a place defined as basically, "a place for people who have seen some shit, to get away from that shit, and make amends with themselves and stay away from the fighting." Elder Brother states The Hound died in his arms, and when last we see Sandor in Arya's chapter, he was sobbing and asking for release, even trying to instigate Arya into killing him. I believe, Elder Brother brought him back, and focused on that forgiveness Sandor was asking for.

Firstly, the mere insinuation that Elder Brother would KNOW that Sandor was with Arya instead of with Sansa, as he informs Brienne, HOW WOULD HE KNOW THAT!! How would Elder Brother know it was Arya and not Sansa, unless Sandor told him! And one would argue yes, Sandor would have had to tell Elder Brother, he could have told him right before he died in his arms. I ask you: is that really one of the first things you'd say to someone as youre about to die and begging for release? Or is that maybe regular conversation you'd have after the healing is done and you have more time to get into everything.

Let's face it: Elder Brother knows a LOT about Sandor. He knows a lot more than Sandor could have speedtalked his way through moments before death. He knew where Sandor came from, his background, his sins, his hatred, who he was. He even says to Brienne, when talking about the outlaws, "I will not call them wolves. Wolves are much nobler than that ... and so are dogs, I think." This I feel, would imply that he's having some success in reforming Sandor, and that he's showing signs of a turnaround. He then follows with Sandor's life story. Numerous times in this chapter is that gravedigger mentioned, his face hidden, lame per his injury, and a novice, which would imply he's relatively new to the service.

Elder Brother is putting Sandor on a redemption mission. He is the lame gravedigger, attoning for his sins by laying stark next to lannister, darry next to frey, etc just like he had said. He lived, and died by the sword, did The Hound. Sandor's biggest challenge, will be burying his hatred for his brother, whom he may or may not know is dead (Elder Brother knows, as he informed Brienne, that Oberyn killed him, but we don't know, if EB shared this information with Sandor). Furthermore, we don't know if Sandor knows about Robert Strong, and how his reaction will be.

I've said this before in many other threads, I'll put it here then put it to rest: I don't want to see Sandor vs Gregor, and I do not want to see Sandor vs Robert Strong. This goes against all he is attoning for, and all he has been striving for. As he is in the quiet isle now, showing up would just bring him back into the war, and that's something he definitely wanted to stay away from. There are no sides for him now: he deserted his service to the lannisters, he apparently is alive and raiding/raping all over (no one knows it's not him yet), and there's no one that would take him in.

It would be in his best interest, to live out his years in atonement, lumberjack dexter style (series finale of dexter reference). It would be a nod of relief, if that gravedigger is mentioned in future books, as healed, not lame anymore, and getting along with his brothers on quiet isle. I would love to see his atonement pay off.

....then again, i did mention id put in my vote for him to be azor ahai. they have valyrian steel, they have rhaegar's supposed rubies, why not remake that child's sword into a bigger, better one, rhaegar's rubies set in a driftwood pommel, with a valyrian steel bladein a driftwood scabbard?

Of course, Driftwood the horse, wouldn't recognize a repented Sandor, as the inner rage has all but left him. As Sandor tries to calm him, Driftwood attempts to bite Sandor, even kick at him, the only othr being alive Sandor connected with. Sandor, is forced to put Stranger down, after doing everything he could to get him to calm down.

Now I know mainstreamists would put their vote for Danaerys or Jon for Azor Ahai. Especially with how Jon's ADWD finale chapter ends... Personally, I'd like Jon to stay dead, the tragedy of him notfinding out is a bigger tragedy and makes for better writing, and George lovesto mess with your feels.

Sandor is reborn. The Hound is dead, and he is rebornas the new Azor Ahai. And it would be cool, if as an act to test his fears as the Hound, if Elder Brother insists Sandor put Stranger down with a driftwood blade, lit on fire, to conquer his fears of flame.

Sandor, to put down Stranger, with a flaming sword, by Elder Brother's presumption.

.....I still want to know who Elder Brother is though.

[Thendel]

Joffrey's sword wasn't Valyrian steel. Just saying...

[Blazfemur]

Hm, I thought it was. Was it only widows wail?

[SpringKing]

The Elder Brother does seem like a strong personality we should be able to connect a name from the Rebellion era to. The fact that he's waiting for the 7th ruby portends some action he intends to take when that happens. I dont think Sandor has any future role other than propelling Sansa's arc. But I do see a clash of religions building - BR & Bran representing the old gods; the High Sparrow and Elder Brother fronting the new gods; Mel & the red priests for the God of Light; Arya and the FM serving the Many Faced God.

[Veltigar]

I used to think the Elder Brother was Ser Richard Lonmouth. Nowadays I'm not sure anymore.

[Margaret Ballinger]

I agree Blazfemur! But also feel there might be something else going on, maybe it's all connected in some way?

GRRM was rasied Catholic. I myself was also raised in Christian belief, and although I no longer go to church I remember some of the Sunday school lessons. Someone else pointed out about Sandor's path to faith and made me realize that GRRM has actually said much, by saying little. I feel that Sandor will have an important role to play in the future books, exactly what I don't know. But I do believe that he will face Ser Strong. While Bran was being guided by Bloodraven he saw it happening. But I feel the reasons will be very different than just brother vs. brother. Why did Bloodraven show it to Bran if it wasn't very important?

Sandor's whole storyline is the lost sinner that is 'saved.' One going from darkness into the light. And strangely there is Arya who is much like Sandor, losing her parents to an evil brat, her home, her purpose in life, becoming bitter, hard and angry. And while he is now trying to get away from the path he was previously on, Arya's journey is taking her the other direction, right down that path and further into darkness.

First, there has to be a catalyst, some reason that causes Sandor to cahnge his ways. That was Sansa. He thought she was weak, many people do. But she has an inner strength, despite all they tried to do to, they could not break her. Even he tried to get her to abandon her views, telling her that there were no gods, the world was awful, and only sharp steel and strong arms rule the world. Those that live by the sword, shall die by the sword. She stood among them as Tyrion said "a deer surrounded by wolves," which she corrected him with "Lions." That is the lion shall lie down with the lamb reference. They all tried to corrupt her, every one of them, yet she never loses her faith or her morality. It's a lesson repeated often in the bible lessons, that whoever has faith in the great sheperd should have no fear of lions. I also remember the Daniel in the lion's den story, surrounded by lions, yet his faith saves him.

Also GRRM said that all the Stark kids have warging abilities, even Sansa. I believe she could read his thoughts, and in turn she projects her emotions onto him. She does this unknowningly. Also note that whenever he gets around her he loses his facade and starts confessing all his past to her, which he has kept secret from everyone. Then he always gets quiet afterwards, probably wondering what the heck just happened to him. She brings all his pain, all his past and all his beliefs up to the surface and makes him deal with it.

As he witnesses everything that Sansa suffers through, his eyes are opened to the truth. He is fighting for the people who are no better than his brother. Her abuse gradually becomes worse at the same time as he begins to feel more attracted and protective towards her. Then there was this moment when Joffrey ordered him to beat her, but Dontos quickly steps in. It was a close call that probably added to his distress and opened his eyes further. The last straw was the battle of Blackwater. He told her only cowards fight with fire, yet what does Tyrion do? The Lannisters are doing to hundreds of men, exactly what was done to him. I feel 'the Hound' died in that moment. It might be why he was drawn into her room on some level, telling her that he only knows he was the only one who lost all. That was his first step on the path to enlightenment.

Also I should mention that Sansa had saved her last prayer for him before the battle: "Save him is you can, and gentle the rage inside him." And the one time in his life he needed saving he got Elder Brother? A man gifted by the gods as a healer - to save his life as well as his soul? When praying for the Hound, the septon climbed up and "called upon the gods to protect their true and noble king" she thought "Let his sword break and his shield shatter, let his courage fail him and every man desert him." Oddly that didn't happen to king Joffrey, but it all happened to Sandor. Is this a clue or another red herring by GRRM? His sword broke at the twins while he was defending Arya. His shield shattered in the combat trial with Lord Beric. His courage failed him on the battlefield, and every man deserted him because he could not find anyone that would take him in. I try not to jump to conclusions, just stating that what she prayed for happened.

When Sandor captures Arya he heads to the twins to ask to join Robb Stark's army. Knowing he was a former Lannister they would probably kill him, but if he delivered Arya.... He mentioned this to Arya, that if Robb was smart he would take him in, that he needed him, and even mentioned willing to slay his brother to prove his loyality. Only after Arya said, "You? My brother would never take you." then he said he would take the ransom instead. So he is searching for a new path, and he thinks since the Starks are honorable and noble it might be why he wanted to join, to give his life purpose. It goes back to Elder Brother saying how wolves and dogs are both noble.

He probably saw a lot of himself reflected in Arya during their travels. Holding a mirror up to all his hate he has held onto for so long would make him feel ashamed. Being 'saved' or 'born again' in the faith first starts with the person coming into awareness of all their past sins, then confessing them, getting it all out, like drawing all the puss from a very old wound. After that the person pledges to live a new life and starts a long road to healing, as well as learning to walk the new path. In the Christian faith, the road of faith is always a crooked, less traveled path.

As Brother Narbert says: ". . .The path of faith, we call it. Only the faithful may cross safely. The wicked are swallowed by the quicksands, or drowned when the tide comes rushing in. None of you are wicked, I hope? Even so, I would be careful where I set my feet. Walk only where I walk, and you shall reach the other side.”

The path of faith was a crooked one, Brienne could not help but note. . .

. . . “Isn’t that where we want to go?” Ser Hyle called out from behind them, pointing at the septry. “We seem to be walking every way but toward it.”

“Faith,” urged Septon Meribald. “Believe, persist, and follow, and we shall find the peace we seek.”. . .

From King James Bible Isaiah 42:16 -

"I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them."

Sandor's whole story is that of salvation, rebirth and redemption. When Elder Brother spoke to Brienne she asked how he died and the answer was: "By the sword as he had lived." Again a reflection from that bible lesson about those that live by the sword... Then Elder Brother goes into all of Sandor's past emotional trauma and sins, and she sullenly said that Sandor was dead then. He corrected her by saying he was 'at rest.' Then Elder Brother continued with his own history, drawing parallels between his life and Sandor's, including similar sins. When she asked how he changed his life, he said "When I died in the Battle of the Trident." So apparently he is talking about death and rebirth of the soul, not actual death of the body.

I wouldn't mind the whole SanSan thing, but I don't see it happening. If Sandor is a novice then he took a holy vow of silence. This lasts for 10 years. He is a man of his word and I don't think he will break his vow. Because Sansa was beginning to pick up on his thoughts there is a possibly that perhaps in the future they could communicate in this way, or at least she would be able to know it was him, if GRRM ever has them ever meet again. Who knows? But I don't think they will live 'happily ever after.'

I remember that most biblical heroes, the ones chosen for a great task were the ones that had issues. They were often flawed in some way, fighting their own past sins. Those imperfect ones were the ones that became the instrument for good. Like the Moses story, he begged that god chose someone else because he didn't feel he was worthy enough. He was raised up with the Egyptian culture, then later while watching and hearing the cries of someone getting beaten his eyes were opened to all the evils that were being committed, all that he blindly been apart of. Now that he was aware he couldn't continure to live that way and he fled into the wasteland and almost died. He found peace and a new way of life. Content to stay that way, until he was 'encouraged' to go back and do battle against his former home.

I'm not big on religion, but to me all these biblical references are leading to something. GRRM is going to great efforts to create this story of redemption, so there must be something more to his story that is being set up for the future books. He wouldn't just end it after all that set up.

I feel GRRM is setting Sandor up for his greatest challenge soon. And I feel it's with Ser Strong since Bloodraven showed it to Bran. But the showdown is not about revenge or vengeance. Nothing like that. Since he is the gravedigger, laying his past to rest - then what is Ser Strong? It is dead, there is no doubt about it, but it has not been laid to rest. Ser Strong is a wandering corpse in need of a grave.

What Ser Strong is according to the old historical legends, is a revenant.

Wiki states: A revenant is a visible ghost or animated corpse that was believed to return from the grave to terrorize the living. The word 'revenant' is derived from the Latin word, reveniens, "returning." In most Medieval accounts, revenants return for a specific purpose, e.g. revenge against the deceased's killer or to harass their surviving families. Stories of revenants were very personal, always about a specific individual who had recently died, (unlike the anonymous zombie) and those who return are wrongdoers in life, often described as wicked or ungodly. All undead are thought to come from an unholy source. The appropriate response is some form of decapitation followed by burning.

That thing is no longer his brother. It is a mockery on many levels. Gregor was labeled a false knight in life, and was supposedly condemned to die for horrible crimes against the innocent. Yet now it stands as a kingsguard? Bran also saw Jaime facing it so maybe that will be his motivation, perhaps it's to protect Sansa, perhaps another reason, but at one point Jaime will also be standing before it.

It is armored like it is a warrior for the Faith, yet it is the complete opposite. It is nothing but darkness. From ghosts to vampires, throughout history there is stories and legends of the various religions fighting against the undead that rise to attack the living. I feel that when he faces Ser Strong, it will not be an issue of kinslaying, he will be doing something that is just. It is an abomination, with no soul, not human and easily the worst crime you can commit against the Faith. Also I feel that in order to kill something that is already dead, like with wights, you use fire. That will be the ultimate challenge for Sandor not only because of his terror to it, but also since he feels only cowards use fire. But I don't feel him taking out his brother with fire will be a revenge thing, because that is no longer his brother, it might not even have a head to identify it. He can't kill something already dead, so he would be doing it as a mercy, laying it to rest. As this will be the last part of his past left unburied, I wouldn't be surprised if GRRM shows Sandor weeping afterwards (if he survives).

I think that he wil survive it because of a clue that Ser bonifer told Jaime: I fear no shade, ser. It is written in 'The Seven-Pointed Star' that spirits, wights, and revenants cannot harm a pious man, so long as he is armored in his faith."

As for him being Azor Ahai - who knows? I like to look at all angles. I do believe there is more to Elder Brother than meets the eye. Also he knew who Brienne was looking for. She said maid of 3 and 10, he softly said "Sansa Stark." There is something there. To me he also has a knowing. More than the other Brothers she have met. He just is more..I don't know, sort of comes off as someone with abilities beyond just healing hands.

As for Brienne, I believe Oathkeeper is the Red Sword of Heroes. Down through the centuries the legends get changed, or even combined as Melisandre has done with the Azor Ahai / Prince that was Promised. There is also the stories of 'the last hero' that Nan told Bran. Perhaps Lightbringer and the Red Sword are two seperate legends as well that have been combined, or maybe two seperate swords, one lightbringer the other the Red Sword, maybe - maybe not. But Oathkeeper started out being called Ice and was with the Starks, Ned is refered to as being made of ice, and was killed with the blade. Then it was captured and reforged by the lions which turned the blade red, a color never before seen. The comet that Gendry called the "Red Sword" a new blade fresh from the forge. Arya said it wasn't a new blade, it was Ice with her father's blood on the blade. That sword is in Brienne's hands and the last time we hear of her she is attempting to lead Jaime somewhere. I thought perhaps she will be forced to kill Jaime and instead slays Lady Stoneheart with Oathkeeper. But that is just a passing thought. Jaime will live to face Ser Strong as Bran saw in his vision. So he will get away from the Brotherhood Without Banners. Also he had that dream when he was sleeping against the weirwood stump. That dream included him being led by cowled men that were silent. (monks?) They forced him into a pit where he was forced to face his past, his broken vows. Doom awaited for him once the light went out in his sword. Even thought Brienne was there, pleading that she took an oath to protect him, they still rushed past her at him and they were not concerned with her. His sword, his light, went out, and her's kept shining. This could be Bloodraven's doing, but I don't know. Who are the cowled men and why were they leading him to his doom?

Brienne was charged with finding Sansa and getting her somewhere safe. The only safe place she has encountered so far is the Quiet Isle with it's natural defenses. However it is doubtful she can spirit Sansa away at this time. Even though Elder Brother knew that she was looking for Sansa, he might not have known the details. And Brienne spilled it all, including how the Queen wants Sansa dead and how many people were out hunting her. Now the ball is in Elder Brother's court, so to speak. If Sandor is there, will he tell him that Sansa is in danger? I just feel there is more to Elder Brother's story. Also someone else pointed out that the Mad Mouse that was traveling with Brienne for a short time was hired by Varys to find Sansa. He somehow found his way into Littlefinger's employ and was introduced to Sansa, along with another knight who's description is similar to Elder Brother.

*My evidence of the 'Hound/Dravedigger' theory:

• Elder Brother is a phenomenal healer – better than the masters
  
• Hound had multiple wounds and was bleeding heavily, which put him into shock. And some people suffering from massive blood loss would run a fever and pass out (learned that on Discovery channel) He went down rather quickly, the next day. Arya said the one wound ‘smelled funny’ but she didn’t say it stunk as she did with Lommy Greenhands, who suffered from a leg wound for several days. Or like the man they found after the Red Wedding who she said smelled like a corpse. If the Hound had an infection, it was just setting in and wasn’t that bad yet.
  
• Narbert was taken aback that Brienne came there looking for the Hound. He seemed like he didn’t want to allow her onto the island, then saying because Elder Brother saw her coming to the island he better escort her to him.
  
• There was two novices waiting with Brother Narbert to greet her, however they quickly disappeared and she never mentions them again. Later she is told that they don't speak there, but are allowed to speak while confessing, rather than their usual way of communicating by signing. Those two novices 'could have' gone off to warn the gravedigger of Brienne's intentions. Which could explain why he lowered his head. All the others on the island gave her curious looks. And perhaps the rocky dirt flung at her was intentional?
  
• His horse is on the island. How did it get even there? It’s a warhorse that is trained to kill anyone else that comes near, so how was the Elder Brother able to lead it across sticky mud and crawling things? Assuming he didn’t have his own mount to lead as well. It’s more likely they went by ferry, but since the island is out in the bay there would have been waves that would have spooked the horse if the Hound wasn’t there to calm it (remember when they crossed the Trident?)
  
• How in the in the world are they caring for it? Horses need regular care, cleaning out it’s pen and grooming? Who is doing that? Why even do they keep a useless, dangerous animal? That is a working farm where they believed animals were just beasts of burden to be used, so why keep an animal that is no good to them? They would have sold or butchered it.
  
• How many characters are bigger than Brienne that are anywhere near that island? After he threw dirt on her he lowered his head so she couldn’t see. Not to mention he was new there, had a limp, and knew that spot behind dog’s ears they love to have scratched.
  
• When she met Elder Brother and he was informed of why she was there, he stopped smiling saying: “I see,” then changed the subject.
  
• They call him by his title of gravedigger, but never his name, when others she is introduced to are mentioned by name.
  
• When Brienne said she was looking for a maid of 3 and 10, he softly said “Sansa Stark.” How did he know?
  
• He tells her he buried ‘the Hound’ but always uses his title and not his name. Monks don’t wear armor, so I believe he just buried the armor. Why did he put the helm on the cairn? He used to be a knight and he was stripped of his armor when people thought him to be dead. He would have known the helm would have been nabbed by looters. And everyone would have known it was a grave, but he wanted to identify that “the Hound” is buried here.
  
• Also he states he puts rocks over the grave to keep the carrion eaters and scavengers away. The Hound was pretty bloody from his wounds and if he buried his bloody clothing and armor it would attract carrion eaters. If animals dug up the Hound’s armor it would expose the lack of a body.
  
• He told her his efforts were too little too late he died in his arms, but then goes on and on about the Hound’s whole life history and all his feelings. So it seems he spent a lot of time talking to a man that is supposedly is on the verge of death. He also mentions that dogs are as noble as wolves.
  
• Then when she asked is ‘Sandor’ was dead, saying his name and not his title – he replies “he is at rest.”
  
• After watching her sad expression he then goes into his life history which is pretty much parallel to Sandor’s as if he is trying to explain how himself, a similar man to Sandor, can redeem himself. She then asked when did his life change for him. He answered “When I died in the Battle of the Trident.” So to him ‘death’ doesn’t mean death of body, but a death and rebirth of the spirit.
  
• Brienne, being a little naïve, is not understanding why he is telling her all this and doesn’t know how to reply, so she just says, “I see.” He then leans forward and replies: “Do you?”
  
• He then pleads with her, again saying “the Hound” is dead (not saying his name). He tells her to give up hunting him and go home while she is still alive. He is hinting that she wouldn’t win the fight. And that her father would grieve for her and would rather have a living daughter instead of a shattered shield.
  

[Augustus Caesar]

I used to think the Elder Brother was Ser Richard Lonmouth. Nowadays I'm not sure anymore.

Elder Brother I believe is Jon Darry formerly of the Kingsguard

Ser Richard Lonmouth might be Lem from the Brotherhood

[ache]

If Sandor is a novice then he took a holy vow of silence. This lasts for 10 years. He is a man of his word and I don't think he will break his vow. Because Sansa was beginning to pick up on his thoughts there is a possibly that perhaps in the future they could communicate in this way, or at least she would be able to know it was him, if GRRM ever has them ever meet again.

You already pointed out the similarities between catholicism and the faith of the seven and I agree. I am hoping that the faith of the seven is similar also, in having a trial period to test ones vocation before vows are taken, akin to postulancy. Sandor is probably one of the few still alive who could and would tell of Littlefingers treachery regarding Ned. I am really, really hoping he gets to tell someone this.

One of my biggest questions regarding Elder Brother was why he was over a week's ride away from the Quiet Isle at the time he found Sandor. The monks on the Isle appear not to have a lot of contact with the outside world, aside from their prior trading with Saltpans and healing the people who come to them, it's why Septon Meribald was asked to hear confession. But we know Arya left Sandor barely a days ride from the Crossroads Inn, so what was Elder Brother doing all the way up there? He seems to be THE healer on the Isle as well as their leader but he had to have been away from the Isle for weeks at that time and I'd love to know why.

[Veltigar]

Elder Brother I believe is Jon Darry formerly of the Kingsguard

Ser Richard Lonmouth might be Lem from the Brotherhood

Darry was reported death, so I think there is 0% chance that he lives. We don't know what happened to Lonmouth. From a story PoV it would make more sense for the Elder Brother to be Lonmouth, but the backstory doesn't fit.

Therefore I believe that he's death.

[Margaret Ballinger]

You already pointed out the similarities between catholicism and the faith of the seven and I agree. I am hoping that the faith of the seven is similar also, in having a trial period to test ones vocation before vows are taken, akin to postulancy. Sandor is probably one of the few still alive who could and would tell of Littlefingers treachery regarding Ned. I am really, really hoping he gets to tell someone this.

One of my biggest questions regarding Elder Brother was why he was over a week's ride away from the Quiet Isle at the time he found Sandor. The monks on the Isle appear not to have a lot of contact with the outside world, aside from their prior trading with Saltpans and healing the people who come to them, it's why Septon Meribald was asked to hear confession. But we know Arya left Sandor barely a days ride from the Crossroads Inn, so what was Elder Brother doing all the way up there? He seems to be THE healer on the Isle as well as their leader but he had to have been away from the Isle for weeks at that time and I'd love to know why.

:agree: Totally!!

There is something more going on about Elder Brother.

I have been working out a timeline about it. The Hound went down rather quickly to massive blood loss, not an infection which was just setting in when Arya left. He was too weak to walk or as Arya surmised, couldn't even lift a sword. So It's doubtful he could crawl to the river for water. Arya said also that perhaps the wolves and wild dogs would smell him when the sun went down. He really was a bloody mess, very weak and probably wasn't able to get food & water. So I believe that the Elder Brother had to have found him not long after Arya left, probably within a few hours, but not more than a day or two, and certainly not six days (he wouldn't have lasted that long). So Elder Brother found him before Arya got to the Saltpans.

After Arya left on the ship, the raiders came to the Saltpans, and one was wearing the Hound's helm that was stolen off the grave. When the raiders arrived they raged because they missed the ship. It sounds like they traveling not far behind Arya, but they would had to have came by the Hound's grave only after the Hound was buried. So perhaps the raiders that were heading their way were only week behind? or maybe two at the latest? That's where I'm stuck on the timeline.

But at any rate the way I figure is that by the time the Saltpans were attacked, Elder Brother was either just arriving on the Isle or had arrived and was still tending to Sandor's wounds. The raiders were traveling not far behind Elder Brother. So perhaps when he told Brienne that he couldn't give absolution at the Saltpans it was because he was still trying to save Sandor's life and couldn't leave him? I don't know.

Also there is Brother Clement to add to the timeline. When Brienne arrived, the gravedigger was digging a grave for him. He had died from wounds sustained at the raid of the Saltpans, but he doesn't say how long after it took for Brother Clement to die from the wounds. But it couldn't have been more than a week or two. So add all this up and I would say it probably was less than a month after the raid when Brienne showed up on the isle, which is not long enough for Sandor to rully recover from his wounds. He was up and around and working, but was still healing.

What got me started on all this was Arya taking six days to reach the Satlpans. Sandor wouldn't have lasted six days. She stayed close to the river as most travelers would, and she didn't run across Elder Brother. So we have Arya leaving and heading to the Saltpans, then Elder Brother showed up and buried 'the Hound' and left, then the raiders came by and stole the helm, but somehow they all miss each other? That is what made me also think, like you ache, that Elder Brother's direction of travel was going towards the Isle, rather than coming from it. So why was he so far inland? Did he come by the Inn of the Crossroads and hear the tale of what happened? Did he learn of their direction of travel and come looking for them?

I figure that because when Brienne & Elder Bro. was talking about the Saltpans, Elder Brother asked "I wonder, my lady. . . what do you hope to find there?" and Brienne answered she was looking for, "A girl. A highborn maid of three-and-ten, with a fair face and auburn hair." His reply to that was "Sansa Stark." Ok, how would he know that? He not only would have known her description, but also know that she was missing. Sandor probably confessed all to him, including helping Arya. But did he also mention that Sansa had run off and the Queen, including the Mountain's men he killed, were out looking for her? Did he tell her her description as well? Could be, probably.

But perhaps Elder Brother could have already known about Arya and was looking for her? That might be a possibility if he was working with the Brotherhood Without Banners. There is a clue about that - he told Brienne about the Inn of the Crossroads. He knew who used to be the innkeeper there, Masha Heddle. That's not a surprise because her grandfather used to run the inn before her. But he knew it was the Lannisters that hanged her. That happened way back when Tyrion goes to the inn and sees her swinging. His father is there and he introduces the Mountain Clan recruits to him. I need to go back and re-read that. I know the inn is friendly to the Brotherhood Without Banners, but how far would news travel about her being hanged? This tells me that Elder Brother does or at least did travel that far. Why? That, and the fact that he knew it was Sansa's description. And the way he softy said her name, like he was either holding her in high regard, or he was telling a secret. The whole thing is just odd to me.

He knows an awful lot for a man that is on an isolated isle that rarely gets visitors. And he traveled quite a distance further than just the usual duties of going to town for supplies or to sell their cider. Also during that same timeframe Brother Clement was already doing the rounds, selling mead at the Saltpans. And as Arya pointed out, there were river barges that would take products up river, so there is no point for the Brothers to travel beyond the Saltpans. So Elder Brother was not out selling cider to the Inn of the Crossroads. He was in the area on another purpose. And also he has knowlege of who all is out hunting down the 'outlaws' meaning the Brotherhood Without Banners.

As for Sandor, I feel he has an important role to play in the future. And looking at what happened to him - I mean he saved Sansa from getting beat, he gave her her inner strength and a foundation to build on, but it was Sansa that truly 'saved' him. I feel there is a set up for him coming to her aid when the time comes. There is just too much build-up not to. I'm not a full-blown SanSan fan, but I do hope something more happens, at least that Sansa is able to see that her prayers were answered and he is a changed man. Or that he would know that she isn't lost somewhere with people hunting her. It's the whole fair maid being chased down by the evil queen story. But the evil queen has Ser Strong. And Bran does see both the Hound and Jaime facing it. Also the is the prophecy of the maid slaying a giant too. I just feel that the story is left unfinished and they will probably meet up again somewhere, and it's probable that Elder Brother will be involved with that somehow. I do believe they are attracted to each other, but I doubt it's the lust-fest that some fans want to see. (but I wouldn't mind if it goes that way either :P )

And GRRM does likes to toy with our emotions about it. In an interview when he was talking about the whole crazy SanSan crowd, and said, “I’ve played with it in the books. I mean there’s something there, but it’s still interesting to see how many people have responded to it.”

So, he admits there is 'something there,' and he enjoys seeing our reactions to it, but that doesn't mean it's going in the direction that the fans want. He is just messing with us to keep us hoping and guessing. My hope is that Sandor just lives. The man has suffered enough. If he is to live out his days in peace on that isle I would be happy with that.

+++

There's something else I thought of so let me tack it on here. Elder Brother knew from Sandor that he had Arya, and that she was heading to the Saltpans, but didn't know if she was one of the many children that were killed there because those children are all in the ground now. He might have also known through Sandor about Sansa running away, but he had heard it from his brother's men so it was heresay. They also said Riverrun was under seige and would yield soon. When Brienne got to the Quiet Isle she told him about her long and desperate quest:

"All of it came pouring out of Brienne then, like black blood from a wound; the betrayals and betrothals,. . .

. . . the long ride to King’s Landing, Sansa Stark, the vow she’d sworn to Jaime, the vow she’d sworn to Lady Catelyn, Oathkeeper, Duskendale, Maidenpool, Nimble Dick and Crackclaw and the Whispers, the men she’d killed . . .

“I have to find her,” she finished. “There are others looking, all wanting to capture her and sell her to the queen. I have to find her first. I promised Jaime. Oathkeeper, he named the sword. I have to try to save her . . . or die in the attempt.”

He might not have known all the details, but now he has been informed of how serious it was that she be found, of all the places Brienne has already searched, of all the places where Sansa isn't, and that Jaime Lannister wants her safe and protected, even if his sister wants her dead. So far, everyone (with the exception of Lord Manderly & Davos) believe that the only Stark that is left is Sansa.

But only Sandor, and now Elder Brother, know that Arya is alive. When Sandor was told that 'Arya' was found and was going to marry Ramsay so the Boltons could claim Winterfell, he knew it was a farce. Sandor is the only one that knew. And he told Elder Brother, who told Brienne. And the last time Sandor saw Arya, she was continuing on to the Saltpans, heading to her aunt in the Vale.

Well that puts it in all Elder Brother's hands doesn't it? He knows that the Hound was taking Arya to the Vale. And that the only family she has is either in the Vale or Riverrun or Jon at the Wall.

The question I ask is this - Is Elder Brother the type of man that would let this go? Would he stand back and let the Boltons uses a false Arya to claim the North? Essentially they are using a lie to steal Sansa & Arya's ancestrial home out from under them. Would he take any action after hearing Brienne's tearful story about her quest to help save and protect Sansa from the Queen?

If, and this is just a theory here....If Elder Brother was in the Brotherhood Without Banners and if he told them that the real Arya and Sansa are missing, could they have sent Tom O' Seven to search Riverrun? If they sent Tom there, what if there is also someone searching the Vale too?

It all goes back to Elder Brother, what he intends to do with the knowledge he has.

[Blazfemur]

A lot of you are wondering why Elder Brother was by the crossroads in at the time he found Sandor.

Is it quite possible he wasn't? Hear me out. From the single chapter readthrough, I recall that he says something like, "When I found him," now i could be wrong and most likely i am because i cant remember the chapter in it's entirety.

If it is "When I found him," there are hints that he's said that he's found many things that wash ashore and then lists them for brienne. Could it be Sandor could have flowed down the river and washed up on Saltpans? This would be around the time that area was raided by fire. Picture a different scenario, where Sandor washes up down by Quiet Isle, after the raiding.

Such a raiding by fire would leave a lot of smoke residue behind, still rising from the ashes of burned area.

....and sandor washes up from saltpans, by way of a saltwater river.

i cant continue pushing that theory though, it's way too out of the way of what will be written. im pushing sandor as azor ahai. reborn from the salt from the river and smoke leftover from the raid.

[Blazfemur]

I also didn't fail to read Margaret Ballinger's bolded line when Elder Brother says, "When I died on the battle of the trident." Elder Brother does, in fact, use metaphorical death more than once.

I also agree that the only way to bring Sandor out of retirement would be through a Sansa plot development. I don't think he'd bother with Arya, he knows how much Arya despised him. His complete arc would end with something developing with Sansa.

ETA: ....but think of this, as well. Sandor wouldn't know Sansa as Alayne, or know an inkling of Littlefinger's current plot. The last thing Sandor is aware of, more than likely is Sansa married Tyrion, together they killed Joffrey, and together they disappeared. He might also think ahead and assume the Lannisters would be hunting them down together.

I would think logically, if there is any drive at all, before winterfell, and the boltons, and the freys, etc, if Sandor was to re-emerge he'd head straight to the root of the problem -- King's Landing or Casterly Rock, if he wanted to damage them at home before heading to KL.

[Blazfemur]

:agree: Totally!!

There is something more going on about Elder Brother.

I have been working out a timeline about it. The Hound went down rather quickly to massive blood loss, not an infection which was just setting in when Arya left. He was too weak to walk or as Arya surmised, couldn't even lift a sword. So It's doubtful he could crawl to the river for water. Arya said also that perhaps the wolves and wild dogs would smell him when the sun went down. He really was a bloody mess, very weak and probably wasn't able to get food & water. So I believe that the Elder Brother had to have found him not long after Arya left, probably within a few hours, but not more than a day or two, and certainly not six days (he wouldn't have lasted that long). So Elder Brother found him before Arya got to the Saltpans.

After Arya left on the ship, the raiders came to the Saltpans, and one was wearing the Hound's helm that was stolen off the grave. When the raiders arrived they raged because they missed the ship. It sounds like they traveling not far behind Arya, but they would had to have came by the Hound's grave only after the Hound was buried. So perhaps the raiders that were heading their way were only week behind? or maybe two at the latest? That's where I'm stuck on the timeline.

But at any rate the way I figure is that by the time the Saltpans were attacked, Elder Brother was either just arriving on the Isle or had arrived and was still tending to Sandor's wounds. The raiders were traveling not far behind Elder Brother. So perhaps when he told Brienne that he couldn't give absolution at the Saltpans it was because he was still trying to save Sandor's life and couldn't leave him? I don't know.

Also there is Brother Clement to add to the timeline. When Brienne arrived, the gravedigger was digging a grave for him. He had died from wounds sustained at the raid of the Saltpans, but he doesn't say how long after it took for Brother Clement to die from the wounds. But it couldn't have been more than a week or two. So add all this up and I would say it probably was less than a month after the raid when Brienne showed up on the isle, which is not long enough for Sandor to rully recover from his wounds. He was up and around and working, but was still healing.

What got me started on all this was Arya taking six days to reach the Satlpans. Sandor wouldn't have lasted six days. She stayed close to the river as most travelers would, and she didn't run across Elder Brother. So we have Arya leaving and heading to the Saltpans, then Elder Brother showed up and buried 'the Hound' and left, then the raiders came by and stole the helm, but somehow they all miss each other? That is what made me also think, like you ache, that Elder Brother's direction of travel was going towards the Isle, rather than coming from it. So why was he so far inland? Did he come by the Inn of the Crossroads and hear the tale of what happened? Did he learn of their direction of travel and come looking for them?

I figure that because when Brienne & Elder Bro. was talking about the Saltpans, Elder Brother asked "I wonder, my lady. . . what do you hope to find there?" and Brienne answered she was looking for, "A girl. A highborn maid of three-and-ten, with a fair face and auburn hair." His reply to that was "Sansa Stark." Ok, how would he know that? He not only would have known her description, but also know that she was missing. Sandor probably confessed all to him, including helping Arya. But did he also mention that Sansa had run off and the Queen, including the Mountain's men he killed, were out looking for her? Did he tell her her description as well? Could be, probably.

But perhaps Elder Brother could have already known about Arya and was looking for her? That might be a possibility if he was working with the Brotherhood Without Banners. There is a clue about that - he told Brienne about the Inn of the Crossroads. He knew who used to be the innkeeper there, Masha Heddle. That's not a surprise because her grandfather used to run the inn before her. But he knew it was the Lannisters that hanged her. That happened way back when Tyrion goes to the inn and sees her swinging. His father is there and he introduces the Mountain Clan recruits to him. I need to go back and re-read that. I know the inn is friendly to the Brotherhood Without Banners, but how far would news travel about her being hanged? This tells me that Elder Brother does or at least did travel that far. Why? That, and the fact that he knew it was Sansa's description. And the way he softy said her name, like he was either holding her in high regard, or he was telling a secret. The whole thing is just odd to me.

He knows an awful lot for a man that is on an isolated isle that rarely gets visitors. And he traveled quite a distance further than just the usual duties of going to town for supplies or to sell their cider. Also during that same timeframe Brother Clement was already doing the rounds, selling mead at the Saltpans. And as Arya pointed out, there were river barges that would take products up river, so there is no point for the Brothers to travel beyond the Saltpans. So Elder Brother was not out selling cider to the Inn of the Crossroads. He was in the area on another purpose. And also he has knowlege of who all is out hunting down the 'outlaws' meaning the Brotherhood Without Banners.

As for Sandor, I feel he has an important role to play in the future. And looking at what happened to him - I mean he saved Sansa from getting beat, he gave her her inner strength and a foundation to build on, but it was Sansa that truly 'saved' him. I feel there is a set up for him coming to her aid when the time comes. There is just too much build-up not to. I'm not a full-blown SanSan fan, but I do hope something more happens, at least that Sansa is able to see that her prayers were answered and he is a changed man. Or that he would know that she isn't lost somewhere with people hunting her. It's the whole fair maid being chased down by the evil queen story. But the evil queen has Ser Strong. And Bran does see both the Hound and Jaime facing it. Also the is the prophecy of the maid slaying a giant too. I just feel that the story is left unfinished and they will probably meet up again somewhere, and it's probable that Elder Brother will be involved with that somehow. I do believe they are attracted to each other, but I doubt it's the lust-fest that some fans want to see. (but I wouldn't mind if it goes that way either :P )

And GRRM does likes to toy with our emotions about it. In an interview when he was talking about the whole crazy SanSan crowd, and said, “I’ve played with it in the books. I mean there’s something there, but it’s still interesting to see how many people have responded to it.”

So, he admits there is 'something there,' and he enjoys seeing our reactions to it, but that doesn't mean it's going in the direction that the fans want. He is just messing with us to keep us hoping and guessing. My hope is that Sandor just lives. The man has suffered enough. If he is to live out his days in peace on that isle I would be happy with that.

+++

There's something else I thought of so let me tack it on here. Elder Brother knew from Sandor that he had Arya, and that she was heading to the Saltpans, but didn't know if she was one of the many children that were killed there because those children are all in the ground now. He might have also known through Sandor about Sansa running away, but he had heard it from his brother's men so it was heresay. They also said Riverrun was under seige and would yield soon. When Brienne got to the Quiet Isle she told him about her long and desperate quest:

"All of it came pouring out of Brienne then, like black blood from a wound; the betrayals and betrothals,. . .

. . . the long ride to King’s Landing, Sansa Stark, the vow she’d sworn to Jaime, the vow she’d sworn to Lady Catelyn, Oathkeeper, Duskendale, Maidenpool, Nimble Dick and Crackclaw and the Whispers, the men she’d killed . . .

“I have to find her,” she finished. “There are others looking, all wanting to capture her and sell her to the queen. I have to find her first. I promised Jaime. Oathkeeper, he named the sword. I have to try to save her . . . or die in the attempt.”

He might not have known all the details, but now he has been informed of how serious it was that she be found, of all the places Brienne has already searched, of all the places where Sansa isn't, and that Jaime Lannister wants her safe and protected, even if his sister wants her dead. So far, everyone (with the exception of Lord Manderly & Davos) believe that the only Stark that is left is Sansa.

But only Sandor, and now Elder Brother, know that Arya is alive. When Sandor was told that 'Arya' was found and was going to marry Ramsay so the Boltons could claim Winterfell, he knew it was a farce. Sandor is the only one that knew. And he told Elder Brother, who told Brienne. And the last time Sandor saw Arya, she was continuing on to the Saltpans, heading to her aunt in the Vale.

Well that puts it in all Elder Brother's hands doesn't it? He knows that the Hound was taking Arya to the Vale. And that the only family she has is either in the Vale or Riverrun or Jon at the Wall.

The question I ask is this - Is Elder Brother the type of man that would let this go? Would he stand back and let the Boltons uses a false Arya to claim the North? Essentially they are using a lie to steal Sansa & Arya's ancestrial home out from under them. Would he take any action after hearing Brienne's tearful story about her quest to help save and protect Sansa from the Queen?

If, and this is just a theory here....If Elder Brother was in the Brotherhood Without Banners and if he told them that the real Arya and Sansa are missing, could they have sent Tom O' Seven to search Riverrun? If they sent Tom there, what if there is also someone searching the Vale too?

It all goes back to Elder Brother, what he intends to do with the knowledge he has.

For some reason, I just had an idea that Quiet Isle, wasn't just a metaphorical rehab facility. Why am I getting the feeling Elder Brother may just be, "Biding his time," so to speak. Like they have something else planned.

...why keep Stranger alive as Driftwood? If they wanted to rehab Sandor, wouldn't the best possible explanation be to destroy his war horse? Why keep it around?

Unless they intend to get more use out of it, in a later date perhaps. And they know Sandor's the only one that can control him.

[Margaret Ballinger]

For some reason, I just had an idea that Quiet Isle, wasn't just a metaphorical rehab facility. Why am I getting the feeling Elder Brother may just be, "Biding his time," so to speak. Like they have something else planned.

...why keep Stranger alive as Driftwood? If they wanted to rehab Sandor, wouldn't the best possible explanation be to destroy his war horse? Why keep it around?

Unless they intend to get more use out of it, in a later date perhaps. And they know Sandor's the only one that can control him.

I sorry, I don't agree with you about Sandor washing up because the raiders stole his helm off his grave. Elder Brother doesn't lie, but he keeps his answers vague. He buried the Hound's armor and clothing, which was pretty bloody, so when he said he put rocks on it to keep the carrion eaters away he wasn't lying. He doesn't lie, that is not the way of a true monk.

But I find your Azor Ahai theory interesting, I love to hear all theories, but please allow me to add something to ponder over. For the theory to be true he would have to be 'born again amist salt and smoke' - then what about the battle of Blackwater Bay? It was salt water and really smoky. He left not because of his fear of fire (that's the shallow view of it), it's was something more. He went back into the riot, when flea bottom was set on fire, to find his beloved horse. He's been in battles before, he rode in Tywin's army to sack King's Landing during Robert's Rebellion. Of course he has a more than healthy fear of fire, but I feel this time he he had more to deal with than just fire. It was that his eyes were finally opened to the truth. He finally saw everything. His whole life, his purpose, why he was even there engaged in fighting, that the people he was fighting for were doing exactly what was done to him by his brother...he saw everything. And at that moment he was changed, at that moment was when the Hound died and Sandor was reborn, admist salt and smoke.

And when he went to Sansa's room and she asked who was winning he answered he only know who was lost, him. And he had lost all. So if he was reborn to enter his 'second life' as Elder Brother said he was, wouldn't that be 'born again'?

A similar thing happened to my older sister, she was in a biker gang and was in a bad wreck that almost killed her. It opened her eyes to where she was going in life and she turned her whole life around. My mother being a religious lady told her that she had just been reborn, that she was a newborn with new eyes and she would have to learn how to live again. She was also giving her caution, saying that she would be tempted to fall back into her old life.

I'm sorry if I am rehashing over things I already mentioned. I don't have time to go back and re-read it all, I'm in the middle of baking cookies. lol.

I don't know about his horse. He loves that horse, so I don't know if they would destroy it. Also it's personality is much like Sandor's personality, so to me if Sandor is still worthy of saving, why not his horse? Brother Narbert? was it? said that the men come there to escape the horrors of the world. Also septon Meribald mentions this as well. He gives a speech to Brienne about when a man is broken, how he started out with the best of intentions but war slowly turned him into a beast. But he feels pity for broken men and when he finds them he asks if they want to go to the Quiet Isle. It sort of sounded like a metaphor for Sandor, I need to re-read a lot of chapters.

Ok so here is a rough timeline:

• Sandor recieves major injuries at the Inn at the Crossroads. Arya said he was bleeding like a stuck pig. Several times it mentioned how bad he is bleeding. She is also concerned about being followed. Sandor said they would only have to follow his blood trail. Later when the thought crosses her mind again she looks back and sees a crow going from branch to branch. (is a crow following them?)

He becomes weak very rather quickly, within a day's ride he can't go any further and she leaves him. She thought she doubted if he could even hold a sword. Also she thought that when the sun went down the wolves would smell the blood on him.

She traveled 6 days to reach the Saltpans. Sandor could not have survived 6 days! If he couldn't hold a sword, he also couldn't crawl to the river for water or defend himself when the wolves and wild dogs found him. So Elder Brother must have found him rather quickly, my guess later that day or possibly the next. But certainly not 6 days!

Arya traveled along the river, mentioning things that she saw on the way, but never mentioning passing a brother. He might have been coming from the Riverlands towards the Quiet Isle, which means he was behind them.

When Elder Brother found and buried the Hound's bloody armor he marked the grave with the helm. When he moved Sandor his travel time was probably a bit slower because of Sandor's condition.

So Arya is still making her way to the Saltpans, and a couple of days behind her is Elder Brother and Sandor.

This is the gap in the timeline which I am still working on. How long did his helm sit there before the raiders found it? I don't think it sat there that long.

• When the Mountain was summonded to fight against the Red Viper. He finished off Vargo and left. Most of the Mummers split into smaller groups and fled, attempting to leave Westeros. At this time, one of the groups rode for the Saltpans to board a ship.

When the raiders arrived at the Inn of the Crossroads they were able to learn that the Hound had killed Polliver & Tickler. They killed the innkeep.

As they continued on to the Saltpans from the Inn, they found the Hound's helm.

When they arrived at the Saltpans one was wearing the Hound's helm. Frustrated that they missed the ship, they sack the town.

When Brienne arrives there is a gravedigger at work on a grave for Brother Clement. He was in the Saltpans selling mead when it was attacked and died from his wounds.

Also Elder Brother mentioned that there was another Brother killed by the raiders, Septon Bennet. Because of that there was no septon to hear confessions. He asked if Septon Meribald could stay and hear confessions. I wonder if Sandor confessed to Septon Meribald?

When Brienne got to the Saltpans the air still smelled of smoke.

As Brienne and her group was heading to the Inn of the Crossroads for shelter, Septon Bennet informed her about who had the inn now. He said he learned that information from Elder Brother (how did he know?)

While at the Inn, Septon Meribald's dog, Dog, was curious about the bloodstains when the Hound killed Polliver & Tickler. Even though the floor was scrubbed and was now crawling with kid, the blood was still had enough scent to attract the dog's nose.

While outside talking to Gendry, who was working the forge, a band of riders came in, one wearing the Hound's helm. They looked like they had come from a battle, and one horse was blown. The Brotherhood Without Banners were hunting them and hot on their heels. Brienne tried to defend the orphans, with Gendry's help.

I would also like to point out Elder Brother again. He was inland, far too inland. It appears that he travels out into the Riverlands on a regular basis. I think that because after the Hound killed Polliver, the raiders came by and killed the innkeep on their way to the Saltpans. Later the inn was taken over by orphans and Gendry, a member of the Brotherhood Without Banners, was stationed there, making sure the kids were safe. Septon Meribald told Brienne he knew about the orphans being there because Elder Brother informed him of it - how would he know? It only got taken over by orphans after he found the Hound, which meant that he made a return trip to the area, or someone traveled to the island and told him about it. He also convinced Brienne that Sansa did not go up the Trident. How could he have known that? She just mentioned it while trying to decide where to go after the Inn at the Crossroads. But there just is something going on with Elder Brother. He knows too much.

Ok the last thing...

Since the Mummers broke up and fled after the Mountain got called to King's Landing, and that Rorge was headed for the Saltpans, I think the timeline was pretty tight. If the Hound was wounded and brought to the island and his helm only laid there for a week or two before it was stolen, that means his wound was still healing when Brienne saw him. He was there less than a month. If so, he might not have been able to confess to Brother Bennet before he was killed. And I don't remember if Brother Bennet was in the Sept at the Saltpans (most likely) or lived on Quiet Isle. But at any rate, "if" Sandor didn't have a chance to confess to a Septon and since Elder Brother said he couldn't take confessions, I wonder if Septon Meribald and Dog heard them?

Also, ok this is the last thing...

Dog is weird. He barks at the end of certain sentences as if to agree or to mock. Dogs understand the tone of a person's voice, but not words. And when the raiders rode into the yard at the Inn of the Crossroads, Brienne could hear Dog inside the inn, barking like crazy as if in warning.

Dog reminds me a LOT of Mormont's raven. Not saying he is, but if...well Bloodraven would be wise in using Dog, seeing how he constantly travels the Riverlands he would learn a lot, and he would be with the Septon when people were confessing their sins. So perhaps if, just "if" it were true, he might have heard the Hound confess. And what if that crow on the trail behind Arya was him as well? I have no evidence to back it up, it's just a thought. But Dog is too smart for a normal dog, and it seems like it understands human language, and it barks the way Mormont's raven caws. (it just can't repeat words like a raven, of course) And since Bloodraven is trying to assist Bran & Jon, would he not also at least keep one of those eyes on the girls as well? Or possibly the Hound? Afterall, he was the one that guided Bran's vision and showed the Hound facing Ser Strong.

Ok I just thought of something else, during Cersei's 'walk' she sees:

". . .She saw Ned Stark, and beside him little Sansa with her auburn hair and a shaggy grey dog that might have been her wolf. . ."

How could she mistake a dog for a direwolf? Even a pup? And wolves are not 'shaggy.' I don't know what it means, it just popped in my head.

[Blazfemur]

I sorry, I don't agree with you about Sandor washing up because the raiders stole his helm off his grave. Elder Brother doesn't lie, but he keeps his answers vague. He buried the Hound's armor and clothing, which was pretty bloody, so when he said he put rocks on it to keep the carrion eaters away he wasn't lying. He doesn't lie, that is not the way of a true monk.

But I find your Azor Ahai theory interesting, I love to hear all theories, but please allow me to add something to ponder over. For the theory to be true he would have to be 'born again amist salt and smoke' - then what about the battle of Blackwater Bay? It was salt water and really smoky. He left not because of his fear of fire (that's the shallow view of it), it's was something more. He went back into the riot, when flea bottom was set on fire, to find his beloved horse. He's been in battles before, he rode in Tywin's army to sack King's Landing during Robert's Rebellion. Of course he has a more than healthy fear of fire, but I feel this time he he had more to deal with than just fire. It was that his eyes were finally opened to the truth. He finally saw everything. His whole life, his purpose, why he was even there engaged in fighting, that the people he was fighting for were doing exactly what was done to him by his brother...he saw everything. And at that moment he was changed, at that moment was when the Hound died and Sandor was reborn, admist salt and smoke.

And when he went to Sansa's room and she asked who was winning he answered he only know who was lost, him. And he had lost all. So if he was reborn to enter his 'second life' as Elder Brother said he was, wouldn't that be 'born again'?

A similar thing happened to my older sister, she was in a biker gang and was in a bad wreck that almost killed her. It opened her eyes to where she was going in life and she turned her whole life around. My mother being a religious lady told her that she had just been reborn, that she was a newborn with new eyes and she would have to learn how to live again. She was also giving her caution, saying that she would be tempted to fall back into her old life.

I'm sorry if I am rehashing over things I already mentioned. I don't have time to go back and re-read it all, I'm in the middle of baking cookies. lol.

I don't know about his horse. He loves that horse, so I don't know if they would destroy it. Also it's personality is much like Sandor's personality, so to me if Sandor is still worthy of saving, why not his horse? Brother Narbert? was it? said that the men come there to escape the horrors of the world. Also septon Meribald mentions this as well. He gives a speech to Brienne about when a man is broken, how he started out with the best of intentions but war slowly turned him into a beast. But he feels pity for broken men and when he finds them he asks if they want to go to the Quiet Isle. It sort of sounded like a metaphor for Sandor, I need to re-read a lot of chapters.

Ok so here is a rough timeline:

• Sandor recieves major injuries at the Inn at the Crossroads. Arya said he was bleeding like a stuck pig. Several times it mentioned how bad he is bleeding. She is also concerned about being followed. Sandor said they would only have to follow his blood trail. Later when the thought crosses her mind again she looks back and sees a crow going from branch to branch. (is a crow following them?)

He becomes weak very rather quickly, within a day's ride he can't go any further and she leaves him. She thought she doubted if he could even hold a sword. Also she thought that when the sun went down the wolves would smell the blood on him.

She traveled 6 days to reach the Saltpans. Sandor could not have survived 6 days! If he couldn't hold a sword, he also couldn't crawl to the river for water or defend himself when the wolves and wild dogs found him. So Elder Brother must have found him rather quickly, my guess later that day or possibly the next. But certainly not 6 days!

Arya traveled along the river, mentioning things that she saw on the way, but never mentioning passing a brother. He might have been coming from the Riverlands towards the Quiet Isle, which means he was behind them.

When Elder Brother found and buried the Hound's bloody armor he marked the grave with the helm. When he moved Sandor his travel time was probably a bit slower because of Sandor's condition.

So Arya is still making her way to the Saltpans, and a couple of days behind her is Elder Brother and Sandor.

This is the gap in the timeline which I am still working on. How long did his helm sit there before the raiders found it? I don't think it sat there that long.

• When the Mountain was summonded to fight against the Red Viper. He finished off Vargo and left. Most of the Mummers split into smaller groups and fled, attempting to leave Westeros. At this time, one of the groups rode for the Saltpans to board a ship.

When the raiders arrived at the Inn of the Crossroads they were able to learn that the Hound had killed Polliver & Tickler. They killed the innkeep.

As they continued on to the Saltpans from the Inn, they found the Hound's helm.

When they arrived at the Saltpans one was wearing the Hound's helm. Frustrated that they missed the ship, they sack the town.

When Brienne arrives there is a gravedigger at work on a grave for Brother Clement. He was in the Saltpans selling mead when it was attacked and died from his wounds.

Also Elder Brother mentioned that there was another Brother killed by the raiders, Septon Bennet. Because of that there was no septon to hear confessions. He asked if Septon Meribald could stay and hear confessions. I wonder if Sandor confessed to Septon Meribald?

When Brienne got to the Saltpans the air still smelled of smoke.

As Brienne and her group was heading to the Inn of the Crossroads for shelter, Septon Bennet informed her about who had the inn now. He said he learned that information from Elder Brother (how did he know?)

While at the Inn, Septon Meribald's dog, Dog, was curious about the bloodstains when the Hound killed Polliver & Tickler. Even though the floor was scrubbed and was now crawling with kid, the blood was still had enough scent to attract the dog's nose.

While outside talking to Gendry, who was working the forge, a band of riders came in, one wearing the Hound's helm. They looked like they had come from a battle, and one horse was blown. The Brotherhood Without Banners were hunting them and hot on their heels. Brienne tried to defend the orphans, with Gendry's help.

I would also like to point out Elder Brother again. He was inland, far too inland. It appears that he travels out into the Riverlands on a regular basis. I think that because after the Hound killed Polliver, the raiders came by and killed the innkeep on their way to the Saltpans. Later the inn was taken over by orphans and Gendry, a member of the Brotherhood Without Banners, was stationed there, making sure the kids were safe. Septon Meribald told Brienne he knew about the orphans being there because Elder Brother informed him of it - how would he know? It only got taken over by orphans after he found the Hound, which meant that he made a return trip to the area, or someone traveled to the island and told him about it. He also convinced Brienne that Sansa did not go up the Trident. How could he have known that? She just mentioned it while trying to decide where to go after the Inn at the Crossroads. But there just is something going on with Elder Brother. He knows too much.

Ok the last thing...

Since the Mummers broke up and fled after the Mountain got called to King's Landing, and that Rorge was headed for the Saltpans, I think the timeline was pretty tight. If the Hound was wounded and brought to the island and his helm only laid there for a week or two before it was stolen, that means his wound was still healing when Brienne saw him. He was there less than a month. If so, he might not have been able to confess to Brother Bennet before he was killed. And I don't remember if Brother Bennet was in the Sept at the Saltpans (most likely) or lived on Quiet Isle. But at any rate, "if" Sandor didn't have a chance to confess to a Septon and since Elder Brother said he couldn't take confessions, I wonder if Septon Meribald and Dog heard them?

Also, ok this is the last thing...

Dog is weird. He barks at the end of certain sentences as if to agree or to mock. Dogs understand the tone of a person's voice, but not words. And when the raiders rode into the yard at the Inn of the Crossroads, Brienne could hear Dog inside the inn, barking like crazy as if in warning.

Dog reminds me a LOT of Mormont's raven. Not saying he is, but if...well Bloodraven would be wise in using Dog, seeing how he constantly travels the Riverlands he would learn a lot, and he would be with the Septon when people were confessing their sins. So perhaps if, just "if" it were true, he might have heard the Hound confess. And what if that crow on the trail behind Arya was him as well? I have no evidence to back it up, it's just a thought. But Dog is too smart for a normal dog, and it seems like it understands human language, and it barks the way Mormont's raven caws. (it just can't repeat words like a raven, of course) And since Bloodraven is trying to assist Bran & Jon, would he not also at least keep one of those eyes on the girls as well? Or possibly the Hound? Afterall, he was the one that guided Bran's vision and showed the Hound facing Ser Strong.

Ok I just thought of something else, during Cersei's 'walk' she sees:

". . .She saw Ned Stark, and beside him little Sansa with her auburn hair and a shaggy grey dog that might have been her wolf. . ."

How could she mistake a dog for a direwolf? Even a pup? And wolves are not 'shaggy.' I don't know what it means, it just popped in my head.

Dog did seem to have a certain personality, though I dont want to jump into Bloodraven warging him. I find whenever there's an animal involved, the first thought that pops into ANYone's head is, "oh, clearly it's bloodrave and clearly bloodraven is choosing this particular animal."

lmao bloodraven isnt EVERY animal in westeros, as the common idea seems to entail.

but i do think Dog, was meant to symbolize more than just being a dog, he seems do have a personality trait, and the connection between him and Meribald is similar to Mormont/Mormonts Raven.

again though, while i think the presence of Dog and the purpose of Dog is meant to mean something more than just an ordinary canine, i think that purpose and meaning is simpler than a warged animal.

[Margaret Ballinger]

Agree. I'm not convinced, but it's just something odd I noticed.

I do believe there is something more to Elder Brother. He just knows too much. He also convinced Brienne not to look for Sansa or Arya upriver as they were not there. How in the heck could he claim that? If he was friendly with the Brotherhood Without Banners it would explain it, since they were in small parties seaching "all up and down the Trident" for Arya. At any rate, the Hound told that Arya was heading towards the Saltpans, and as far as he knew she was heading to her aunt in the Vale.

Elder Brother also now knows that there is a false Arya the Boltons are using to snatch Winterfell. I don't think he would just sit on information like that, he was a former knight afterall, and also there is a great crime being committed. But if he tries to tell of the plot to anyone who could stop it, no one would believe him, not without the 'real' Arya to expose the imposter.

[Blazfemur]

Agree. I'm not convinced, but it's just something odd I noticed.

I do believe there is something more to Elder Brother. He just knows too much. He also convinced Brienne not to look for Sansa or Arya upriver as they were not there. How in the heck could he claim that? If he was friendly with the Brotherhood Without Banners it would explain it, since they were in small parties seaching "all up and down the Trident" for Arya. At any rate, the Hound told that Arya was heading towards the Saltpans, and as far as he knew she was heading to her aunt in the Vale.

Elder Brother also now knows that there is a false Arya the Boltons are using to snatch Winterfell. I don't think he would just sit on information like that, he was a former knight afterall, and also there is a great crime being committed. But if he tries to tell of the plot to anyone who could stop it, no one would believe him, not without the 'real' Arya to expose the imposter.

All in all, Elder Brother is definitely someone more than what he's leading on. I feel he's recuperating Sandor, healing him, and than sandor's ultimate state of being "cured," is him living in peace, without hatred for his brother, and away from the war. id be happy, if we never saw sandor or the gravedigger again, but did get just a smudge of a hint that the gravedigger wasn't lame anymore, and found his meaning in life.

elder brother, however, id like to see in a future novel. i do not think he'll have anything to do with, and he wont orchestrate the gravedigger either, in cersei's trial. for that i want to believe Lancel would have been sworn in by the faith, and his test will be cersei's robert strong. that, or a returning Loras. but definitely not sandor as some theories speculate.

Elder Brother's true identity and purpose, would be something i look forward to. he may still have an agenda

[Lord Wraith]

I used to think the Elder Brother was Ser Richard Lonmouth. Nowadays I'm not sure anymore.

 

 

Elder Brother I believe is Jon Darry formerly of the Kingsguard

Ser Richard Lonmouth might be Lem from the Brotherhood

 

 

All in all, Elder Brother is definitely someone more than what he's leading on. I feel he's recuperating Sandor, healing him, and than sandor's ultimate state of being "cured," is him living in peace, without hatred for his brother, and away from the war. id be happy, if we never saw sandor or the gravedigger again, but did get just a smudge of a hint that the gravedigger wasn't lame anymore, and found his meaning in life.

 

elder brother, however, id like to see in a future novel. i do not think he'll have anything to do with, and he wont orchestrate the gravedigger either, in cersei's trial. for that i want to believe Lancel would have been sworn in by the faith, and his test will be cersei's robert strong. that, or a returning Loras. but definitely not sandor as some theories speculate.

 

Elder Brother's true identity and purpose, would be something i look forward to. he may still have an agenda

 

I agree Lem Lemoncloak is Richard Lonmouth. Jon Darry is the Elder Brother.  Lem's cloak is the one he got from Jon after he departed the QI were they both washed up.